I am the low time pilot my friend referred to here. I agree that instruction is necessary in order to safely navigate and land in the backcountry. I don't necessarily believe that a set minimum number of hours of flight experience is required. A pilot may have 2,000 hours in cross country flying between low altitude airports but may still not have the skills required for the backcountry. In any activity, it is possible to be relatively new but do it well, as it is possible to be quite experienced and perform poorly. There are, it seems to me, a multitude of skills and attributes required. Specific task abilities and attributes include knowledge of weather, wind patterns, density altitude, navigation, stick and rudder skills, knowledge of terrain, etc. There are also personal attributes such as maturity, judgement, ego, or lack thereof, patience, ability to learn, thoroughness and quickness of thinking, etc, that are quite individual, and not necessarily dependent on experience. I plan on receiving instruction from an experienced backcountry instructor, and will practice the skills required, prior to venturing into the backcountry by myself. I will make sure that the instructor checks me out at all of the strips I plan to access initially. From there I will gradually improve my skills and gradually and carefully access more challenging locations as I advance. I was lucky to have been trained by a highly skilled CFII, who has become a close personal friend and I continue to benefit from his knowledge and wisdom. I also have the Dog's pilot as a close friend, and we plan to do a lot of backcountry flying together. Additionally, I will be very careful because if I crash in the backcountry, my wife will kill me. Thanks for all the replies. I look forward to meeting you in the backcountry. I will let you know in advance so those of you who feel the need have the opportunity to fly quickly away from my location. All the best.

Welcome. I am a CFII who totally agrees with what you have said.

Frankenflaps wrote:I am the low time pilot my friend referred to here. I agree that instruction is necessary in order to safely navigate and land in the backcountry. I don't necessarily believe that a set minimum number of hours of flight experience is required. A pilot may have 2,000 hours in cross country flying between low altitude airports but may still not have the skills required for the backcountry. In any activity, it is possible to be relatively new but do it well, as it is possible to be quite experienced and perform poorly. There are, it seems to me, a multitude of skills and attributes required. Specific task abilities and attributes include knowledge of weather, wind patterns, density altitude, navigation, stick and rudder skills, knowledge of terrain, etc. There are also personal attributes such as maturity, judgement, ego, or lack thereof, patience, ability to learn, thoroughness and quickness of thinking, etc, that are quite individual, and not necessarily dependent on experience. I plan on receiving instruction from an experienced backcountry instructor, and will practice the skills required, prior to venturing into the backcountry by myself. I will make sure that the instructor checks me out at all of the strips I plan to access initially. From there I will gradually improve my skills and gradually and carefully access more challenging locations as I advance. I was lucky to have been trained by a highly skilled CFII, who has become a close personal friend and I continue to benefit from his knowledge and wisdom. I also have the Dog's pilot as a close friend, and we plan to do a lot of backcountry flying together. Additionally, I will be very careful because if I crash in the backcountry, my wife will kill me. Thanks for all the replies. I look forward to meeting you in the backcountry. I will let you know in advance so those of you who feel the need have the opportunity to fly quickly away from my location. All the best.

Good for you. Good attitude displayed, and I have little doubt you’ll work your way toward competence and comfort as you build experience.

And, maintain that healthy fear of your spousal unit. She might take away the key to the plane.....a fate worse than death......

Fly safe and enjoy every minute of it. Start with some of the strips close to home like Schafer Meadows.

MTV

Frankenflaps wrote:I agree that instruction is necessary in order to safely navigate and land in the backcountry.

Interesting the differing options on this topic, I definitely don't disagree, all the advise given in this thread is very good advise just different perspectives from different experiences. I'm not necessarily talking about these specific flying areas mentioned or this specific pilot either but I'm going to go ahead and say that generally although instruction is a great idea before heading into the mountains and backcountry its not absolutely necessary if its not available to you.

Sounds like Frankenflaps has access to good instruction and experienced pilots, that are keen to fly with him and take him into the backcountry which is great, why wouldn't a pilot take advantage of that, if you have that awesome. However lots of people don't have access to that type of experience and I wouldn't scare them off getting out there but encourage it. It seems to me the difference is mainly that some people do need lots of instruction before being put in new situations and terrain, that's fine, just be aware of that and get it. Some have naturally good instincts and can figure it out for themselves, which is a great skill to have, be aware of that as well without being cocky.

