I am curious what experts think might fit my aircraft search? I am a 1000hr TT commercial pilot with several ratings, but it's been over 15 years since I have been PIC. I live on a small hilly farm with a good flat spot for a tail wheel with STOL capabilities. My location is Eastern WA on the Idaho border. I have recently flown with a 1200hr bush pilot who owns a 180 near me. He is actively flying in Alaska as a bush pilot on the Caravan with two years under his belt. We did a low pass on my proposed landing strip and he said "that is a Kitfox landing strip". I trust his opinion and his experience. I have a local airport where I am on a waiting list for hanger space. Currently half of my barn would work for a Kitfox as the wings fold up.

I am looking at both a Kitfox 3 with a 582 grey engine at 17k and a Kitfox 2 with a 582 blue engine needing overhaul at 10k.

Are these even capable of larger Tundra style tires and landing short? Can a 582 powered Kitfox take off and land short field with large tundra tires? I don't desire to cruise at 110 anymore. I drive a vintage land rover that is slow. For me it is more about the experience than the speed.

Please note that I recognize that I would need extensive CFI training time before I attempted landing at home. My landing strip is 220 yards uphill at a 30 degree upward slope. My departure area is 220 yards 30 degrees downhill. Flat and maintained of course.

My location and the barn being available makes me lean to a Kitfox. I am 6' and 190. most of my potential passengers are under 230lbs.

My budget allows for a different aircraft but I personally doubt it would get much use if it wasn't near the house. Most of the flying I enjoy lately is short field VFR flying to grass strips and rural settings. I don't plan on overnight trips or extensive long range multi stop trips. I simply enjoy flying VFR.

Please let me know your thoughts. Apologies for the long post

You’re on the right track: hinged wing is for you.

Schweizer 300C

A 4 cycle Rotax, yes. Two stroke? I couldn’t recommend it.

Seriously, welcome. Hope there’s some discussion here to help you with your selection.

I thought you said a hilly farm with a "flat spot"?!?! Welcome!

30 degrees and 660 feet is a pretty serious strip depending on a lot of factors, but the biggest factor is the pilot's ability. Lots of airplanes can handle a "strip" like that in capable hands depending on current conditions and and approach and departure obstacles, on which you really didn't elaborate.

The only thing that prepares a pilot for landing off airport on slopes such as the one you're describing is EXPERIENCE! One way to get that experience is to go out and get some training...but really only a handful of "qualified instructors" out there that can give you that. I put "qualified instructors" in parentheses because that person may or may not be a CFI. There's even fewer instructors out there who have access to capable planes (or the willingness to train you in them), and an environment with suitable terrain in which to train nearby.

The other way (realistically the only way, and I suspect the way most here have done it) is to buy a plane and go out there and get the experience you need by burning copious amounts of Avgas. It doesn't happen overnight, I'm afraid. One must work up to it slowly and methodically...might take 10 hours, or 100. Just depends on the you and the time you're able to devote to it. Start by learning your airplane as best you can. Short fields first....probably the most important thing here is being able to put your wheels down within ten feet of your target. Then soft fields. Then rough soft fields. Once you get good command of the plane, then work your way on to slopes and one-way in/out landing areas. Work your way up until you're comfy landing on the strip you described. One advantage you'll have at the "home strip", is being able to survey it from the ground prior to landing. You'll find throughout you training that this is a big advantage and most often not available when selecting a site for a suitable landing AND subsequent departure...don't forget, your selected airplane must have the performance to depart safely after you land...many airplanes can land shorter than they can takeoff It's all part of growing your skillset as a pilot and developing good decision making skills in the process.

I guess I really didn't answer your question with all that, but given your situation and my experience, I'd pick a tandem "cub-like" airplane with good performance. I only say tandem because its easier to see out both sides of the airplane but a side-by-side like the highlander or kitfox probably has good visibility too, just no real experience with them.

I'm sure the folks here will have plenty of good advice for you! Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

I keep almost responding then changing my mind. Bart put together most of what I was thinking about saying. My concern with responding was that I might come across wrong, so please don't take this as being critical or dismissive. We all need to have dreams, that is how we motivate ourselves.

With that said, your question is sort of like a guy in a music store asking the salesman, "What piano do I need to buy in order to play like Beethoven?"

There are a number of aircraft that can do what you want. But not all pilots are up to that. Not even most. So if you want that capability then a capable airplane is important. Kitfox probably works, cub works, probably a lot of other options. But you will be the limiting factor, and there is a lot of work to get you to the point where that strip is feasible with comfortable certainty.

So dream away. But you need to go fly. A lot. If you want the dream to become reality.



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Troy Hamon wrote:I keep almost responding then changing my mind. Bart put together most of what I was thinking about saying. My concern with responding was that I might come across wrong, so please don't take this as being critical or dismissive. We all need to have dreams, that is how we motivate ourselves.

