Please review the previous posts in this thread, specifically my post from 2/24. It is called "MILITARY OPERATIONS AREA" for a reason...stick your nose in there when it's HOT without communication with the controlling agency and the result may not be what you intended. When using this special use airspace, the military aircraft in there are working. Although they are monitoring the frequency of the controlling agency, they are also communicating with other participants on other radios. Differing airframes have differing comm configurations based on mission requirements. The A-10, which I flew for the bulk of my military career, has UHF, VHF AM, and VHF FM and it is not uncommon to be communicating on all three with mission participants. Flying military aircraft, specifically fighters during mission employment is a level of operations that cannot be comprehended by those not qualified to do so. Special Use Airspace is the place we get to practice the mission with time and fuel very limited. It's not entitlement, it's our job. When you trundle through the airspace without coordination, military training will cease. Long lost count on how many times we "held high" in the YUKON MOA because someone thought getting the TP and tampons out to the village was more important than the military training being accomplished. This during a Red Flag with airspace NOTAM'ed "high intensity military aircraft surface to FL500". It's quite simple, avoid the active window or coordinate. BTW, I also worked the Yukon MOA's as well as most of the other special use airspace in Alaska in my 180 and Cub for 15 years and NEVER had a conflict with military aircraft. The reason is simple...Communication and coordination.

TR

I agree, and it’s much easier to not conflict when we are all in the same sheet of music, VHF/ADSB etc

No one can understand anyone else’s mission till they do it, ok, I can agree with that.

Now that being said I’ve shut down hot restricteds many a time doing medevac flights, they were happy to do it as for all they knew it could have been their kid in the back of my aircraft. On the flip side, was happy to avoid the MOAs as long, as it was reasonable, and we never used medevac status unless we were transporting the pt, or on my way to pick up the pt.

All that being said, I think if a state aircraft is anywhere in the US where a non participating aircraft could legally go it, needs to be on VHF and with ADSB on.

We had a fighter jet come up on us in the Lemoore MOA the other day. We had just eaten lunch at Woodlake Airport near the entrance to Sequoia Park and we were heading back home at 6500 in a 182. Great place to get lunch and pretty cool to see the jet.

TR wrote:Please review the previous posts in this thread, specifically my post from 2/24. It is called "MILITARY OPERATIONS AREA" for a reason...stick your nose in there when it's HOT without communication with the controlling agency and the result may not be what you intended. When using this special use airspace, the military aircraft in there are working. Although they are monitoring the frequency of the controlling agency, they are also communicating with other participants on other radios. Differing airframes have differing comm configurations based on mission requirements. The A-10, which I flew for the bulk of my military career, has UHF, VHF AM, and VHF FM and it is not uncommon to be communicating on all three with mission participants. Flying military aircraft, specifically fighters during mission employment is a level of operations that cannot be comprehended by those not qualified to do so. Special Use Airspace is the place we get to practice the mission with time and fuel very limited. It's not entitlement, it's our job. When you trundle through the airspace without coordination, military training will cease. Long lost count on how many times we "held high" in the YUKON MOA because someone thought getting the TP and tampons out to the village was more important than the military training being accomplished. This during a Red Flag with airspace NOTAM'ed "high intensity military aircraft surface to FL500". It's quite simple, avoid the active window or coordinate. BTW, I also worked the Yukon MOA's as well as most of the other special use airspace in Alaska in my 180 and Cub for 15 years and NEVER had a conflict with military aircraft. The reason is simple...Communication and coordination.

TR

So, how are we supposed to communicate with the controlling agency when the military singularly refuses to install communications equipment in or around MOAs for this purpose? Yes, many of the smaller SUAs do have comms available, but consider the Powder River MOAs in eastern Montana, North and South Dakota?

In fact, in most of THOSE SUAs, the military aircraft also are not communicating with the controlling agency, because they too are out of range of any receivers.

And, "go around" one of those MOAs?? I don't carry enough gas to go around the Powder River MOAs. And, gas stations are kinda few out there. Those MOAs are hundreds of miles on each side.

