Looks like nice plane at a good price.

Hi Josh,

Great thread. Not sure if experimental options are on your radar screen. Just for your consideration the following. Some may not meet your useful load and/or space requirements depending on what you want to haul and your weight. Also not sure if you need all metal because of how and where you park your plane.

I read a thread somewhere on the difference between a shopper and a buyer. A buyer is ready to pounce on a great deal, financing/cash in hand. Great deals probably don't last long... ( unless it's a boat )

So many options, kinda like choosing a motorcycle. Good luck. I'll be interested to read how it eventually turns out.

Piper PA-20 Pacer
Piper PA-20/22 Pacer
Kitfox IV Classic or 1050
Zenith 701
Rans S6S
Rans S7
Aeronca LS7AC Champ
Cessna 170/A/B

Was exactly where you are now about 4 years ago (except much older). Live in San Diego... wanted to get PPL in a taildragger. Very few to rent (there was actually a Legend Cub I was training in until someone groundlooped it). Finally decided I needed to buy if I ever wanted to finish. Found a nice 1946 J3 in Phoenix, paid for my instructor to fly out and pick it up with me... trip home got to log as cross country.

Got my sport pilot license first (not most economical way to go but it worked). There are a couple tailwheel DPEs in San Diego but they were way backed up (like 90 days). I wanted to fly the Cub to Idaho for the summer, so I found a great tailwheel loving DPE in Sacramento. Stopped in on my way to Idaho and took the test, then kept heading north. Needless to say, the cross country planning portion of the test was easy...as I had made it to Sacramento from San Diego!

Spent the next 3 months at Mead Flying Services Airport just north of Spokane, WA (rented house on the runway from the owners of the airfield). Flew all around the area (mostly by myself with 5 gallon jug of gas in front seat so I could stretch my area of exploration).

One year later I got my PPL from same DPE in a Piper Super Cub. Yes, it cost more to fly all the way there from San Diego, but I just considered the whole thing an adventure. Was more about the journey.

My only regret... not doing it sooner. I researched the $#it out of everything trying to find the perfect plane. You will know her when you see her... it is a gut thing (though a good pre-buy is critical). I didn't get one but lucked out. Best part is the people you meet along the way...

400+ hours now, 380 of which are tailwheel, 330 in my Cub. Head up to Montgomery Field if you get a chance. Great tailwheel community. Look up Bob Turner or Glenn Daly or Steve Byers or Gary Drean or... the list goes on. Cub fanatics!

jkegode wrote:...but then I found this on Controller:



C-170A
$29,500
C-145-2
2550 TT
550 SMOH

Sure is fun to shop for airplanes! That’s a pretty 170, but near as I can tell there’s no lighting. Assuming there’s still a nighttime flight requirement for the Private, that’s a rather huge problem.

It’s good to see what’s out there and what prices are, but shopping for an airplane at this point is putting the cart about a mile ahead of the horse. If you really want to learn in a taildragger, the first thing you need to find is the instructor. When you do, ask for references from former students they took from zero to private. As DENNY said, the next thing you need to find is the IA. Once you have them lined up you can start looking at airplanes. When you find one you’re interested in, get an insurance quote…that’s going to be a real wake-up call if the little wheel is in back…

Getting your PP license is often something it’s best to just get through. Just get it done, then start learning how to fly.

An emotional investment is very important, especially for something that takes as much time, money, and sweat as flying. You have to love it…that’s why we bought a 170 at significantly higher cost than a better equipped 182…we love tail draggers…that’s all we wanted to fly. And we had the excess funds to make that choice.

But your private pilot training and check ride really isn’t about emotions or romance or nostalgia. It’s not a courtship. It’s more akin to being in a North Korean reeducation camp where the commandant puts a pistol to the side of your head and says “demonstrate the appropriate mechanics of copulation while reciting the Aegukka!”

If you succeed, you get a permit to mate and can go find true love. If you fail, well, no mating permit for you, and that sucks. Getting the ticket is simply not the same as flying for the love of it. Think long and hard about just how much more expensive and complicated you want to make that process, which most people find to be every bit as stressful and frustrating as it is “fun”.

