Curious to hear how folks handle operating in MOAs.. not at 5000 with radar service but down low in a cub in a beautiful part of the country with fast mover training to the surface. Anyone have SOPs they want to share?

So,

Interesting question and I would love to hear how others deal with this. We are in a active training area for multiple types of aircraft. We have several MOAs just a few miles away, plus a MTR just Northeast of the strip. The closest MOAs are 6,000+, but the next one over goes to 500agl. When the MOAs are active, I pretty much just keep my eyes open. If I am in something with a transponder, I don't worry too much, but if I am in the Champ, I am definitely more focused. Most of the activity has been high altitude the last couple of years. It's interesting the training seems to go in cycles. Ten years ago it was A-10's down LOW. Lately it's been mock dogfights (Complete with flares) up high. It's the MTRs that kind of freak me out. I have never seen any fighters while in the plane, but have while at the hanger and my house and they are hauling the mail down low. I would say down to 500agl+-. I try to stay out of the route, and cross it perpendicularly with my eyes open, but they don't always follow it exactly. I'm not really sure of the width footprint to be honest. Guess I should know that. The closest encounters I have had has been with Blackhawks. They routinely fly the river valley at varying altitudes. I have had several instances where we were at similar altitudes within a couple of miles of each other. I have given them a wide berth. The closest was when I had two go under me. I was about 300' above this photo in the same spot (It was kind of bumpy, so I stayed out of the valley), when I saw the first one about 500' below me. Looked behind and saw the other right behind it. I am not sure if they saw me or not.



We also have C-17's and C-130's flying low every once in a while. The C-130's especially, although I was on a mountain hunting this fall and watched a C-17 go below me in a river valley. They are not necessarily in the MOA's or MTR's. Guess they just like to train in the mountains. Got no idea how to prepare for those. So, I guess I really don't have a SOP, other than keeping my eyes open.

Pete

I have several MOAs around me. I fly VFR through them all the time, see and avoid, they'll be watching out for you too.

If you intend to fly low in canyons I'd recommend calling ahead and seeing if the MOA is hot and perhaps reconsider if it is.

If I'm flying XC through the area I'll generally grab flight following if it's hot, not feasible low and slow though.

I fly in an MOA just like I fly everywhere else VFR, they aren’t restricted. If the military is using it they can watch for me via ADSB or out their window, just like I’ll be watching for them.

Low and slow and high speed, not been a issue

I fly thru them all the time. I watch for them; they watch for me. Only time I ever had anyone close was about 20 years ago in Juniper 3. I was in a Ford F-350 going across a ridgeline when I got buzzed by an A-10, low enough that he blew the dust off my truck, and I felt his exhaust thru my open window. I was probably the only moving thing in 200 square miles except cows and coyotes, too easy to pass up.

Thanks for the comments. My home zone has some nearby MOA's that seem rarely used so I'm habituated to be casual about whatever is legal. Planning to visit family in Idaho via Owyhee canyon area and stumbled on the Mountain Home GA brief, they don't sound so causal lol. My confidence in see and avoid at <1000' when the other guy is going 400 kts isn't super high. At that speed I'm a stationary object to him and even a mile out there's an only few seconds to do anything. If he was glancing down I'm a flaming hood ornament.

https://iflysun.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... f-2023.pdf

Interestingly sounds like if the fighters radar is active and you are squawking they will see you? Maybe.

Thanks again,
b

Just because "you can" does not translate to "you should". Flying through ACTIVE special use airspace without coordination (MOA in the example cited) is poor risk management and decision making. My suggestion for risk mitigation is DELAY, DEVIATE or COMMMUNICATE. Communication is paramount if you decide your needs to transit the active airspace is of a higher priority than the military training that is occurring during the active time period. By communicating to the controlling agency, you may find the airspace is active, however, not presently being utilized. Interior Alaska has the best procedures in my opinion that mitigate the impacts of special use airspace on general aviation. By communicating on the designated frequency, you may coordinate with a range control officer or hear a recording that lists the status of each special use airspace under its authority. You may even find a flight lead that agrees to give you a transit block for safe deconfliction while transiting the airspace. If a non-communicating aircraft is detected in the active airspace, military training will cease as the users will hold until that non-communicating aircraft is either clear of the airspace or communication for deconfliction is established. Don't be "that guy/gal" that disrupts military training. Their time, due to airspace scheduling and short fuel duration is severely limited. This is my brief advice formed by my 23 years combined flying both fixed and rotary wing aircraft for God and Country in a lot of special use airspace around the world.
TR

Dale Moul wrote:I fly thru them all the time. I watch for them; they watch for me. Only time I ever had anyone close was about 20 years ago in Juniper 3. I was in a Ford F-350 going across a ridgeline when I got buzzed by an A-10, low enough that he blew the dust off my truck, and I felt his exhaust thru my open window. I was probably the only moving thing in 200 square miles except cows and coyotes, too easy to pass up.

When I'm on the ground, the closer the better!

Any experience flying in Jarbidge or Owyhee zones? Any particular guidance or mostly business as usual?

