My Water Flying issue came yesterday--great article by MTV on the dangers and how to address them of amphibs. Mike's discussion seems to boil down to doing a gear-position check at least 3 times in the pattern, and avoid being distracted by passengers or anything else during that period of time--the "sterile cockpit" rule. He mentions that a good way to enforce the "sterile cockpit" rule is simply turn off the passengers, as can be done with many modern audio panel intercoms. He also recommends using a standard rectangular pattern rather than an abbreviated pattern, as a means of defining where to do each gear check. These are all good pieces of advice for all of us, whether amphib or retract or fixed gear flyers.

I've never flown an amphib, and my overall float flying experience is pretty limited, but doing GUMPS x 3 served me well when I was flying retracts. So well, that although I haven't flown a retract in more than 15 years, I still do GUMPS x 3. I did it flying floats last summer, to remind me to check that the water rudders were up. I hope that if ever I have a chance to fly amphibs, GUMPS x 3 will work for me then.

Cary

SA Maule wrote:Is the article available on line? I am very curious about float flying, one of the things on my bucket list, definitely won't find a copy of the water flying mag in SA

Sorry, the mag is only available in print and only if you join the Seaplane Pilots Association. http://www.seaplanes.org/Water-Flying-Magazine.html

Cary

SA Maule wrote:Don't think I qualify

All it takes is money!

Cary

SA Maule wrote:Money is not the problem, we don't have a functional postal service in SA, they are now trying to catch up after a 4 month strike, haven't received any of my flying or hunting magazines in months

Was it functional 20 years ago. What changed?

Tim

MTV, congrats. You have a talent for articulating your knowledge and experience and we're lucky to have you around these parts as a contributor.

Cary wrote:My Water Flying issue came yesterday--great article by MTV on the dangers and how to address them of amphibs.

Dammit, Cary - you beat me to it!

I really enjoyed the article, MTV!!

When I first started flying the Bush Hawk, I put together a great checklist, along with all of the emergency procedures, in a single flip-style book. On the back cover of that is my passenger briefing card. It only takes a few minutes to go through it, but there are a few things new seaplane passengers absolutely NEED to know - in normal ops and especially in the event of an upset - and it also establishes that I expect them to be a helpful crew member during takeoff and landing with respect to gear position verification and sterile cockpit operations during those times. My experience has been that when people are briefed this way, they tend to take it pretty seriously and are much more of a help than a hindrance in the pattern.

I've had or made good checklists for every GA aircraft I've ever flown, but in the pattern area I use a thoughtful (not rushed) mental checklist flow with GUMPS integrated into it on downwind, base and final. It works well for me, and makes me ask the question about gear position (and then verify the answer!) several times before landing.

It was really nice to see some of the things I've been doing for years reinforced by someone with much more experience with amphibs! I look forward to seeing more of your articles in Water Flying, Mike.

Thanks, Guys. I really appreciate the feedback. I really fear that this issue could severely restrict future float flyers due to the expense of insurance. The Lake fiasco many years ago came very close to putting the company out of business, and very many more of these incidents with amphibs and they could very well go the same direction.

I've talked to several pilots who've been involved in one of these deals after the fact. I don't consider a single one of those folks a "bad" pilot.....mostly they just got distracted. I can just about guarantee that none of them will go there again, though.

For the record, one of those gents was a VERY senior 777 Captain. So, this isn't just the exclusive realm of "recreational" pilots, either.

I have never doubted for a moment that I couldn't land in the water with the gear down in an amphib. I hope I never do, but there is always that possibility.....and the associated paranoia.

Thanks again,

MTV

mtv wrote:Thanks, Guys. I really appreciate the feedback. I really fear that this issue could severely restrict future float flyers due to the expense of insurance. The Lake fiasco many years ago came very close to putting the company out of business, and very many more of these incidents with amphibs and they could very well go the same direction.

I've talked to several pilots who've been involved in one of these deals after the fact. I don't consider a single one of those folks a "bad" pilot.....mostly they just got distracted. I can just about guarantee that none of them will go there again, though.

For the record, one of those gents was a VERY senior 777 Captain. So, this isn't just the exclusive realm of "recreational" pilots, either.

I have never doubted for a moment that I couldn't land in the water with the gear down in an amphib. I hope I never do, but there is always that possibility.....and the associated paranoia.

Thanks again,

MTV

A little paranoia is a good thing for dangerous activities like flying ... or even driving for that matter!

It sounds like a good article, hopefully I'll get a chance to read it sometime. I love hearing you experienced guys talk about lessons learned.

mtv wrote:....I've talked to several pilots who've been involved in one of these deals after the fact. I don't consider a single one of those folks a "bad" pilot.....mostly they just got distracted. I can just about guarantee that none of them will go there again, though. ....

I know of a local guy who flipped his 185 amphib by landing in the water with the gear down. No one was hurt, insurance paid, airplane got fixed, everything was OK. A couple years later, I saw him taking off from my airport one day. A friend at the next airport west of me reported seeing him fly by with the wheels hanging down. He was no doubt headed home to the grass strip airpark where he lives, so it wasn't like he was headed to a little cove somewhere, but it seemed to me to be bad form (and a bad habit to form) not putting the gear up after takeoff.
Isn't protocol with an amphib to put the wheels up after takeoff, then to 1) check the wheels are still up for a water landing, or 2) put the wheels down for landing on land?

I think it's bad form to leave the gear down on any retract. That would include amphibs. Some think it should be left down when staying in the pattern, but I was taught and subsequently taught that if you're going to develop the procedure of GUMPS x 3, then do it that way every time. It's a form of imprinting.