With that said, your question is sort of like a guy in a music store asking the salesman, "What piano do I need to buy in order to play like Beethoven?"

There are a number of aircraft that can do what you want. But not all pilots are up to that. Not even most. So if you want that capability then a capable airplane is important. Kitfox probably works, cub works, probably a lot of other options. But you will be the limiting factor, and there is a lot of work to get you to the point where that strip is feasible with comfortable certainty.

So dream away. But you need to go fly. A lot. If you want the dream to become reality.



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What those guys ^^ said.

So, figure out what airplane you want/need. Then, rent that hangar (it's spelled with an A, not an E) in town, and start learning to fly that airplane. Take your time, get some good instruction, and work your way up to what you want to do with it.

There's a guy who posts here (courierguy) who is operating from a strip similar to what you describe. That's a REALLY challenging sort of strip. First thing I'd recommend there is lengthen it if at all possible.

Airplanes: Do some math on every airplane you consider. A Kitfox or it's ilk doesn't offer a lot of useful load. You casually mention that you weigh 190 and most of your friends are less than 235. Just those two weights together will eat up most if not all the useful load on many of these little airplanes. So, do some realistic math as to what your loads will be, don't forget gas and survival gear.

It can be done, but as Troy says, this is a serious endeavor, and it'll take quite a while for you to get up to speed, if you can even do it.

MTV

I’d look at the kit fox or Rans lines. I think after a good amount of practice on pavement, longer grass strips, etc. that you’d have a good chance of landing/departing from your strip solo. This is all individual skill/talent dependent, but those light planes would likely be able to handle your strip with a good pilot and light weight.

If you want to carry passengers, I’d very much recommend you pick them up and drop them off at the airport.

At 1000 hours TT, you’re not a starry-eyed new guy - but beware the traps of your previous experience. It may not all translate and it’s tough for some people to practice the “entry-level skills” after they’ve amassed some mid-range experience.

Nobody here wants to tell someone they don’t know to go for it and then have lost lives on their conscience due to the PIC’s lack of judgement or skill. Some of the comments might come across harshly but I’m sure they’re all well meant.

The best advice I can give is to find a plane that’s capable of the task (good start by asking here) then burn lots of fuel practicing the basics of spot landings, energy management, go-arounds, and build-up slowly to the dream of putting a plane in your barn.

Thanks for all the replies. Obviously there are a bunch of experienced pilots here. My days for taking crazy flights are behind me. I agree with several comments that I am the limiting factor. I also agree that the person that trains me for lack of a better term might not be a CFI. We have crop duster pilots that handle the local farm country very well. They are based at two different spots. I'll start with them.

The surrounding terrain is gentle hills of wheat and other grains. Our area is called the Palouse near Valleyford, WA. There are no rocks or mountains. Many large farms surround where I live. Our land is a large square of ten acres. The easiest spot to create a strip involves using a flail mower to cut the grass short along my neighbors fence line. This strip would be at least 50 ft wide and 230 yards long running south to north. No legitimate extensions of the strip are possible on this strip as it would involve my neighbors land. There are several areas to land to the east in the event of a engine out scenario on take off or short final.

I also wanted to explain that my bush pilot friend who owns the 180 said clearly that he could land on my strip but that he probably could not get out again with leaving me there and dumping fuel. I already own the home so its either this or a shared hangar at this point. I have found several private grass strips within 30 minutes drive time from my home. If it is too risky I will wait for more training.

Regarding the style of aircraft. I only mentioned Kitfox. The new ones are a ton of $$ and involve the Trent Palmer factor in my opinion. I would welcome other suggestions of aircraft that might fit the bill. Thanks again

Riddler, Stick and Rudder aviation https://www.stick-rudder.com/ is not to far from you. If I were you I would get some training and advice from them. Of course the training would be in one of those new high dollar kitfoxes.

I built and flew a 503 (52 HP) powered kitfox model 4. I wasn't flying enough to keep as sharp as I should be so decided it was time to quit and sold it. If you are not experienced with the operation and maintenance of the Rotax two stroke engines I would stay away from them. Nice Rotax 912 powered Kitfoxes come on the market occasionally in the $30K range. You will be much happier with that engine.

Yes, that potential landing strip on a 30 degree slope is seriously steep.

Unless the entire point of flying again is to use that "airstrip", I'd forget about it and just fly from the local airport. But I don't like bending things...

Having raced two strokes for years I would NEVER leave the ground behind one.

Flying around the Palouse is awesome and I wouldn’t hesitate to do it in a 2-stroke. Personally I wouldn’t look at kitfox models prior to the model 4 and probably only the later model 4s.