The ONLY reason the Eastern Alaska MOA Complex (which includes the Yukon MOAs) have communications out in the airspace, and that Eielson Range Control provides information to everyone, military and civilian, is because the civilian aviators WANTED to communicate with the military out there, but there was no way to do so, and the Air Force steadfastly refused. Senator Stevens explained in no uncertain terms to the AF that if they wanted those MOAs enlarged, they'd need to provide communications outlets out IN those huge MOAs, and the Air Force did so. That system has worked extremely well, and helped to avoid a lot of disruptions. You seem to forget that villagers in Eagle have just as much right to travel through that airspace as does the military.....whenever they choose to do so. In my experience, after the AF provided communications out there, most pilots used the service.

But, convince the Air Force to install communications capabilties out in the Dakotas and Montana? Radio silence. The only way to communicate with their controllers out there is via phone. If you have cell coverage. The military aircraft, at least the ones at the altitudes where we're apt to meet them, can't communicate with the controlling authority either, over most of those huge MOAs.

mtv wrote:

TR wrote:Please review the previous posts in this thread, specifically my post from 2/24. It is called "MILITARY OPERATIONS AREA" for a reason...stick your nose in there when it's HOT without communication with the controlling agency and the result may not be what you intended. When using this special use airspace, the military aircraft in there are working. Although they are monitoring the frequency of the controlling agency, they are also communicating with other participants on other radios. Differing airframes have differing comm configurations based on mission requirements. The A-10, which I flew for the bulk of my military career, has UHF, VHF AM, and VHF FM and it is not uncommon to be communicating on all three with mission participants. Flying military aircraft, specifically fighters during mission employment is a level of operations that cannot be comprehended by those not qualified to do so. Special Use Airspace is the place we get to practice the mission with time and fuel very limited. It's not entitlement, it's our job. When you trundle through the airspace without coordination, military training will cease. Long lost count on how many times we "held high" in the YUKON MOA because someone thought getting the TP and tampons out to the village was more important than the military training being accomplished. This during a Red Flag with airspace NOTAM'ed "high intensity military aircraft surface to FL500". It's quite simple, avoid the active window or coordinate. BTW, I also worked the Yukon MOA's as well as most of the other special use airspace in Alaska in my 180 and Cub for 15 years and NEVER had a conflict with military aircraft. The reason is simple...Communication and coordination.

TR

So, how are we supposed to communicate with the controlling agency when the military singularly refuses to install communications equipment in or around MOAs for this purpose? Yes, many of the smaller SUAs do have comms available, but consider the Powder River MOAs in eastern Montana, North and South Dakota?

In fact, in most of THOSE SUAs, the military aircraft also are not communicating with the controlling agency, because they too are out of range of any receivers.

And, "go around" one of those MOAs?? I don't carry enough gas to go around the Powder River MOAs. And, gas stations are kinda few out there. Those MOAs are hundreds of miles on each side.

The ONLY reason the Eastern Alaska MOA Complex (which includes the Yukon MOAs) have communications out in the airspace, and that Eielson Range Control provides information to everyone, military and civilian, is because the civilian aviators WANTED to communicate with the military out there, but there was no way to do so, and the Air Force steadfastly refused. Senator Stevens explained in no uncertain terms to the AF that if they wanted those MOAs enlarged, they'd need to provide communications outlets out IN those huge MOAs, and the Air Force did so. That system has worked extremely well, and helped to avoid a lot of disruptions. You seem to forget that villagers in Eagle have just as much right to travel through that airspace as does the military.....whenever they choose to do so. In my experience, after the AF provided communications out there, most pilots used the service.

But, convince the Air Force to install communications capabilties out in the Dakotas and Montana? Radio silence. The only way to communicate with their controllers out there is via phone. If you have cell coverage. The military aircraft, at least the ones at the altitudes where we're apt to meet them, can't communicate with the controlling authority either, over most of those huge MOAs.

In my 23 years of flying fighter and rotary wing aircraft in the USAF, I do not recall ever operating in Special Use Airspace (SUA) without clearance to do so by the controlling agency. Therefore, by definition the controlling agency is aware when the airspace is active and when it is not. This is my point, very similar to a line of embedded thunderstorms which are not present at all times. Choose that route when the storm is not present. It is good Risk Management and Decision Making.