Cary

mtv wrote:For the record, one of those gents was a VERY senior 777 Captain. So, this isn't just the exclusive realm of "recreational" pilots, either.

MTV

When we were first getting quotes to add me to my dad's insurance for the Bush Hawk, Avemco wanted $14,000 per year!!! The reason they gave was that their number 1 claim category was "airline pilots flying amphib airplanes"...

We eventually went with Falcon for a mere fraction of that.

I like your comment about paranoia - you're not paranoid if the airplanes are out to get you! I fly that way all the time.

Cary wrote:I think it's bad form to leave the gear down on any retract. That would include amphibs. Some think it should be left down when staying in the pattern, but I was taught and subsequently taught that if you're going to develop the procedure of GUMPS x 3, then do it that way every time. It's a form of imprinting.

Cary

Ha ha, when I first started flying my Datum electric retractable skis, I went through that. The drag reduction in being "on" the skis/wheels up made it clear, suck it up as soon as possible. So far I have not landed, mistakenly, on asphalt on skis Though I have landed grass on the skis, on purpose. A non event, but couldn't take off until we scoop shoveled about 40' of snow onto the grass, that got me going and then once out of the snow and on the grass was able to keep accelerating. Fun stuff!

courierguy wrote:

Cary wrote:I think it's bad form to leave the gear down on any retract. That would include amphibs. Some think it should be left down when staying in the pattern, but I was taught and subsequently taught that if you're going to develop the procedure of GUMPS x 3, then do it that way every time. It's a form of imprinting.

Cary

Ha ha, when I first started flying my Datum electric retractable skis, I went through that. The drag reduction in being "on" the skis/wheels up made it clear, suck it up as soon as possible. So far I have not landed, mistakenly, on asphalt on skis Though I have landed grass on the skis, on purpose. A non event, but couldn't take off until we scoop shoveled about 40' of snow onto the grass, that got me going and then once out of the snow and on the grass was able to keep accelerating. Fun stuff!

At least with skis (C3000A) I can switch between wheels and skis on the ground. Totally approved in the STC flight supplement. Can not do that with any amphibs or retract.

Cary wrote:I think it's bad form to leave the gear down on any retract. That would include amphibs. Some think it should be left down when staying in the pattern, but I was taught and subsequently taught that if you're going to develop the procedure of GUMPS x 3, then do it that way every time. It's a form of imprinting.

Cary

I leave them down in the pattern for a few reasons. 1) I usually don't want to go fast again, especially if I'm trying to stay within the 1.3 radius 2) Usually if you're on the go again, you're talking too much putting together another approach. 3) The retractables I fly also have turbo and flaps and cowl flaps to manage. 4) I don't fly gear enough to be super confident that I'll remember to get them down again with everything else going on.

I have amphib envy but have yet to put a single hour in one. I was just watching an Icon this morning. They produced the first production model this Summer.
.

Nosedragger wrote:

Cary wrote:I think it's bad form to leave the gear down on any retract. That would include amphibs. Some think it should be left down when staying in the pattern, but I was taught and subsequently taught that if you're going to develop the procedure of GUMPS x 3, then do it that way every time. It's a form of imprinting.

Cary

I leave them down in the pattern for a few reasons. 1) I usually don't want to go fast again, especially if I'm trying to stay within the 1.3 radius 2) Usually if you're on the go again, you're talking too much putting together another approach. 3) The retractables I fly also have turbo and flaps and cowl flaps to manage. 4) I don't fly gear enough to be super confident that I'll remember to get them down again with everything else going on.

Sorry, I disagree. If you do it the same way every time, you're more likely to do it right every time than if you change methods in the pattern. I don't now have to manage a turbo, but I did for years--TR182 (manual wastegate), Mooney 231 (manual wastegate), T210 (automatic wastegate), all with cowl flaps and flaps and CS props. Same rule for all of them: Gear goes up automatically after take off, gear comes down automatically on downwind, then checked again on base, then checked again on final.

Cary

FWIW, US Navy aircraft leave the gear down while practicing landings. Reinforce your habit patterns by conducting checklists at the same point in the pattern every time. Personally, I conduct a landing checklist at the abeam position and verify "three down and locked" to myself on short final.

I do the same. I call it the career check. I don't know that I'd have much of a flying career left if I landed a good airplane with the gear up.

We do cycle the gear in the pattern in the Army though.

Amphibs are a little different breed of retractable gear aircraft. For that reason, and a few others, I always cycle the gear in the pattern.

For one thing, it makes me THINK about the gear, every landing. It makes me LOOK at the gear, every landing.

If you land most amphibs on a runway with the gear retracted, it just makes a little noise, and it's tough to taxi to the ramp. But, you won't do anywhere near the damage that you would on a "conventional" retractable gear aircraft.

Many moons ago, I was assigned a new Cessna 206 with a brand new set of amphibious floats....as in serial number 3 and 4, as I recall. Those things had some serious hydraulic system issues. The gear system would fail with the gear in transit.

No way I would land one in water with the gear in anything but full up. So, back to the drome, call the tower, and shut down one of their runways for them. Happened more than once.

One fine day, I called the tower five out inbound, and they responded "Roger that, we'll roll the green trucks for ya". I informed them that in fact the gear was working just fine today....thank you very much.

Do what you will with conventional retracts, but for amphibs, the gear comes up as soon as I have positive rate.

If I'm too busy flying the plane to raise the gear, I need to simplify the airplane, not my techniques.

MTV

I'll keep practicing gear management with my inop vor backcourse switch on my fixed gear. I do ok until I get jerked around practicing IFR in busy places. Cancelled clearances, 360's , circle to land, cleared for the visual behind x, land and hold short, all throw me off. I hear in Canada they say cleared to land, check gear.