Have you looked at the Zenair CH701, CH750, CH801 kitplanes?
They do some pretty impressive things.

Riddler wrote:https://spokane.craigslist.org/avo/d/coeur-alene-1950-piper-pa-20/6950084747.html

I'm gathering this is not what you were thinking Jourdan?

thanks

Happy to help man. Sounds like dread pirate Will ended up with the same solution.

I don't see anything wrong with 87K. She's a clean, well-kept original pacer priced to sell. 135hp engine though, so I'd definitely not use the back seats. the engine is nearly run out. When it's done, you can put an O-320 in instead.

Some things to look for:
-150hp engine (from converted tri pacer like mine and will's or from O-320 conversion)
-Vortex Generators (87K has them)
-Extended Svens or drooped wing tips
-PA-18 tailfeathers

Like Will says, the approach and departure end trees and terrain will make a huge difference in doability. May we see a picture? On flat ground, my roll is well under 500' when I'm light. With any wind that drops, and with PAX it gets longer. There is a formula for calculating slope's effect on takeoff performance, though I don't have it handy. It is significant. As long as you can land uphill and takeoff downhill, you'd be surprised what you can accomplish. Witness the 135hp pacers landing at Mile-Hi Idaho with similar conditinos.

Lastly: Many 2-place Colts have been converted to tailwheel. A friend flies one, and its performance is stellar. It really is just a pacer in terms of frame, but often has a big engine - 160 or 180hp.

Grrrrr, this web forum just dumped a looooong post on this topic. I'm not typing it again. When two folks post at once, it dumps one or the other....perhaps the one that came in last....??

Anyway, slopes are a key factor here. Slopes can be your best friend, IF you learn to operate on slopes. With just a little patience and training, landing can be easy, as long as you have patience......like serious patience. But, slope landings are easy, once you learn them.

Takeoffs, on the other hand, can and regularly do, bite pilots. Ground effect is your friend, and the ground slopes AWAY. The tendency of everyone is to pitch to level flight as soon as airborne.....then mush and stall.

And, eastern Washington gets some SERIOUS hot weather. Density Altitudes will be a serious issue there at certain times of the year. And, that will REALLY bite you on takeoff.

20 or 30 degree slope is okay, but you have to learn to USE it, not try to fight it.

MTV

mtv wrote:Grrrrr, this web forum just dumped a looooong post on this topic. I'm not typing it again. When two folks post at once, it dumps one or the other....perhaps the one that came in last....??

Anyway, slopes are a key factor here. Slopes can be your best friend, IF you learn to operate on slopes. With just a little patience and training, landing can be easy, as long as you have patience......like serious patience. But, slope landings are easy, once you learn them.

Takeoffs, on the other hand, can and regularly do, bite pilots. Ground effect is your friend, and the ground slopes AWAY. The tendency of everyone is to pitch to level flight as soon as airborne.....then mush and stall.

And, eastern Washington gets some SERIOUS hot weather. Density Altitudes will be a serious issue there at certain times of the year. And, that will REALLY bite you on takeoff.

20 or 30 degree slope is okay, but you have to learn to USE it, not try to fight it.

MTV

Couldn't agree more. That's why I want to see if there are trees off the departure (downslope) end. Ideally he can push the nose down after rotation, stay in ground effect, and pull away after exceeding Vy.

OP will also likely need to flare to an unfamiliar sight picture to avoid turning the plane into a retractable. But landing rolls uphill can be dramatically short if properly executed.

mtv wrote:Grrrrr, this web forum just dumped a looooong post on this topic. I'm not typing it again. When two folks post at once, it dumps one or the other....perhaps the one that came in last....??

That's not true. The forum detects that someone else has posted in the meantime while you've been drafting your post, and instead of posting your new post it says "hey this other post was posted, look at it. Then you confirm and submit again.