Your logic of not having enough fuel to go around is not sound. If there were a line of embedded storms in your path would you still enter that storm due to "not enough fuel to go around"? Entering airspace with known fighter activity is akin to the aforementioned. These aircraft are covering distances horizontally and vertically at high rates of speed. Do some math...Knots times 1.69 equals feet per second. Some SUA may allow supersonic flight as well. In regions where radio communication is not possible, one may have to contact the controlling agency via landline to determine scheduled status, just as you should be doing with weather related decisions.

The system is not perfect; however, good preflight planning can mitigate risk. And no, Joe Bag O' Donuts does not have the right to disrupt a months prior coordinated large force exercise including foreign nation aircraft that is NOTAM'ed as such. I did not think it required stating, however, it appears it does; Med-Evac, non-participating in-flight emergencies and other life-threatening perils ALWAYS take precedence.

Be thankful for the freedoms of flight we have and cut the military some slack, the line flyers are just going where they are told to hone the skills they require to fly, fight and win. My objective is simply to bring perspective to this topic for those who "don't know what they don't know" ref military activity in SUA. Over and Out

TR

“Be thankful for the freedoms of flight we have and cut the military some slack, the line flyers are just going where they are told to hone the skills they require to fly, fight and win. My objective is simply to bring perspective to this topic for those who "don't know what they don't know" ref military activity in SUA. Over and Out

TR”

Amen, from a retired Navy fighter pilot

TR wrote:

mtv wrote:

TR wrote:Please review the previous posts in this thread, specifically my post from 2/24. It is called "MILITARY OPERATIONS AREA" for a reason...stick your nose in there when it's HOT without communication with the controlling agency and the result may not be what you intended. When using this special use airspace, the military aircraft in there are working. Although they are monitoring the frequency of the controlling agency, they are also communicating with other participants on other radios. Differing airframes have differing comm configurations based on mission requirements. The A-10, which I flew for the bulk of my military career, has UHF, VHF AM, and VHF FM and it is not uncommon to be communicating on all three with mission participants. Flying military aircraft, specifically fighters during mission employment is a level of operations that cannot be comprehended by those not qualified to do so. Special Use Airspace is the place we get to practice the mission with time and fuel very limited. It's not entitlement, it's our job. When you trundle through the airspace without coordination, military training will cease. Long lost count on how many times we "held high" in the YUKON MOA because someone thought getting the TP and tampons out to the village was more important than the military training being accomplished. This during a Red Flag with airspace NOTAM'ed "high intensity military aircraft surface to FL500". It's quite simple, avoid the active window or coordinate. BTW, I also worked the Yukon MOA's as well as most of the other special use airspace in Alaska in my 180 and Cub for 15 years and NEVER had a conflict with military aircraft. The reason is simple...Communication and coordination.

TR

So, how are we supposed to communicate with the controlling agency when the military singularly refuses to install communications equipment in or around MOAs for this purpose? Yes, many of the smaller SUAs do have comms available, but consider the Powder River MOAs in eastern Montana, North and South Dakota?

In fact, in most of THOSE SUAs, the military aircraft also are not communicating with the controlling agency, because they too are out of range of any receivers.

And, "go around" one of those MOAs?? I don't carry enough gas to go around the Powder River MOAs. And, gas stations are kinda few out there. Those MOAs are hundreds of miles on each side.

The ONLY reason the Eastern Alaska MOA Complex (which includes the Yukon MOAs) have communications out in the airspace, and that Eielson Range Control provides information to everyone, military and civilian, is because the civilian aviators WANTED to communicate with the military out there, but there was no way to do so, and the Air Force steadfastly refused. Senator Stevens explained in no uncertain terms to the AF that if they wanted those MOAs enlarged, they'd need to provide communications outlets out IN those huge MOAs, and the Air Force did so. That system has worked extremely well, and helped to avoid a lot of disruptions. You seem to forget that villagers in Eagle have just as much right to travel through that airspace as does the military.....whenever they choose to do so. In my experience, after the AF provided communications out there, most pilots used the service.