Don’t get me wrong…you can get your ticket in a taildragger, but it’s probably going to be much harder and cost much more, and that has nothing to do with the ground-handling characteristics of the little wheel. You’re just going to have a vastly shallower pool of instructors to choose from, and just because someone is a tailwheel instructor doesn’t in any way, shape, or form mean they can get you through the private pilot curriculum in a reasonable timeframe or at a reasonable expense.

Contrary to popular belief, being a tailwheel pilot doesn’t mean you’re a good pilot…it just means you learned how to handle a tailwheel. It’s infinitely better to get quality instruction in a nose wheel than poor instruction in a tailwheel.

During my PP training I went through three instructors before I found someone I felt I was really learning from. The first two were competent, but we just didn’t connect…I wasn’t learning from them. MOST places you’re not going to have that luxury in a taildragger.

If you end up somewhere with access to a good TW instructor who can get you through the PP curriculum without wasting your time and money, GREAT. But that is absolutely not a given. A person can fly like a raven and still not be able to get a student to their check ride, and believe me, if you’re the student that’s REALLY frustrating.

My advice: get your private license as efficiently as possible. That means if there’s no GOOD tailwheel instruction where you end up, do it in a nose wheel. Whether you rent or buy is another decision. Buy right and you’ll save money…buy wrong and you’ll loose your shorts. Regardless, you’ll love a 150 you can fly a whole hell of a lot more than a 170 you can’t. At 24 years old I recon you’ll probably have time to transition to a tailwheel before you die…

Yeah, taildraggers are nice, but.
Get a 150/152 ,learn to fly , put some hrs on it.
Take one person with you.
4-5 years down the road , sell it for what you paid (or close) .
Then up grade.
Use the balance in you bank account for gas .
Ymmv . Good luck, Charlie


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Hammer wrote:

jkegode wrote:...but then I found this on Controller:



C-170A
$29,500
C-145-2
2550 TT
550 SMOH

Sure is fun to shop for airplanes! That’s a pretty 170, but near as I can tell there’s no lighting. Assuming there’s still a nighttime flight requirement for the Private, that’s a rather huge problem.

It’s good to see what’s out there and what prices are, but shopping for an airplane at this point is putting the cart about a mile ahead of the horse. If you really want to learn in a taildragger, the first thing you need to find is the instructor. When you do, ask for references from former students they took from zero to private. As DENNY said, the next thing you need to find is the IA. Once you have them lined up you can start looking at airplanes. When you find one you’re interested in, get an insurance quote…that’s going to be a real wake-up call if the little wheel is in back…

Getting your PP license is often something it’s best to just get through. Just get it done, then start learning how to fly.

An emotional investment is very important, especially for something that takes as much time, money, and sweat as flying. You have to love it…that’s why we bought a 170 at significantly higher cost than a better equipped 182…we love tail draggers…that’s all we wanted to fly. And we had the excess funds to make that choice.

But your private pilot training and check ride really isn’t about emotions or romance or nostalgia. It’s not a courtship. It’s more akin to being in a North Korean reeducation camp where the commandant puts a pistol to the side of your head and says “demonstrate the appropriate mechanics of copulation while reciting the Aegukka!”

If you succeed, you get a permit to mate and can go find true love. If you fail, well, no mating permit for you, and that sucks. Getting the ticket is simply not the same as flying for the love of it. Think long and hard about just how much more expensive and complicated you want to make that process, which most people find to be every bit as stressful and frustrating as it is “fun”.

Don’t get me wrong…you can get your ticket in a taildragger, but it’s probably going to be much harder and cost much more, and that has nothing to do with the ground-handling characteristics of the little wheel. You’re just going to have a vastly shallower pool of instructors to choose from, and just because someone is a tailwheel instructor doesn’t in any way, shape, or form mean they can get you through the private pilot curriculum in a reasonable timeframe or at a reasonable expense.

Contrary to popular belief, being a tailwheel pilot doesn’t mean you’re a good pilot…it just means you learned how to handle a tailwheel. It’s infinitely better to get quality instruction in a nose wheel than poor instruction in a tailwheel.

During my PP training I went through three instructors before I found someone I felt I was really learning from. The first two were competent, but we just didn’t connect…I wasn’t learning from them. MOST places you’re not going to have that luxury in a taildragger.

