Since someone else bumped this old thread.....
First of all, Rob, what did you end up doing about your ASI last year? I've owned a couple Cessna's in the past which had the original ASI replaced with after-market. I would much rather someone had spent the time & money to OH the original Cessna instrument instead of buying a cheapie replacement. My current mount has a Cessna ASI but it's (slightly ) mismarked-- redlined at 180 instead of 184 & yellow starts at 140 instead of 160. So technically not legal but close enough for guv'mint work, and not a big deal as far as I'm concerned since the limits as marked are more conservative.

Secondly, Logpile, I think you might be able to put a G3X in your panel, but since it's not certified or STC'd it would probably have to be in addition to all required instruments that it is capable of replacing. In other words, it can't be a primary instrument.

Hotrod, I had my ASI overhauled by Airtech Instruments in Auburn Washington. I had them add the range markings to the inside at the same time.

Logpile wrote:Ok so I am new to the 170B. I just got a 53 170B with the Lyc O-360 180 HP.

So can I put a gamin G3X in the panel, of do I have to spend 3 time the money for a Certified MFD?

Best to ask a good IA, but my take has been, no--certified airplane = TSO'd equipment.

Cary

robw56 wrote:Hotrod, I had my ASI overhauled by Airtech Instruments in Auburn Washington. I had them add the range markings to the inside at the same time......

What did they charge you? On the local air taxi mechanic's recommendation, I had Rudy Aircraft Instruments overhaul a DG for me once-- good work, prompt service, reasonable price. Rudy lists ASI OH's @ $125 in their TAP ad.

Cary wrote:

Logpile wrote:Ok so I am new to the 170B. I just got a 53 170B with the Lyc O-360 180 HP.

So can I put a gamin G3X in the panel, of do I have to spend 3 time the money for a Certified MFD?

Best to ask a good IA, but my take has been, no--certified airplane = TSO'd equipment.

Cary

Nothing to ask an IA about... you can not put anything in/on an aircraft that is not TSO'd, PMA'd, or has doesn't have an STC. Only exception is with a field approval. Lots of folks will say otherwise saying that because of CAR 3 etc etc etc, but that's not how it works. Of course anything is legal until you get caught.

hotrod180 wrote:

robw56 wrote:Hotrod, I had my ASI overhauled by Airtech Instruments in Auburn Washington. I had them add the range markings to the inside at the same time......

What did they charge you? On the local air taxi mechanic's recommendation, I had Rudy Aircraft Instruments overhaul a DG for me once-- good work, prompt service, reasonable price. Rudy lists ASI OH's @ $125 in their TAP ad.

I believe it was $225, which was about half as much as a local shop quoted me down in California. Having them add the range markings to the inside was another $60. If that $125 is a current price it sounds like a pretty good deal.

Yeah, 125's the price for a "standard airspeed indicator" overhaul in Rudy's current ad in TAP. Marking & shipping would no doubt be extra. I'm in the Puget Sound area but I had no idea that the instrument shop was (still) on the field at Auburn. A lot of those kinds of shops are moving off-airport, due to increasing rent costs & non-user friendly attitudes from some public airport operators. For example, Aircraft Magneto Service used to be on Boeing Filed in Seattle, but several years ago they moved into the garage of the owner's house on Bainbridge Island. Most of their work comes in via UPS or mail, I imagine an instrument shop would be the same. BTW A/C Mag Service is getting ready to move to Montana-- even Bainbridge is getting too crowded for Cliff's tastes, and I'm sure that Washington's non-business-friendly stance is a factor also.

bigrenna wrote:

Cary wrote:

Logpile wrote:Ok so I am new to the 170B. I just got a 53 170B with the Lyc O-360 180 HP.

So can I put a gamin G3X in the panel, of do I have to spend 3 time the money for a Certified MFD?

Best to ask a good IA, but my take has been, no--certified airplane = TSO'd equipment.

Cary

Nothing to ask an IA about... you can not put anything in/on an aircraft that is not TSO'd, PMA'd, or has doesn't have an STC. Only exception is with a field approval. Lots of folks will say otherwise saying that because of CAR 3 etc etc etc, but that's not how it works. Of course anything is legal until you get caught.

Greg is right. Ask an FAA Maintenance type about this, they'll tell you what Greg posted.
I have seen (and flown) certified planes with Dynon EFIS that were field approved, but that door pretty much slammed shut some years ago. And those installations required all the original instruments and the EFIS was placarded "Not to be used for primary information".

I liked those a lot, but I doubt you'll get a field approval these days. If you don't mind spending the$$ for his time, ask your mechanic if he'll submit a field approval application....can't hurt to ask.

MTV

Oh, yeah, your cost comparison between the certified vs certified EFIS is a bit light on the certified side.

Those suckers are big bucks

MTV

If your flying machine is ok with a non-TSO unit, why not "overhaul" the airspeed indicator yourself? They are dead simple instruments mechanically-less complicated than a lot of other stuff that people have no problem diving into. An interesting hour of time might be more rewarding than a couple hundred for an OH & shipping.

