Ahhhh, the yearly what do I call myself topic... I think it's comical/sad how many people get wadded up about what's the 'right way' to do it.

I agree, that the best answer is knowing where YOU are, and where to anticipate the other guy. If you are tight in the shorts over someone else's radio work, you are devoting too much time to something that's irrelevant, and you should be devoting more of it to the window, because that's where the guy that doesn't even use the radio is going to be.

I think that doing what is the regional norm has far more credence than being an outsider 'hot shot' that's going to show the world a 'better way'. Color's are fine, numbers are fine, just point me to where you are at, without stepping on someone else's opportunity to do the same.

I think learning the local call points (because they're rarely anything charted) is far more important in establishing accuracy than numbers or paint.

I think being a jerk to a controller makes as much sense as pissing on a cops foot. Even if the controller was a jerk to you. Declaring an emergency to puff your chest out only assures you will have to talk to 'the man' again? Declaring a fuel emergency when there is none is a childish way of endangering other people's life. Good luck explaining that one.

With that ads-b receiver remember you are only seeing the planes equipped with “out”. Not all planes are!


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kg wrote:I've used both methods of ident on the radio.

Can any of you really discern color from a mile away? A blue Cessna and a red Cessna look the same to me. Type of aircraft is important though as I know the speed of a King Air and the speed of a Luscomb are quite different and I can plan my pattern entry accordingly.

Having recently starting using ADSB and with the Scout unit magically tied to Foreflight on my iPad, I realized that many N numbers are displayed. So when N12345, N54321, and N98765 are all in the pattern, I am better aware of where each of them are. Color doesn't matter to me unless it's so bright that I can see it from a mile away. My home field has an active flight school and it's not unusual for the student's location to be a bit off from where they think they are. With ADSB and a pattern full of airplanes, the N number helps a lot for me to determine who is where ......... and where I will fit into the mix as I enter the pattern.

So N numbers may increasingly have a place in the radio call as ADSB becomes more prominent.

I was always told that it was the FCC that required a radio operator to identify his call sign, not the FAA, but I've never heard of the FCC actively listening to pilots to enforce this, if it's true.

Well, let’s look at that for a moment.....no, I can’t discern colors from a mile away. But with all due respect, if you can read tail numbers from a mile away, you have some obvious super powers. In fact, if I can read the tail number on ANY airplane I’m in the pattern with, it’s too damn close.

But in fact, colors and description of the airplane becomes much more useful than tail numbers when traffic is closer.

ADSB May become more useful in this context, but to make that work, you are going to have to be heads down a lot in proximity to an airport. I sure don’t want to be in the traffic pattern with someone who is trying to read tail numbers while on downwind entry.....

Not to mention the fact that I think you’re going to find a lot of planes zooming around without ADSB, even after 2020.

As Rob noted, use whatever you like, but keep your head UP, and your eyes scanning when you’re close to airports....ALL airports. A lot of midairs occur INSIDE class Delta airspace. Concise and accurate calls are key, regardless what technique you use.

MTV

Rob wrote:... Declaring a fuel emergency when there is none is a childish way of endangering other people's life. Good luck explaining that one.

I believe that was in the context of a controller giving you vectors until you were out of fuel. What's childish is a controller with an attitude giving a pilot the runaround because of miscommunication. I haven't seen it happen often...most controllers are exceptionally professional...but it does happen.

[ if I can read the tail number on ANY airplane I’m in the pattern with, it’s too damn close]

A call I made on downwind at Nampa one afternoon, "Cessna XXX, Ercoupe 86 Hotel is 100 feet directly below you" . I read his number by looking straight up thru my canopy.

mtv wrote:

kg wrote:I've used both methods of ident on the radio.

Can any of you really discern color from a mile away? A blue Cessna and a red Cessna look the same to me. Type of aircraft is important though as I know the speed of a King Air and the speed of a Luscomb are quite different and I can plan my pattern entry accordingly.