If you end up somewhere with access to a good TW instructor who can get you through the PP curriculum without wasting your time and money, GREAT. But that is absolutely not a given. A person can fly like a raven and still not be able to get a student to their check ride, and believe me, if you’re the student that’s REALLY frustrating.

My advice: get your private license as efficiently as possible. That means if there’s no GOOD tailwheel instruction where you end up, do it in a nose wheel. Whether you rent or buy is another decision. Buy right and you’ll save money…buy wrong and you’ll loose your shorts. Regardless, you’ll love a 150 you can fly a whole hell of a lot more than a 170 you can’t. At 24 years old I recon you’ll probably have time to transition to a tailwheel before you die…

Thank you for the wisdom. And you are right, I think I am getting a bit prematurely excited. This isn't the first time I have run the numbers when it comes to being able to afford it, but it is the first time that everything checked out, and the thought that I can finally afford to buy and fly an airplane has me bouncing off the walls.

Hammer wrote:....Getting your PP license is often something it’s best to just get through. Just get it done, then start learning how to fly..... Getting the ticket is simply not the same as flying for the love of it. Think long and hard about just how much more expensive and complicated you want to make that process, which most people find to be every bit as stressful and frustrating as it is “fun”......My advice: get your private license as efficiently as possible. .... At 24 years old I recon you’ll probably have time to transition to a tailwheel before you die…

I agree with most or all of Hammer's post.
Just getting the license can be pretty demanding, do you really want to complicate it by adding new-to-you airplane / first airplane / taildragger issues to it?
I'd suggest just renting a 150/152 and getting the private license hurdle out of the way, as quickly & cheaply as possible. Then move on to post-graduate taildragger flying.
As a friend of mine puts it, "I got my license in a 150, then I learned to fly in a Cub".

Keep your eyes open for the right airplane to buy as you progress in your flying, and keep an open mind as the "right airplane" for you just might morph over time into something different from what you think you want now.

akaviator wrote:.........The plane on Aerotrader has been for sale for ever. It has an unusual engine in it and I personally would steer clear of it....

The ad doesn't even say which engine it has!
Looks like the cowling has the "Lycoming bump", so I'll guess that it has an O-340?

Whooops, delete. The C170 in the Controller ad has the C-145-2.

Owning an airplane and piloting one use two entirely different sets of skills. I think trying to learn the essentials of both at the same time, while people certainly do it, is a setup for disappointment. When you have a lesson scheduled and the rental has a squawk, you reschedule for another day or another airplane. If you own the airplane, you have to skip the lesson, skip every lesson until the problem is fixed, and pay to fix it. It's the sort of thing that makes one doubt his commitment to flying.

You might ask around the FBO and see if there are any clubs around. They can be a lower-cost alternative to renting or owning.

Just a different point of view.....
-IF you can get a decent instructor to get you checked out in the 170/140....I would advise learning in it. Building that muscle memory/instinct in a tailwheel airplane is a great benefit. Yes, you can learn it later...but the “law of primacy” is that if you get it down first, you have it down best.

I admit I’m biased...but most TW airplanes require much better stick and rudder work than most nose wheel planes. It’s kind of like learning to drive a stick shift before going to an automatic...(yeah, I know, the illustration breaks down). Owning your own plane is great. I know, you have heard the “if it flys, floats, or fornicates, rent it don’t buy it”....but the *huge* difference is....once you own it, you’ve sunk your costs. The first hour is horrendously expensive (insurance, purchase, etc...)...every hour after that is cheap (gas....and a bit for oil). As a result, you’ll go fly. The more you fly, the more often you fly, the better you tend to get.

The plane is there when you make a last minute decision to go. Assuming you have it in a controlled environment, it’s like you left it. You get to know it’s foibles, it’s personality. You’ll love it, and occasionally curse it. But I’m convinced, if you buy a good one (such as you’ve mentioned...) you’ll learn more than you ever would otherwise. There is so much you can do to keep the cost down, by doing things yourself (oil changes, catching problems early, etc.). I’d give up a *lot* before I’d be without a plane.

You can always go rent a 172 and do the night/hood work if needed. (Although all the 170s I ever flew had decent lights, and enough instruments to do the needed hood work.