I agree it's not ideal and it can misdirect. It might be a preference I can turn off. But that's also why I have the warning next to the submit button:

ATTENTION! You should highlight and copy your text to the clipboard before submitting in case something goes wrong like losing your network connection or your login session.

Ok so you guys are throwing some awesome ideas at me. Seriously appreciated. yes it get very hot here in the summer. 90 is common. I do not know my actual altitude and that complicates things a bit.

Will Yes I would be interested in chatting? Can you PM me? I took some pics of the area with my iphone to give you some background information. Next post will be the pics.

Again thanks

Terrain

Zzz wrote:

mtv wrote:Grrrrr, this web forum just dumped a looooong post on this topic. I'm not typing it again. When two folks post at once, it dumps one or the other....perhaps the one that came in last....??

That's not true. The forum detects that someone else has posted in the meantime while you've been drafting your post, and instead of posting your new post it says "hey this other post was posted, look at it. Then you confirm and submit again.

I agree it's not ideal and it can misdirect. It might be a preference I can turn off. But that's also why I have the warning next to the submit button:

ATTENTION! You should highlight and copy your text to the clipboard before submitting in case something goes wrong like losing your network connection or your login session.

Geeeeez, Zane....I'm a pilot fer cryin out loud....now you expect me to read AND FOLLOW instructions on an internet thingy?

Dang, life is getting harder. More fun to just bitch about it.....

MTV

I'm not 100% certain I have the runway positioned correctly in my brain (fence line?) but nothing I'm seeing there is giving me much pause. Competent instruction in any of these airplanes should sort you nicely. Looks like you could pop up into ground effect for miles there. You live in some beautiful country, my friend. Excited to see your home-strip journey develop.

mtv wrote:

Zzz wrote:That's not true. The forum detects that someone else has posted in the meantime while you've been drafting your post, and instead of posting your new post it says "hey this other post was posted, look at it. Then you confirm and submit again.

I agree it's not ideal and it can misdirect. It might be a preference I can turn off. But that's also why I have the warning next to the submit button:

ATTENTION! You should highlight and copy your text to the clipboard before submitting in case something goes wrong like losing your network connection or your login session.

Geeeeez, Zane....I'm a pilot fer cryin out loud....now you expect me to read AND FOLLOW instructions on an internet thingy?

Dang, life is getting harder. More fun to just bitch about it.....

MTV

Hey...it's gotten me too.

Thanks a ton Jourdan. If I was a bit smarter I could have easily looked closer and posted the pics. The fence line is the neighbors fence. But along that line running down hill seems to offer my best option for a departure downhill and a landing site uphill. I have more photos if needed for you guys to assess the landing strip.

I should note that the grass near the barn has been cut as a firebreak of sorts due to fire risks. I have not not spent the 3 hours yet cutting the grass where the airstrip would be. It makes the photos slightly confusing. Thanks

Operating on/off a marginal strip is one thing if you only do it when the conditions are just right.
But basing your airplane on one, it'd be pretty easy to not want the hassle of landing at the bigger airport,
tying down there, and getting a ride home somehow....sort of related to "get home-it is".
So you push the conditions and end up busting your ass.

I'm inclined to offer the same advice as was given early in the thread:

bart wrote:….The only thing that prepares a pilot for landing off airport on slopes such as the one you're describing is EXPERIENCE! One way to get that experience is to go out and get some training...but really only a handful of "qualified instructors" out there that can give you that. …...The other way (realistically the only way, and I suspect the way most here have done it) is to buy a plane and go out there and get the experience you need by burning copious amounts of Avgas. It doesn't happen overnight, I'm afraid. One must work up to it slowly and methodically...might take 10 hours, or 100. Just depends on the you and the time you're able to devote to it.....

mtv wrote:….So, figure out what airplane you want/need. Then, rent that hangar (it's spelled with an A, not an E) in town, and start learning to fly that airplane. Take your time, get some good instruction, and work your way up to what you want to do with it.....