But, convince the Air Force to install communications capabilties out in the Dakotas and Montana? Radio silence. The only way to communicate with their controllers out there is via phone. If you have cell coverage. The military aircraft, at least the ones at the altitudes where we're apt to meet them, can't communicate with the controlling authority either, over most of those huge MOAs.

In my 23 years of flying fighter and rotary wing aircraft in the USAF, I do not recall ever operating in Special Use Airspace (SUA) without clearance to do so by the controlling agency. Therefore, by definition the controlling agency is aware when the airspace is active and when it is not. This is my point, very similar to a line of embedded thunderstorms which are not present at all times. Choose that route when the storm is not present. It is good Risk Management and Decision Making.

Your logic of not having enough fuel to go around is not sound. If there were a line of embedded storms in your path would you still enter that storm due to "not enough fuel to go around"? Entering airspace with known fighter activity is akin to the aforementioned. These aircraft are covering distances horizontally and vertically at high rates of speed. Do some math...Knots times 1.69 equals feet per second. Some SUA may allow supersonic flight as well. In regions where radio communication is not possible, one may have to contact the controlling agency via landline to determine scheduled status, just as you should be doing with weather related decisions.

The system is not perfect; however, good preflight planning can mitigate risk. And no, Joe Bag O' Donuts does not have the right to disrupt a months prior coordinated large force exercise including foreign nation aircraft that is NOTAM'ed as such. I did not think it required stating, however, it appears it does; Med-Evac, non-participating in-flight emergencies and other life-threatening perils ALWAYS take precedence.

Be thankful for the freedoms of flight we have and cut the military some slack, the line flyers are just going where they are told to hone the skills they require to fly, fight and win. My objective is simply to bring perspective to this topic for those who "don't know what they don't know" ref military activity in SUA. Over and Out

TR

The primary means by which we can communicate with the "controlling agency" as civil aviators is via AFSS. AFSS has NO record of whether there are actually military aircraft operating within a given MOA.....they, and therefore we as civil aviators, are left to go simply by when those MOAs are "hot", which, by definition is daylight hours, five days a week, and otherwise by NOTAM.

So, you're saying we should only fly in eastern Montana, and most of North and South Dakota on weekends, unless of course, the military chooses to NOTAM the MOAs hot then? Sorry, that's ridiculous. A comparison to a line of thunderstorms is ridiculous, and frankly insulting to civilian users of the airspace. If the military needed exclusive use of the airspace, they should apply for Restricted classification.

MOA airspace is by definition Joint Use Airspacea, period. That means civil aviators are NOT required to avoid that airspace nor are they required to ask permission to enter that airspace. In my experience, most military pilots deal with civil aircraft safely. That's the way the airspace is SUPPOSED to work.

I make no effort to get IN anybody's way in an aircraft. Generally, I'm low enough there shouldn't be any military aircraft in my space. But, if I need to fly through a MOA, I'll verify its published activity and go flying if I need to go there.

I spent a LOT of time in the Eastern Alaska MOA Complex, and I always spoke to Range Control entering, and departing, once they established repeaters for that purpose. I've counted moose IN the Eielson bombing ranges, while the ranges were active--again, talking to Range, and exiting when they had someone inbound. That system works great. The system the military has chosen to use in Montana and the Dakotas doesn't work at all. So be it.

mtv wrote:So, you're saying we should only fly in eastern Montana, and most of North and South Dakota on weekends, unless of course, the military chooses to NOTAM the MOAs hot then? Sorry, that's ridiculous. A comparison to a line of thunderstorms is ridiculous, and frankly insulting to civilian users of the airspace. If the military needed exclusive use of the airspace, they should apply for Restricted classification.