An old mentor of mine said he could sit on the balcony atop his hangar, and win beer bets by watching planes takeoff and land....and predict who learned in a TW vs a nose wheel...regardless of what they were flying. I would concur with this.

hotrod180 wrote:

akaviator wrote:.........The plane on Aerotrader has been for sale for ever. It has an unusual engine in it and I personally would steer clear of it....

The ad doesn't even say which engine it has!
Looks like the cowling has the "Lycoming bump", so I'll guess that it has an O-340?

Yes


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StuBob wrote:Owning an airplane and piloting one use two entirely different sets of skills. I think trying to learn the essentials of both at the same time, while people certainly do it, is a setup for disappointment. When you have a lesson scheduled and the rental has a squawk, you reschedule for another day or another airplane. If you own the airplane, you have to skip the lesson, skip every lesson until the problem is fixed, and pay to fix it. It's the sort of thing that makes one doubt his commitment to flying.

You might ask around the FBO and see if there are any clubs around. They can be a lower-cost alternative to renting or owning.

That is VERY sound advice. Doing both works for some people, not for others. If your X-mass wish list isn't just a page out of the Snap-On catelog, owning has some disadvantages, especially when you're training.

Southern Boy wrote:Just a different point of view.....
...The first hour is horrendously expensive (insurance, purchase, etc...)...every hour after that is cheap (gas....and a bit for oil). As a result, you’ll go fly...

I agree with your post, but I've got to say that is an extremely optimistic view of aircraft ownership, at least in my experience. I might fly a little more than most folks, but if there's ever been a year that I didn't have $1,000 worth of unforeseen mechanical expenses, I don't remember it. And that's with me doing 99% of the work myself...if I had to pay a shop to do it the costs would be vastly higher.

No matter how well they're cared for, these are old machines that have had hard lives, and it takes some money and sweat to keep them flying. Anyone thinking about ownership needs to budget a good chunk of change for unforeseen expenses, because they WILL happen.

Hammer, I agree with what you said....


I guess I never imagined *not* viewing Snap-On as the Christmas catalog.....oops.....my bad.


You’re absolutely right...there will be unexpected expenses...but for someone who wants to learn to fly, I think racking up hours is cheaper in your own 170....rather than renting the 172, or Cirrus...especially if you want to end up being a back country guy in the end.

If you want to be a corporate/charter guy....I think the other approach has merit.


just opinion...

I very definitely come down on the side of learn to fly first, then look for an airplane to buy. There are several reasons, some of which you've already heard:
1. If your airplane breaks, you scrub all lessons until it's fixed.
2. Finding a good TW instructor isn't easy.
3. Complicating the learning process with learning to be an owner is difficult.
4. Many TW airplanes aren't sufficiently equipped to take you all the way from start to private.
5. Ownership can suddenly smack you with an unexpected huge expense.

But now let me add some, from my experience both as an instructor and as a pilot, in no particular order:

6. You may not like flying. I know that seems like heresy, especially among a bunch of pilots, but it's a fact. I have known students who simply did not like to fly, but didn't know it until they had several lessons under their belts.
7. You may not have the physiology to fly small airplanes. Some people just can't take anything but smooth air, and some can't even take that.
8. You may find that you don't have the aptitude to learn to fly. I've known several people who just couldn't "get it". Not dummies, not uncoordinated, just not pilot material.
9. You may have some physical infirmity that will keep you from flying--and PBOR2 hasn't yet been implemented, so it's important to find that out.
10. You may find that you have a fear of flying. I've known at least 2 students who quit because of that--and they had no experiences that justified that, it just happened.

Whether you buy or rent, you won't be skilled enough with your still damp private ticket to head into the back country. That's a good dream, but until you've racked up some hours practicing short and soft field work, it remains a dream. That private ticket is only a license to learn, something you'll hear often. Most pilots who are any good at all keep learning throughout their flying lives, not because they're working on advanced ratings and certificates, but because there is so much to learn. Almost every flight provides a lesson, maybe a small one, but still a lesson. When you get to the point where you think you know it all, something happens to remind you that you don't. A pilot who truly thinks he/she knows it all is dangerous and ought to quit flying.