Having recently starting using ADSB and with the Scout unit magically tied to Foreflight on my iPad, I realized that many N numbers are displayed. So when N12345, N54321, and N98765 are all in the pattern, I am better aware of where each of them are. Color doesn't matter to me unless it's so bright that I can see it from a mile away. My home field has an active flight school and it's not unusual for the student's location to be a bit off from where they think they are. With ADSB and a pattern full of airplanes, the N number helps a lot for me to determine who is where ......... and where I will fit into the mix as I enter the pattern.

So N numbers may increasingly have a place in the radio call as ADSB becomes more prominent.

I was always told that it was the FCC that required a radio operator to identify his call sign, not the FAA, but I've never heard of the FCC actively listening to pilots to enforce this, if it's true.

Well, let’s look at that for a moment.....no, I can’t discern colors from a mile away. But with all due respect, if you can read tail numbers from a mile away, you have some obvious super powers. In fact, if I can read the tail number on ANY airplane I’m in the pattern with, it’s too damn close.

But in fact, colors and description of the airplane becomes much more useful than tail numbers when traffic is closer.

ADSB May become more useful in this context, but to make that work, you are going to have to be heads down a lot in proximity to an airport. I sure don’t want to be in the traffic pattern with someone who is trying to read tail numbers while on downwind entry.....

Not to mention the fact that I think you’re going to find a lot of planes zooming around without ADSB, even after 2020.

As Rob noted, use whatever you like, but keep your head UP, and your eyes scanning when you’re close to airports....ALL airports. A lot of midairs occur INSIDE class Delta airspace. Concise and accurate calls are key, regardless what technique you use.

MTV

Deleted my rebuttal... remembering why I so seldom make comments on the interweb. On my way to the airport. Happy Flying.

KG
If it is true I am screwed!!!! The reason I want to know tail number is so I can do a shout out to someone I know that may have beer. The reason I want to know type of aircraft is because all the student/heavy ATP type spam can drivers seem to like a 10 mile downwind before turning base so I just keep speed/altitude up behind them. Type and color is good in busy non-towered airport. I always give full numbers at any tower or FSS first call because they will ask for it if I don't (I assume data collection is one of the reasons, more funding) then last three and several bad read backs to follow, always need help from ground on which way to turn.

Calling out location is important, however, everyone must know what the location point is. So calling out obscure local pilot knowledge is not always helpful. I try to find big point that is on the chart and reference from that point. BUSTIN CHOPS: We have a non standard traffic pattern at our airport and runways 20 and 02 with people commonly landing with a tailwind due to sun issues so few weeks back someone was busting a pilot for just saying on crosswind. Sounded like a jerk but, at this runway pattern may change in only a few minutes so the runway is also important despite wind.

Like most everything in life it just depends!!
DENNY

Did some night patterns last night in a Texan 2 at an uncontrolled airstrip. Had some traffic come in, I used T-6 as a descriptor and still had someone (not at all rudely) cut in front of me in the downwind causing me to do a 360 for spacing. Got fuel at another, nearby non-towered airfield and learned that there’re some civilian piston T-6s nearby. I could have been more descriptive, they didn’t know how fast we go, but either way there was no danger so I don’t know that cluttering the radio is worth trying to convey too much. He knew where I was and I knew where he was and we bother knew each other’s intentions. Sounded like a successful radio interaction to me.

Also, the unit I’m in now has FAA authorization to use unit call signs in place of the standard “Army 12345.” EVAL 68 sure won’t tell anyone anything descriptive about my aircraft, so there too I’ll add type to my untowered calls: “EVAL 68, single Blackhawk left base RWY 5 for a stop and go.”

whee wrote:Repeating the airport at the end of the transmission is critically important to me. After 13yrs of marriage my wife has finally learned that if she doesn't get my attention before she starts talking I don't comprehend a word she's saying.

And after 40 years of marriage, I’ve realized that — just like with ATC — it matters little whether I heard and comprehended, or not: I am still held responsible to “comply”... LOL

Like Denny said, depends.

I fly 3 significantly different airframes: often.

1: An Airbus. I definetly include the type, when I fly to non towered places. Cuz, we're fast and heavy.
2: Stinson. I often have to explain that a paper bag flies faster than I do. Any traffic established in the pattern will probably to two touch and go's before I make it in.
3. UH60 Blackhawk. Definitely. More so, because we put out a poopload of wake turbulence that most GA pilots don't think about.