I don’t know if he is still around but the Schoplen (sp?) guy that owns the strip of the same name is a good guy, a good pilot and a CFI. He would be my first stop if I were you.

The good news is you're already a pilot. We don't have to talk you through that.

I'm normally a very conservative voice of reason, but I'll play the devil in this conversation. Good answers above, but I think it's doable, however without seeing your actual proposed strip this is based on my imagination. Doing your property strip straight out of the gate? Maybe not the wisest thing. I would work up to it.

Also, I suspect your 30 degree estimate is wrong, because that would be obviously insane and you wouldn't be asking about it here.

It's amazing what a Rans S-7 or Highlander can do compared to a Skywagon or even a Super Cub in terms of getting off the ground. When you start with only 750 lbs empty compared to 1100 or 1800, you've got a serious advantage. So the length probably isn't an issue. Even if it was, the slope can really make a landing short even after you've carried a little extra speed to pitch for the upslope.

The downside? LSA types are weight-affected seemingly to a greater degree because of the power spec. So while it may feel amazing solo, with your 200+ lb buddy in the back it's going to be a little more sluggish. And you just can't carry much. Actually, that can make it fun to adventure in because you build your camping kits ultralight and adopt a minimalist approach.

No way to get around a ton of practice. If you can find a similar slope at a larger spot, like one of those hay fields out there where Jughead likes to play, you can practice safely without the hard constraints. Patience is the name of the game. I think 9 times out of 10, bent airplanes result from impatience. A combo of over-enthusiasm, lack of discretion in conditions, or unwillingness to NOT miss out or go to an alternate because the wind is unfavorable. I also think that a good imagination for how things can go wrong is the most powerful tool for keeping you safe.

Here's a fun little spot I landed last month in a buddy's S7.





I'm not afraid of two-strokes. I have a fair number of hours on 503s and 582s and they do really well. Even all my two-stroke motorcycles were excellent engines that never let me down. Most people's negative impression of two-strokes come from weedeaters, chainsaws, or hand-me-down dirt bikes that are abused and left to sit for months or years without use. That said, the 912 is an excellent engine and would be my first choice.

daedaluscan wrote:Having raced two strokes for years I would NEVER leave the ground behind one.

Maybe I was being a little dramatic, but I think a 912 is a much better option.

daedaluscan wrote:

daedaluscan wrote:Having raced two strokes for years I would NEVER leave the ground behind one.

Maybe I was being a little dramatic, but I think a 912 is a much better option.

Dude that caps usage was totally dramatic.

WIth that runway description I would make sure to get something with upholstery that is easy to clean.

The Palouse is awesome.

Lol my area is not like that photo of the Palouse. Much more reasonable hills for emergency landings.

I am totally open to the newer Kitfox or other planes. Newer Kitfox 4 with a 4 stroke is in the budget.

So now regarding the 30 degree descent. My neighbor is a engineer, his thoughts is that it is a 20 degree slope downward at max, maybe 16-18% slope downward. I am not sure how to post photos yet or if I am even allowed. If I could post them it might help.

I did confirm the landing strip is 600ft by 60ft wide. Totally flat grass and there are no rocks. That last part I did get correct. The pencil geometry lesson posted was hilarious as I can laugh at myself. I last time I studied Geometry was in high school in 1990. Apologies to all. I think I need to refresh my thinking on continuing education. Thanks

Have you considered ... a Pacer?

They land (plop) short, and there's often 900lb+ of useful. If you put yourself and a 230lb friend in there, instead of pushing gross with fuel, you're several hundred pounds light. The 150hp models, when flown without backseat pax, climb like rocket ships (1100 fpm+). The backseat is removable, giving you Maule-esque cargo space if you find yourself short on friends.

Trent Palmer doesn't fly a Pacer, and they're hard to control on roll/rollout, so you can get a nice one for 25k. You're nearby one of the best pacer shops in the country - Steve's in Medford, Oregon.

Best,
-J

Jourdan:

your reply is exactly why I posted here. thanks a ton. I like the idea of making a choice over a few months instead of rushing a decision.

I will check out a Pacer.

https://spokane.craigslist.org/avo/d/co ... 84747.html

I'm gathering this is not what you were thinking Jourdan?

thanks

How's the approach and departure look? What's beyond the down slope end? A picture would help for sure.
If I had to guess the N-S orientation is good, that tends to be the dominant wind north of the river at least.
As far as which aircraft, I can't really answer. I can say that just over a year ago I was a 1 year PPL looking to buy a back country capable airplane to both get my tail wheel endorsement and build some time and experience economically. Ended up finding a 150hp Pacer and it's been a blast. 100 hours in on the PA22/20, all I can say is 600' at 2400msl is short. *Maybe* doable - solo, couple hours fuel, cold day, planets aligned, etc. If you'd like to take a look and/or a flight let me know - I'm out of 70S.