So my advice has to be, learn to fly first, then look for an airplane to buy.

Cary

And, when standing tall in front of your very first chief pilot while looking for a job, I doubt he/she is going to really care if those hours barely meeting the insurance company minimums were in your own C120 or a rental 172.

Bottom line is, if you want to fly a lot, and on your own schedule, you can't do it in a rented airplane. You either buy your own, or you get an entry level job to build the time. I bought my own beaters, flew them hard and often, then sold them for more than I paid for them to buy something bigger and more complex.

And I travelled... Far and wide. This was pre-GPS days, and I found that hour for hour, I learned so much more forcing myself on long, long cross countrys than staying close to home could ever teach me. Kinda like attitude instrument flying in that after a while the nav became second nature, and freed the brain up for other stuff.

To me, it's like having to go to Hertz or Enterprise every time I needed to drive somewhere. Or, sharing a community car with my neighbors.

No way.

Gump

See if there is a local military flying club on base. Some great deals to be had with them. They do tend to be a bit heavy on paperwork and rules but you are young and that is good for ya! However you do it have All the money and time set aside to complete your PPL in 3mo. I have seen way too many guys/gals going back to relearn stuff because the had to take a brake for 2 mo because of time or money. As others mentioned backup instructors lined up also. Just go out and hang out at the local runways you will get tons of advice and help once people get to know you.
DENNY

My perspective: Split the two ideas up (ownership and flight training) and work on them independently....

Unless you are a masochist, take one step at a time. I have plenty of friends that heroically could do "Everything" at once. They never learned anything properly because of ego overload and exhaustion. Even (20) years later they left gaping holes in their knowledge that were never filled.

Go slow. Enjoy the ride. Ownership is complex and stressful for the average newcomer. Much nicer done as pleasure not a necessity.

FAA-H-8083-19A:
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/faa-h-8083-19a.pdf.

Hammer wrote:I agree with your post, but I've got to say that is an extremely optimistic view of aircraft ownership, at least in my experience. I might fly a little more than most folks, but if there's ever been a year that I didn't have $1,000 worth of unforeseen mechanical expenses, I don't remember it. And that's with me doing 99% of the work myself...if I had to pay a shop to do it the costs would be vastly higher.

No matter how well they're cared for, these are old machines that have had hard lives, and it takes some money and sweat to keep them flying. Anyone thinking about ownership needs to budget a good chunk of change for unforeseen expenses, because they WILL happen.

This from the guy who's had (by his own reckoning) THREE total electrical failures in flight......

I've owned airplanes for going on forty years now, and indeed I've had a few of those $1000 maintenance issues, but only just a few. Buy a good airplane to start with, and you'll avoid most of those.

There is no doubt that you'll run into some "unscheduled" maintenance issues. A starter craps out, a battery gives up, etc. But, start with a good machine and those should be relatively rare.

As Gump says, airplane ownership offers a LOT more options than trying to rent. An opportunity to go somewhere over the weekend?? Club airplane or even an FBO rental is most likely going to have someone else on the schedule for that three day weekend.....especially if you're checking weather as the weekend gets closer and it suddenly looks pretty good.....

Basic airplane....Cessna 150/170/172, etc. You'll find that you'll move through the PPL faster in a tri gear airplane. And, while you're building time, you'll be more likely to fly more, especially in windy country. I don't disagree that the tailwheel airplane will teach you to fly better, but it won't be faster.

And, a good instructor can teach you good stick and rudder skills in a 150 just as well as in a Pacer. The Pacer will have you thinking a lot about crosswinds, by the way.....if you're smart.

Whatever you get into, get into it with both feet, and don't get discouraged. Also, if your instructor isn't working out, find a different instructor....sometimes hard to do. I've sent students to other instructors because the chemistry just wasnt' working....didn't hurt my feelings at all....it's YOUR money and training.

Lots of ways to get where you're wanting to go. And your decision on which way to go will be heavily influenced by where you live, what kinds of resources you have available (instructors, rentals, etc).

Good luck, and keep us posted.

MTV

The A models aren't nearly as desireable to guys that fly the back country from what I have seen - still seems like a great airplane with a lot less markup than the B models.