My intent is to give you out there listening, the most information about me, without having to tie up a shared frequency.

This is all technique.

I've got a little time to kill so what the heck I'll stir the pot.

I don't care to know your N-number, nor do I care to just know you are a Cessna. After all "Cessna" could mean anything from a 120 to a Citation, I do care to know THAT information. Color of your aircraft is nice if you are in close. If you are ten miles out color won't do me any good.

I have to admit when I hear "T6" I am expecting to see a big slow radial.

Oh and if you fall into the category of "I fly ginormous patterns in my 172" (that's ok, a lot of us were taught that when we learned to fly) please announce that, something like "Blue/White 172 mid-field flying a ten mile downwind- fifteen or twenty airplanes can turn inside me and land if they'd like"... a call like that would be much appreciated.

But what I really want to do here is interject some thread drift. On approach (VFR day) would you please quit announcing you are on the "RNav approach" or some other IFR jibberish. I have absolutely no idea where any of that is. Just tell me how many miles out you are and what direction from the airport.

And what is this "last call" stuff I hear occasionally from airplanes leaving an area? Do they actually think anyone cares that it's their last call? Or will do anything...ever...with that important tidbit of information? Who teaches this stuff?

Now back to your regular scheduled programming.

There are select few that should be delegated to the penalty box at O'hare for starting every radio call with, "...and...podunk field yadda yadda..."

kg wrote:I've used both methods of ident on the radio.

Can any of you really discern color from a mile away? A blue Cessna and a red Cessna look the same to me. Type of aircraft is important though as I know the speed of a King Air and the speed of a Luscomb are quite different and I can plan my pattern entry accordingly.

Having recently starting using ADSB and with the Scout unit magically tied to Foreflight on my iPad, I realized that many N numbers are displayed. So when N12345, N54321, and N98765 are all in the pattern, I am better aware of where each of them are. Color doesn't matter to me unless it's so bright that I can see it from a mile away. My home field has an active flight school and it's not unusual for the student's location to be a bit off from where they think they are. With ADSB and a pattern full of airplanes, the N number helps a lot for me to determine who is where ......... and where I will fit into the mix as I enter the pattern.

So N numbers may increasingly have a place in the radio call as ADSB becomes more prominent.

I was always told that it was the FCC that required a radio operator to identify his call sign, not the FAA, but I've never heard of the FCC actively listening to pilots to enforce this, if it's true.

This is a good point, regarding ADSB. It is a good SA tool and more of the big picture gets painted with a split second glance.

I believe there is a time and a place for both. Personally I was taught to use the full tail number on initial call up and the last three on subsequent calls. How much I use will vary with where I am and how busy it is.

Like Mike said, clear and concise. Keep your head on a swivel and do all you can to see and avoid.

It is humorous that this subject does come up about once a year.

And Amen to Phil! IFR approach references mean nothing to me if I don’t know the approach/area. Same with local, uncharted waypoints. We heard that a lot up in AK when visiting last summer.

I was always taught to identify the airport at the beginning and end of a transmission. When the first word in your transmission is the airport you're referring to, I didn't hear it. You utter it only to gather my attention. I need to hear it at the end. Sometimes when you say your intended runway, I can eliminate you from concern because the airport I'm at has a different runway, but I'd really like if you'd just repeat that info at the end! Thanks. Rant off.

Aircraft or tail number? What ever suits you and how you feel about the circumstances. I like to know type so I can estimate speed. That's about it. If you know where you are, that's helpful to both of us.

Wow, I'm sarcastic this morning! I'll try to work that out.

Barnstormer wrote:And what is this "last call" stuff I hear occasionally from airplanes leaving an area? Do they actually think anyone cares that it's their last call? Or will do anything...ever...with that important tidbit of information? Who teaches this stuff?

I always thought 'last call' was a way of addressing the person that made the last radio transmission. I always use it thus because I can't remember the call sign.