I also think mountain flying is sometimes made out to be a complex science only for the truly experienced ace pilots with all the answers, a place where the inexperienced are sure to crash, it's not and can be quite simple. You don't have to know everything all at once, just know the basics and do your homework. Like any other flying, really all you have to know is your limits and the aircraft well and you'll stay safe. If all you know is 5000 ft long blacktop in the flat lands, organize a trip to a smaller mountain airport with obstacles either end and practice before hitting a bush strip, kind of obvious I think. If you feel uncomfortable close to terrain or feel that uneasy feeling building up don't do it, build up to it slowly in wider terrain and build up your confidence. If you feel that, "I'm awesome" ego creeping in, stop, check yourself and assess what your doing, if that feeling is after landing, pat yourself on the back, enjoy it but check your ego again before take off. If the aircraft is not responding as you expect it to, or you find yourself behind the aircraft, maybe you don't know it as well as you thought, go practice that attitude, altitude, maneuver, whatever somewhere safe. If some rotor currents, down drafts, DA or whatever unnerve you, stop somewhere and wait for smoother air, cooler air, go higher, go home, go test it again a little higher, different angle or whatever makes you feel more confident. Always think about your A and B exit strategy, or C if possible, if you only have an A option be well aware of it. You get the idea anyway, it's all very logical and is like anything else, just about keeping within your limits and analyzing yourself and the situation constantly but also confidently and being aware not to become complacent or ignorant. Realize the risks, don't ignore them and keep asking yourself the right questions, went on a bit too long here I guess but that would be my 2 cents to someone looking to get out there into unfamiliar territory.

Great post Rogue. It's true that theres not always good instruction available. I didnt have access to one and self taught. It is about respect of skills and aircraft ability. I learned a couple lessons along the way, but nothing to serious, enough to check the ego real good though.
If you hav good instruction I'd say take it for sure. But not having it doesn't mean you can't learn it...

A1Skinner wrote:Great post Rogue. It's true that theres not always good instruction available. I didnt have access to one and self taught. It is about respect of skills and aircraft ability. I learned a couple lessons along the way, but nothing to serious, enough to check the ego real good though.
If you hav good instruction I'd say take it for sure. But not having it doesn't mean you can't learn it...

Also self taught, there are no backcountry instructors in Costa Rica, read a lot ,practice a lot, step by step, respect terrain, conditions ,your limits and the airplane's limits I had lots of fun doing it and keep learning, you are never done learning.

One advantage of self taught is you create your own limits depending on how you progress, and its not the instructor giving you those limits.
Takes discipline.

So yes it can be done,but as others have said some practice before going should be needed, be precise in landing, so no excess speed and floating. Amount of hrs not necessarily means that much, I have a couple of friends that together they have 4,000hrs and will land on grass (Cessna 172's).

Let us know how it goes.

Frankenflaps,

If you go through motoadve's videos from the beginning you will see real progress. Notice staying in low ground effect longer and climbing at less pitch up (closer to trees) as he progresses. Energy efficiency. Notice that the apparent rate of closure, on short final, does not speed up. Compare to the apparent rate of closure of small airplanes landing at your local airport, and the loud relative wind noise.

Contact

To follow on what some others have said, flying into the backcountry is part preparation and competence, part respect and a healthy fear of the unknown/unconventional. Adhering to the mindset of "I don't know what I don't know" has always served me well; keeping an open mind and constantly processing new information and second guessing what I see. It's strange dual existence, because on the other hand, you have to operate with confidence and just do some things without hesitation despite them seeming a little dangerous at first glance.

Some things, like high density altitude, are really only appreciated in person and in the mountains. You understand from tales related to you, but not really appreciate it.

I'm mostly of the "go poke around by yourself cautiously, make baby steps" philosophy. But make efforts to be prepared and briefed. My biggest fear is doing something unfortunately where later everyone says "how could he not know that?"

Exploring, and learning, by yourself is part of the adventure. Having someone hold your hand for every part of it kinda sucks some of the fun out of it.

I'm in the "get an instructor" camp. Some have said that mountain flying isn't always difficult or dangerous. That's true. The problem is that it can be, and, if you are not experienced or don't have good instruction, you may not know you're in trouble until it's too late. I took instruction the first time I went to McCall in the early '90s, and I've still had close calls with situations I didn't recognize or fully appreciate.

I'd been flying my 182 for 5 years the first time I took it to Idaho. I thought I'd go into Big Creek to do some fishing. I'd read all about it and had my POP for the Skylane committed to memory. Big Creek is a pretty long strip with an upslope. What could be so difficult? Well, I arrived overhead at 10,000' in the early afternoon, looking down at the strip at the bottom of that canyon and wondered how the hell I would ever get down and maneuver around to land there. Fortunately, my yellow stripe activated and I beat it back to McCall, where I was fortunate enough to run into Lyn Clark in the FBO.