B

TR wrote:Just because "you can" does not translate to "you should". Flying through ACTIVE special use airspace without coordination (MOA in the example cited) is poor risk management and decision making. My suggestion for risk mitigation is DELAY, DEVIATE or COMMMUNICATE. Communication is paramount if you decide your needs to transit the active airspace is of a higher priority than the military training that is occurring during the active time period. By communicating to the controlling agency, you may find the airspace is active, however, not presently being utilized. Interior Alaska has the best procedures in my opinion that mitigate the impacts of special use airspace on general aviation. By communicating on the designated frequency, you may coordinate with a range control officer or hear a recording that lists the status of each special use airspace under its authority. You may even find a flight lead that agrees to give you a transit block for safe deconfliction while transiting the airspace. If a non-communicating aircraft is detected in the active airspace, military training will cease as the users will hold until that non-communicating aircraft is either clear of the airspace or communication for deconfliction is established. Don't be "that guy/gal" that disrupts military training. Their time, due to airspace scheduling and short fuel duration is severely limited. This is my brief advice formed by my 23 years combined flying both fixed and rotary wing aircraft for God and Country in a lot of special use airspace around the world.
TR

Good point on disruption. Those guys spending $100Ks loitering while my slow ass is taking GoPro footage... No thanks.

pburns wrote:So,

Interesting question and I would love to hear how others deal with this. We are in a active training area for multiple types of aircraft. We have several MOAs just a few miles away, plus a MTR just Northeast of the strip. The closest MOAs are 6,000+, but the next one over goes to 500agl. When the MOAs are active, I pretty much just keep my eyes open. If I am in something with a transponder, I don't worry too much, but if I am in the Champ, I am definitely more focused. Most of the activity has been high altitude the last couple of years. It's interesting the training seems to go in cycles. Ten years ago it was A-10's down LOW. Lately it's been mock dogfights (Complete with flares) up high. It's the MTRs that kind of freak me out. I have never seen any fighters while in the plane, but have while at the hanger and my house and they are hauling the mail down low. I would say down to 500agl+-. I try to stay out of the route, and cross it perpendicularly with my eyes open, but they don't always follow it exactly. I'm not really sure of the width footprint to be honest. Guess I should know that. The closest encounters I have had has been with Blackhawks. They routinely fly the river valley at varying altitudes. I have had several instances where we were at similar altitudes within a couple of miles of each other. I have given them a wide berth. The closest was when I had two go under me. I was about 300' above this photo in the same spot (It was kind of bumpy, so I stayed out of the valley), when I saw the first one about 500' below me. Looked behind and saw the other right behind it. I am not sure if they saw me or not.



We also have C-17's and C-130's flying low every once in a while. The C-130's especially, although I was on a mountain hunting this fall and watched a C-17 go below me in a river valley. They are not necessarily in the MOA's or MTR's. Guess they just like to train in the mountains. Got no idea how to prepare for those. So, I guess I really don't have a SOP, other than keeping my eyes open.

Pete

I don't always miss New England, but when I do this is more or less the photo in my head. Great shot.

Flying thru the Owyhee or Jarbridge MOA's you can always contact Cowboy Control on 134.1.

Yeah, I fly those MOAs on a regular basis. You'll have a good chance of seeing some A-10s or Blackhawks. Avoid the restricted airspace, but otherwise nothing out of the ordinary.

The MOAs around my home base don't normally include high speed flights at low level. A quick check with ATC at the Naval Air Station will let me know if the area is hot and if it includes low fliers. That makes crossing the MOA and even the restricted airspace (when it is cold) a no-brainer. What worries me more are the military training routes that crisscross the Cascade Mountains. One of those (VR1355) is close to a popular grass strip in the mountains and the EA-18 Growlers blast through there at high speed at very low level. With their ground hugging flight paths, it's very hard to see them before then are right on top of you. I've come close to soiling myself several times when one of those electronic warfare fighters flashes by in the blink of an eye. Here's a cockpit video of one of those flights from the jet's perspective:

A couple years ago my wife and I were in our little fishing boat on Romrock lake about 2 miles west of the Tieton Airstrip.

This guy flew over us


Then a little bit later this guy

Flyhound wrote:....What worries me more are the military training routes that crisscross the Cascade Mountains. One of those (VR1355) is close to a popular grass strip in the mountains and the EA-18 Growlers blast through there at high speed at very low level. With their ground hugging flight paths, it's very hard to see them before then are right on top of you.....

I was on the ground at Tieton State 4S6 with a buddy a couple years ago watching another buddy take off over the lake.
All of a sudden two Growlers came blasting out of a nearby canyon--
one kinked high to avoid him and the other jinked low.
I later told a young guy I know who flies those growlers out of NAS Whidbey about the incident:
"oh yeah, we fly through there all the time".
That might be SOP for those naval aviators, but it sure scared the shit out of all of us.

I might point out that 4S6 is about 7NM east of the north/south line that depicts VR1355 on the sectional --
these guys were traveling eastbound (roughly 90 degrees to the VR) and getting further away every second,
so IMHO they were no longer on the VR.

BTW Tieton State is where Cub Crafters does a lot of their photo ops, since it's only about 25 NM west of Yakima.

tcj wrote:A couple years ago my wife and I were in our little fishing boat on Romrock lake about 2 miles west of the Tieton Airstrip.

This guy flew over us


Then a little bit later this guy

Pretty sure that was me in the Amphib! We use Rimrock often in the summer to shake out new float installs. I was reading this thread remembering a time I was splashing in Rimrock. Landed on the water, turned around and watched a jet fly over the lake right where I had flown my approach.

I've also been driving up HWY 12 westbound just west of Rimrock and have seen a pair of jets fly up the valley below/even with the road.

The Million Dollar Route

Here's the spots I could identify in the video. Washington people may recognize them too. 0:20 Rimrock lake; 0:45 starting up Indian Cr; 1:31 Blankenship meadow; 1:55 starting down Deep Cr; 2:18 Bumping Lake; 6:55 Keechelus lake off the left wing; 7:21 kachess Lake.

Rimrock to Bumping lake, 15 miles, 1 min 33 seconds = 580 miles per hour. Probably faster with all the turning.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4-VHMkHEUQ

For Pilot Pete, I took these the same day near the island at the head of the lake.

tcj wrote:For Pilot Pete, I took these the same day near the island at the head of the lake.

Niiiice