Barnstormer wrote:....I have to admit when I hear "T6" I am expecting to see a big slow radial......
...On approach (VFR day) would you please quit announcing you are on the "RNav approach" or some other IFR jibberish. I have absolutely no idea where any of that is. Just tell me how many miles out you are and what direction from the airport.....

JUst ran into this one yesterday, "at wiggims (or whatever) on the localizer approach".
I was midfield downwind and responded with "distance from airport please", no response.
JUst getting ready to turn base and there he was, on about a 1-1/2 mile final.
He coulda easily said "two south" or whatever, just to help out the VFR guys
( of which they were about 3 or 4 in or entering the pattern).

Re the T6, I've noticed that a lot of those warbird guys like to use "North American" in their position reports.
Hard to know if it's a T6 (slowish), a T28 (faster), or a P51 (fast).
Just like "Cessna" could be a 150, a 180, or a Citation.

CamTom12 wrote:

Bagarre wrote:I put the people who correct people's radio calls in the same category as the people who correct people's spelling and grammar on the internet.

Student's are taught to use their N number in every_single_call for consistency and instructors think is sounds soooooo professional.

What's more important is you get your location right so people know where to look for you.

I think you meant "every-single-call"

Yeah, and students, not student's.

Cary

Neither right nor wrong, but my habit is "Greeley-Weld traffic, Cessna xxx, mid-downwind one zero" or similar. I don't use colors (never got into the habit and can't see them from any distance anyway), and since most of my early training was at towered fields, I got into the habit of using the airplane's tail number. I never got into the habit of ending my transmission with the name of the field again. I also never got into the habit of saying "Skyhawk" or "Skylane" or "Skywagon" or "Centurion", although I can agree that those would be more descriptive than my usual "Cessna". Old habits die hard, and new ones are hard to form.

FWIW, I can't find anything in the AIM or elsewhere that definitively says what to say. I do know that being accurate about position is pretty important, both for me to say where I am and for others to know where I am.

I agree that saying I'm on such and such instrument approach isn't too useful to VFR pilots, or to IFR pilots unfamiliar with the particular approach, so I say it like this, "Greeley Weld traffic, Cessna xxx is on the RNAV one zero approach, 10 mile final straight in." As I get closer, I just shorten the distance a couple of times until I'm on about a 3 mile final, and then I don't say anything about being on an instrument approach, i.e., "Greeley Weld traffic, Cessna xxx is on a 2 mile final one zero"; "Greeley Weld traffic, Cessna xxx, short final one zero." If nothing else, it lets people know that I'm not being a butthead by flying a 10 mile final, but that it's part of a legitimate approach.

Like I said, I don't claim I'm right and anyone else is wrong, except that those who say they're somewhere that they aren't are very definitely wrong. We get a lot of that at both KGXY (Greeley) and KFNL (Fort Collins/Loveland, aka "Northern Colorado Regional"), because of student traffic. Seems like they aren't ground schooled very well on what the pattern really looks like, and what to say at different points in the pattern. I do get a kick out of hearing, "Skyhawk xxx is on left final."

Oh, and that "last call" thing--I keep hearing that lately, too, and all I can think is that someone in Denver is teaching that to students, because everyone that I've heard is leaving the local area southbound. I'm assuming that they say that and then switch frequencies. But it's a new one for me.

Cary

kg wrote:Having recently starting using ADSB and with the Scout unit magically tied to Foreflight on my iPad, I realized that many N numbers are displayed. So when N12345, N54321, and N98765 are all in the pattern, I am better aware of where each of them are.

That is a very interesting point...

I hear the “last call” quite a bit around my area, mostly by flight school planes. I will throw this out there. We’ve got a stretch from Logan to Ogden that is a busy corridor for planes with a minimum of three frequencies (LGU, BMC, and OGD) and an airport in between. And in this corridor, there is no defined place for people to switch frequencies. While I don’t personally use the phrase or teach it, it does maybe add a small bit to my SA by knowing who is on freq and roughly where they are. And if they leave the frequency early, that I won’t hear anymore position reports from that plane, especially if they left the frequency earlier than normal and we are opposite direction passing each other.


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