I went flying with her after the air settled down that evening and for the next 3 mornings. I thought I'd had good instructors before, but Lyn opened up a whole new world of aircraft handling and performance for me, beginning with test flying the airplane and noting performance in various configurations and power settings. That lead to developing a book of numbers that work for that airplane with that load (and can be modified for different loads) and provided a critical foundation for flying consistent steep, stabilized approaches and max performance takeoffs. We then went to Donnelly (no canyon, just trees) to develop the skills around what I've learned about how the airplane liked to be flown. Once I was comfortable with the fundamentals, we headed into the Frank, where Lyn acquainted me with landmarks and the idiosyncracies of each airstrip and approach. Even the "easy" ones have their special attributes that are worth noting and remembering. These are not things that I was likely to pick up on my own without having years to experience varying conditions. I still keep notes and refer to them.

Since I'm not fortunate enough to live in Idaho, I have to tune up every time I visit. I get up before dawn, leave the family in the motel room, and head out to do some stalls, then to Donnelly, practicing steep, stable approaches and max performance takeoffs before picking up the family and heading out into the Frank. The bottom line for me is that reading and studying up are necessary, but not sufficient if you want to fly the backcountry safely. The self-teaching incremental approach can work, but I don't see why one would choose to do that when there are wellsprings of knowledge and experience who will fly with you in your airplane in the very country that you want to explore. Yes, it can be expensive, but so is flying, and how much is your safety and the safety of your loved-ones worth?

My $.02

CAVU

Frankenflaps wrote:I am the low time pilot my friend referred to here. I agree that instruction is necessary in order to safely navigate and land in the backcountry. I don't necessarily believe that a set minimum number of hours of flight experience is required. A pilot may have 2,000 hours in cross country flying between low altitude airports but may still not have the skills required for the backcountry. In any activity, it is possible to be relatively new but do it well, as it is possible to be quite experienced and perform poorly. There are, it seems to me, a multitude of skills and attributes required. Specific task abilities and attributes include knowledge of weather, wind patterns, density altitude, navigation, stick and rudder skills, knowledge of terrain, etc. There are also personal attributes such as maturity, judgement, ego, or lack thereof, patience, ability to learn, thoroughness and quickness of thinking, etc, that are quite individual, and not necessarily dependent on experience. I plan on receiving instruction from an experienced backcountry instructor, and will practice the skills required, prior to venturing into the backcountry by myself. I will make sure that the instructor checks me out at all of the strips I plan to access initially. From there I will gradually improve my skills and gradually and carefully access more challenging locations as I advance. I was lucky to have been trained by a highly skilled CFII, who has become a close personal friend and I continue to benefit from his knowledge and wisdom. I also have the Dog's pilot as a close friend, and we plan to do a lot of backcountry flying together. Additionally, I will be very careful because if I crash in the backcountry, my wife will kill me. Thanks for all the replies. I look forward to meeting you in the backcountry. I will let you know in advance so those of you who feel the need have the opportunity to fly quickly away from my location. All the best.

I've got similar time to you, and couldn't agree more with your thinking. I have a few more hours MM in my airplane as a % of my overall time, but the general focus on TT is deceptive - spending some time with Contact Flying, then showing up and flying with Lori MacNichol & Rich Bush at McCall Canyon Flying, was a transformative experience for my flying, and the collective 12 hours of dual I have with those three, in addition to another 10 hours or so exploring the areas they showed me on my own, taught me much more than the prior 100 hours flying in the lowlands.

I went into JC without getting prior instruction my first day near McCall, and while it was by no means "hair raising," the difference in how I flew my first approach in there vs. how I flew back in the following day with 4 hours dual with Lori under my belt was pretty telling.

Each night as I'd get back to Johnson Creek after flying with instruction, and far more experienced than I sitting around the campfire (lots of 5000+ hr ATP guys) would ask about the details of the training I was going through, because the mountain experience was different than what they usually flew, and they knew their limits. It was an interesting experience though to enjoy landings everywhere from Big Creek to Wilson Bar, and another nearly dozen spots, during my first trip out to Idaho, when most of those guys who hadn't booked instruction ahead of time weren't able to head into these spots - they generally had higher performance planes, and far more hours, but they knew they didn't have the critical instruction needed to safely start exploring the rest of the strips around JC safely. Smart choices, which is why they have so many hours accident free.