Add all of north central Washington to that list.
One of our hangars is in the middle of an MOA. No 1500' exclusion. Also zero repeaters, and spotty cell service so no way to contact FSS or really any controlling authority.
So - what do I do? I don't worry about it and do my best not to hit anything. Frankly I worry more about hitting geese than an F16 or Huey.
Most of the activity is from the survival school at our local air base(the base my dad retired at before anyone accuses me of being anti military). Those choppers have VHF and use it, all good. For the rare occasion the fighters are having fun low level over the river - if they can avoid a goose they can sure avoid a blinking super cub.
Maybe I'm off base, but it seems every time someone lights a cigarette USFS sets up a TFR. I'd think if USAF/USN is going to fill the sky with iron we could do the same if they're worried about Will Bag O'Donuts puttering around at 500-1000AGL.
To be clear I definitely don't go out of my way to get in their way, but I also don't fret too much about flying in some huge MOAs that are generally pretty sleepy.

This is an interesting topic, and clearly one that people feel strongly about. Here is one method that may help in assessing if a MOA is being used- check the notams. The FNS notams search is pretty simple these days, you can use it to view your local MOA, or one you may be traveling through by using the free text search function. Find that button and search for either just the term "MOA" or by typing in the name of your local airspace. For example, you can type in Bison, or Powder River. Once you do that search, click on the filter and apply the date that you are interested in. I searched for 27-28 March and I can see that the Powder River MOA is only actually "scheduled" to be used for a 2.5 hour block, between the hours of 0000-0230Z during that 48 hour search period. This is what it looks like !SUAW 03/465 ZLC AIRSPACE POWDER RIVER 2 HIGH MOA ACT 12000FT UP TO BUT NOT INCLUDING FL180 2503270000-2503270230. As far as I know, most FAA locations will not allow a MOA to be activated if it was not scheduled and subsequently published on the NOTAM site. In other words, even if I am the DOD "owner" of the airspace, if I forget to schedule the airspace with the FAA and just show up in my DOD aircraft and try to activate it, I will be told NO. Sometime this process can be as short as 2 hours prior to use, so if you are truly worried about fast movers running you over, then it would be wise to check the NOTAMs before you fly. Are there problems with this? Yes. Some busy MOAs are scheduled every day, 14 hours a day. Powder River is not one of them. The Barry Goldwater ranges are. If you are worried because your sectional legend says that the MOA is active from 0600-2200 from 100' agl to 17,999' every day, then maybe call on the telephone and ask a briefer for more info. Or use the same internet that you post on this website with and use the notam website. I look forward to the dissenting dialogue that will certainly follow.

And then what? Do us civilians need to stay on the ground on the days the Gubmint says they want to use the area? Last I checked an MOA was legal to fly through even when in use, its not a restricted. And, like MTV stated, flying around some of these MOA's is not feasible, and what if your destination is inside the boundaries?

Seems to me that if they want to fly in airspace open to all, that they need to have the equipment to locate others and communicate. But then, what about the guy flying his cub along doing 90kts with no ADSB and no radio, he's surely not going to run into anyone, but a fighter could easily run him over from any direction.

“And then what?” I think that is a fair and good question. I also think that it reflects the independence and responsibility associated with being a pilot in command. I would suggest that you compile as much info as you feel is necessary and make a decision. Here is some info that I use to make decisions, and this info might be wrong so……
There are very very few operations in MOAs below 500’
There are a bunch of military operations above 5,000’ agl.
Not all MOAs cover the area I like to fly- like the example above, the MOA is only active for 2.5 hours, and only at or above 12,000’.
A lot of fighter type airplanes have the ability to see mode c and altitude reporting so I leave my transponder on.. also those are the rules.


So, my suggestion is that you fly your airplane. Or don’t. Doing this is basic risk assessment or mitigation, just like we should all do before we even push the machines out of the shed. I fly through MOAs often and unapologetically. Would I fly through the MOAs north of vegas during red flag? No chance. Would I fly through the local MOA when the adjacent restricted area is active? Maybe. The short answer is that it is special use VFR airspace, use it when you feel special.