Riddler,

The restriction to getting into and out of your proposed strip (and I applaud you for wanting to fly in and out of your own place- that's what I do) is much more about you and density altitude than about which type of aircraft you need. Lot's can go in and out of your strip with a really good pilot. Including my 185.

You will be the biggest restricting factor - followed by density altitude.

Instead of asking "Need advice on which aircraft best fits my needs?"- the better question would be "How do I learn to land within ten feet of my intended touchdown point- every time?"

Because that's what you'll need to safely get into your strip without wrecking your plane.

You can start this process at any airport and with any plane. Pick a spot you can easily see and learn to land no more than 25' (about the length of an airplane) beyond that spot EVERY SINGLE TIME. Hitting the spot and bouncing back into the air doesn't count, the plane needs to be done flying when it lands so you can get on the brakes.

Then once you can do 25' feet make it 10'. And do it with a couple different aircraft types so you understand how each is different and what is required for each. Find an instructor/pilot WHO CAN SPOT LAND and do this initially with him/her so you don't prang the plane.

And while learning this pay attention to the density altitude at different times of the year and different times of day. Download a POH of any airplane you think you might like to own and look at it's take-off and landing performance charts for altitude and temperature and see if your strips length is within that aircraft's capabilities.

And purchase one of these and input the plane's data and the environment data and see if you could still use that aircraft on your strip AND when.
http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/takeof ... puter.html

And then you need to find a nice, decent length uphill strip that approximates your slope and practice spot landing on it- cause a steeply sloped strip is another animal entirely.

After this then you'll be ready to figure out what plane will fit your very precise needs.

Have fun.

jourdan wrote:Have you considered ... a Pacer?

I love the Pacer. I own one. However, it wouldn't be my first choice for this use case. Flying them slow is just a handful more work and power dependent than something with more wing like a Super Cub. Honestly, they shine because they are a value. Great for XC, hauling, comfort, and doing some short work. But tight, steep, and short? I would be holding out for a Bushmaster or Cub or something.

Hmmmph. Like Mike, I lost another brilliant post, due mostly I'm sure to failing to do something right. Oh well.

My contribution: a 660' strip is mighty short. I can land my airplane (Cessna P172D) in that distance--I've done it many times--but I can't get it off in that distance. But landing in that distance requires practice, lots of practice.

I don't know the weather in eastern Washington, but although your elevation isn't all that bad (roughly 2500' MSL), add some warmth and it gets pretty dicey. If you're into the high 80s or low 90s, you're talking about 5000' DA, and performance really begins to suffer above that figure.

I really question the 30 degree slope, or even a 30 percent slope. Remember the opening scene in the James Bond movie, Tomorrow Never Dies? That steep runway is Courchevel in the French Alps--and that's only an 18.6% slope. I can't imagine actually landing on a 30% slope, although I'm sure that there are some here who believe that they have--or maybe actually have. FWIW, a 30% slope means that the in 100', the rise is 30', i.e., somewhat more than the height of a 2 story building. The steepest highway I know about is Teton Pass west of Jackson, WY, which is a 10% slope.

Many long years ago, Wife One and I bought a 40 acre plot, 1320' x 1320' north of Laramie. I had dreams of putting an airstrip on it. I was flying a TR182 at the time, and I knew that under the most favorable conditions, running light, I could get it off the ground in that distance. If I ran the strip diagonally, I'd get about 1800', and that made it more doable safely. But if I loaded the airplane with family and fuel, it became problematic. So what was the point? At the DAs I'd be dealing with, around 10,000', those favorable conditions wouldn't exist at all in the summer. It was only a 10 minute drive to the airport from the property. But a guy can dream, right? Fortunately, she and I split, she got the property, and I didn't become a statistic trying to make the airplane do what it didn't want to do.

I think a 660' airstrip is just too short, except perhaps for ultralight flyers. It's just not worth the risk.

Cary