Re TSO's: Several years ago, I wanted to install a new com radio in my C150TD. Talked to a local IA who talked to his PMI about it-- the PMI said a 337 was required either way (although I've seen plenty of radios installed with just a logbook entry). If it was a TSO'd unit, the IA could sign it off himself, but if it was a non-TSO'd unit the PMI would have to sign it off as a field approval. I planned on getting an Icom A200, and since they offered it in both TSO'd & non-TSO'd versions I just popped the extra hundred bucks or so for the TSO'd one.

Another IA told me that you needed TSO'd radios instruments etc if you were gonna get an IFR cert or put the airplane on an air taxi (or similar) certificate, but just for VFR part 91 op's non-TSO'd was OK. So two different interpretations of the requirements for TSO'd stuff. Interestingly, I believe the King KX170 nav/com was never TSO'd, yet it was a pretty standard piece of gear for years in airplanes used for both air taxi and IFR ops.

There's no question that non TSO radio equipment has been installed in aircraft in past. And, in fact, non TSO equipment is being installed at the factory by manufacturers today as well.

But, we got some Dynon EFIS installed in Super Cubs....about as "primitive" an airplane as there is, when it comes to certification....CAR 3 all the way. At the time, the Merrill Field FSDO in Anchorage was field approving them for us. Then, the Regional Office of FAA found out.....and you know what hit the fan. No more field approvals, and in fact, we had one plane that had the equipment installed, the 337 submitted, with the promise to sign, and the FSDO denied it. Only legal option was to remove the EFIS, according to the Region. This was a government plane, so they were informed that it would be operated as a "public aircraft", and have a nice day. They didn't rescind the previous field approvals at least.

There have been discussions for decades about this, but the bottom line is that the FAA at least is getting stricter and stricter in its interpretations of this stuff.

Good luck getting it done today. But, it may be worth a try.

MTV

What a PITA. Thank God for
E-AB class. The arbitrary interpretation of this subject makes my head spin.

I did a ton of reading on this a few years ago when I replaced a few gauges.

CAR 3 aircraft had their primary flight instruments approved based on the AN standards.
So, you can replace your ASI with another AN ASI.
If the gauge you're putting in is new - AN doesn't apply as the standard isnt supported.
So it needs to conform to the TSO for an ASI.
That's the case with any primary flight instrument that came in the plane or is required for IFR (if you fly IFR).
Your primary oil pressure and temp gauges need to be TSO'd as well but your fancy computer engine monitor does NOT. so long as you have the other gauges.

So, you could get a non-tso'd full glass panel approved so long as it wasnt your primary flight instruments.

The TSO requirement for radios applies to Part 135 operators only.This is a common misunderstanding.
Transponders need TSO'd cuz the FAR calls that out specifically.

Best bet - have your old gauge overhauled. I had mine done at Keystone Instruments a few years back for $200 or something reasonable like that. http://www.keystoneinstruments.com/
http://www.valavionics.com/installation ... craft.html

clear as mud

The only TSO'd items required are specified in Part 91. Examples of this are the transponder, the ELT, and altitude encoding devices. Aircraft that are certified under CAR are not required to have TSO'd items since the TSO did not exist at that time. The transponder, ELT, etc. all came into the picture well after CAR certified aircraft were built.
Where we run into problems is when we have to replace an instrument, for example, that is no longer manufactured. Now, as an IA, I have to find some means to approve a substitute. It must be "as good as" the quality of the previous instrument. A Technical Standard Order then becomes acceptable data since it verifies that the instrument in question is built to a FAA standard.
Now, how about a com radio? Must it meet a TSO? If the aircraft is to be flown privately, under Part 91, my answer to that would be no.
I think most IAs take the safe route and demand that all items be TSO'd just to cover themselves. It is regrettable that there are too many FSDO inspectors looking to burn mechanics.

lesuther wrote:If your flying machine is ok with a non-TSO unit, why not "overhaul" the airspeed indicator yourself? They are dead simple instruments mechanically-less complicated than a lot of other stuff that people have no problem diving into. An interesting hour of time might be more rewarding than a couple hundred for an OH & shipping.

Hmmm. Not unless you hold the appropriate A&P certification?

Otherwise, why not just maintain your whole aircraft yourself? Save big bucks on 100hr checks, annual inspections, and engine overhauls.

freddoflyer wrote:It must be "as good as" the quality of the previous instrument. ...... Must it meet a TSO? If the aircraft is to be flown privately, under Part 91, my answer to that would be no.

Where is 91 or 43 does it state that? Not trying to be argumentative, in fact if you find me the reference I will be using it alot, I just don't recall ever seeing non certified parts being approved substitutions....

Bagarre wrote:Your primary oil pressure and temp gauges need to be TSO'd as well but your fancy computer engine monitor does NOT. so long as you have the other gauges.

So, you could get a non-tso'd full glass panel approved so long as it wasnt your primary flight instruments.

Give that a shot, and let us know how that works out for you. I've seen that tried in a couple different jurisdictions, and told firmly NO in every case. Show me all the Certified airplanes out there running around with non TSO'd glass panels.....

MTV

Logpile wrote:Ok so I am new to the 170B. I just got a 53 170B with the Lyc O-360 180 HP.

So can I put a gamin G3X in the panel, of do I have to spend 3 time the money for a Certified MFD?

Couldn't do the GX3. Foreflight next best option.... With synthetic display. Here's the panel on the bench.
Installed. The empty hole is for the new Scandia multifunction back up instrument.

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