Demanding that another operator in the same VFR airspace install equipment so that they have the responsibility to call you or talk to you is silly. I don’t care what the fighters are doing more than they care what I am doing. Is that a dangerous statement? Maybe. But I feel way safer flying through a MOA in eastern Montana than I do along the front range of Colorado where there are 69 ATP 172s staring at ipads while on the wrong frequency and overflying an airport they didn’t know existed.

silflexer wrote:
Demanding that another operator in the same VFR airspace install equipment so that they have the responsibility to call you or talk to you is silly. I don’t care what the fighters are doing more than they care what I am doing. Is that a dangerous statement? Maybe. But I feel way safer flying through a MOA in eastern Montana than I do along the front range of Colorado where there are 69 ATP 172s staring at ipads while on the wrong frequency and overflying an airport they didn’t know existed.

This is a great point. If we are going to demand the military have VHF and ADS-B, then at what point should the same demand be made of us? So then all the planes flying around with no electrical systems have to figure out a good way to have a VHF and ads-b on board.
These arguments always remind me of a story I was told in Arkansas when doing a prebuy on a 602. I asked why none of the spray planes there had radios, "oh, we don't need radios down here" was the response. Then proceeded to tell me about how the secretaries husband got killed when his spray plane got run over by a jet. Maybe the jet didn't have a vhf either, but the ag plane definitely didn't. I always fell like it'd a midair would be a pretty stupid way to die because I was to cheap or lazy to use my radio. And ADS-B, its awesome. It always amazes me how many planes are around you that you never see.

I’m with MTV & company on this one

I fly in lots of countries for work where the mil (or very powerful mil like gov entities) overly control the sky… and most of everything else, it’s not something we should want to aspire to.

Jefferson knew what was up
“ The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men.”

Times change, sure, but we must remember this is all for the citizens, and if they can’t use their resources to be free in any way they see fit, what’s the point in a military to protect the notion of freedom?

MOAs are a mixed playground, having a way for the 172 to hear/see the F18 is just kinda a “duh” common sense thing, with their budgets and freedoms from the FAA if ADSB in/out and a VHF is too much to ask, I want my money back lol

Heck just toss a tail beacon on and give em a damn handheld with a pigtail connector for all I care, there simply is no excuse worth attempting on this one

TR wrote:Please review the previous posts in this thread, specifically my post from 2/24. It is called "MILITARY OPERATIONS AREA" for a reason...stick your nose in there when it's HOT without communication with the controlling agency and the result may not be what you intended. When using this special use airspace, the military aircraft in there are working. Although they are monitoring the frequency of the controlling agency, they are also communicating with other participants on other radios. Differing airframes have differing comm configurations based on mission requirements. The A-10, which I flew for the bulk of my military career, has UHF, VHF AM, and VHF FM and it is not uncommon to be communicating on all three with mission participants. Flying military aircraft, specifically fighters during mission employment is a level of operations that cannot be comprehended by those not qualified to do so. Special Use Airspace is the place we get to practice the mission with time and fuel very limited. It's not entitlement, it's our job. When you trundle through the airspace without coordination, military training will cease. Long lost count on how many times we "held high" in the YUKON MOA because someone thought getting the TP and tampons out to the village was more important than the military training being accomplished. This during a Red Flag with airspace NOTAM'ed "high intensity military aircraft surface to FL500". It's quite simple, avoid the active window or coordinate. BTW, I also worked the Yukon MOA's as well as most of the other special use airspace in Alaska in my 180 and Cub for 15 years and NEVER had a conflict with military aircraft. The reason is simple...Communication and coordination.

TR

Train in restricted airspace if it’s that critical. “They’re working” is self important BS reasoning. The dude flying TP and tampons is working too. The public doesn’t have to clear the freeways just because a military convoy is “working” driving through. At least for now, most airspace is public, even an MOA, and the military works for the citizens, not the other way around.

Public Service Announcement: The Air Force is hosting some mid-air collision avoidance talks at several FBOs around Arkansas. It sounds like you'll get a chance to look around in a C-130 and ask some questions after the obligatory presentation. It appears you can attend virtually if that's your thing.

The events are listed on the faasafety.gov website. Look for "seminars and webinars" in Arkansas. The ones I see are:

April 25 at XNA
April 25 at FSM
April 25 at LIT
April 26 at BYH

I have no connection to these events other than I get emails from the FAA... I'm just spreading the word. But if you're interested and can't find them, reach out and I'll try to help.