Can I legally install a non-TSO'd instrument in my 170? My airspeed indicator doesn't read zero when stopped on the ground, I'd like to fix it or replace it. I can get a non-TSO'd ASI for fairly cheap, a TSO'd one would be at least 3 times more. The 170 was certified under CAR 3 if that makes a difference.

I have no idea what CAR 3 means but am curious what that means to us in the way of making modifications to our planes.
Sorry for the thread drift Rob, but thought you might like to know also
Gary

Rob here's a thread from PNW fliers that discusses it. My basic approach is any equipment that came in the airplane, was certified in the airplane, or is listed on the origanal equipment list, will be replaced with tso'd parts. This would include the airspeed indicator. Thats just my approach but my view may different from yours because I do some things mostly to protect my IA certificate. That being said, I did instal a non-tsod audio panel in MY own airplane. Wait no i didn't

http://www.pacificnorthwestflying.com/i ... ic=11247.0

Rob, mine was in the same boat. Had it overhauled and refinished. Perfect and pretty for a fraction of new...

BTW... Can't use uncertified parts.

bigrenna wrote:Rob, mine was in the same boat. Had it overhauled and refinished. Perfect and pretty for a fraction of new...

BTW... Can't use uncertified parts.

How much was your overhaul?? $$

There's a thread on Super Cub currently about instrument O/H shops. Some good info there.

Can't believe the cost of new gyros and gauges.

Gump

Non TSO'd ASI is $167... TSO'd ASI is $508

Its required equipment so it must be TSO'd. I say it must but that only means it must if you want your panel and plane to stay above board. Its not like the police are going to show up at the hangar and confiscate it but it seems we are heading that way

Certified airplane has to have TSO'd gauges. Sometimes it's worth it to have yours overhauled, or to buy used yellow tagged, if you can find one. It has to be a true replacement--for instance, an airplane certified with an ASI in mph has to have a replacement ASI in mph--can't "modernize" by installing a knot-meter. Over the last 10 years, I've had to replace my DG, AI, ASI, altimeter, and compass. The only original gauge I haven't had to replace is the T&B--still works fine after 50 years, but I'm not going to hold my breath on it. I have also replaced my transponder and audio panel. All of these were TSO'd, because that's what is required. That's almost $3000 in dials alone! Plus the cost of the audio panel and and transponder. Not cheap to own an airplane, for sure.

Cary

Does anyone have a reference that's states an installed instrument must be TSO'd? Especially for an older aircraft certified under Civil Air Regulations part 3 (CAR 3). I find it ridiculous that my 61 year old instruments manufactured before TSO even existed are good enough but a brand new "NON-TSO'd instrument" just isn't good enough... Unless you have an experimental aircraft... then its perfectly safe and legal to fly with it in the same air that I do. Damn FAA and there rules .

I would approach this with resale value in mind. Sure you might plan to keep your plane for the next 10 or 20+ years. But you never know. I keen eye during a pre-buy inspection might frown on a non-TSO'd part and try to devalue the asking price or try to make you correct the problem with a TSO'd part. But that's just my opinion.

It's kind of like your house. Do a good quality repair/upgrade and the value and ease of selling should pay off come selling time.

That, and an IA might not sign off an annual with it in there. Gotta love the FAA keepin' us safe from ourselves.

Gump

I've heard of non-TSO gauges in certified airplanes. Must have been installed without an entry.

I am not certain of the legality myself, actually. My impression was that if it was on the MEL, it had to be TSO'd.

On the other hand, gyros and pressure instruments are among the simplest mechanisms on an aircraft. If you are going with a non-TSO option, and are still shy about the sticker, consider overhauling them yourself. You will chuckle at why you thought you should buy new non-TSO instruments after you are done.

The gyros are generally a simple matter of cleaning, filter replacement, bearing replacement, and sometimes some card adjustment. The bearings and filters are available from just about any bearing reseller (I've yet to be let down), or McMaster Carr.

The pressure instruments are dead simple to adjust, but tricky to calibrate. I would not touch them other than to clean without good pressure instrumentation. But sticky needles down low are a common problem and very easily fixed with a good cleaning. The rest of the calibration rarely gets out of whack,and when the altitude is off, it is often a simple bias screw that does the trick without affecting the rate adjustment.The pressure instruments are useless unless the seals are pretty much perfect after you are done.

So...spend 500 to OH a AI, or 2 solid hours plus 45 dollars of bearings,a filter, some dust off,and some cleaner. Your choice. It is even less for a DG.

robw56 wrote:Does anyone have a reference that's states an installed instrument must be TSO'd? Especially for an older aircraft certified under Civil Air Regulations part 3 (CAR 3). I find it ridiculous that my 61 year old instruments manufactured before TSO even existed are good enough but a brand new "NON-TSO'd instrument" just isn't good enough... Unless you have an experimental aircraft... then its perfectly safe and legal to fly with it in the same air that I do. Damn FAA and there rules .

From FAA Order 8900.1

4-1378. GENERAL. Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) requires that certain avionics instruments and equipment be approved regardless of whether the aircraft is operated as an air carrier or under general aviation.

A. Approval of Instruments and/or Equipment. The certification process for 14 CFR parts 91, 121, 125, and 135 must include verification that the required instruments and equipment are approved. The instrument or equipment approval can be accomplished by the following:

· Use of a Technical Standard Order (TSO)
· Acceptance as part of the aircraft on the original Type Certificate (TC) or Supplemental Type Certificate (STC)
· Parts Manufacturing Approval (PMA)
· Field approval (FAA Form 337, Major Repair and Alteration)

If its required, it needs one of the above forms of approval. So your $167 ASI can be installed with a Field Approval …..which will never happen

All of this begs the question. Since a DVD player isn't required for flight… can I install one without approval? Yeah right-

Thanks for that sixtwoleemer, that's what I was looking for.

SixTwoLeemer wrote:

robw56 wrote:Does anyone have a reference that's states an installed instrument must be TSO'd? Especially for an older aircraft certified under Civil Air Regulations part 3 (CAR 3). I find it ridiculous that my 61 year old instruments manufactured before TSO even existed are good enough but a brand new "NON-TSO'd instrument" just isn't good enough... Unless you have an experimental aircraft... then its perfectly safe and legal to fly with it in the same air that I do. Damn FAA and there rules .

From FAA Order 8900.1

4-1378. GENERAL. Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) requires that certain avionics instruments and equipment be approved regardless of whether the aircraft is operated as an air carrier or under general aviation.

A. Approval of Instruments and/or Equipment. The certification process for 14 CFR parts 91, 121, 125, and 135 must include verification that the required instruments and equipment are approved. The instrument or equipment approval can be accomplished by the following:

I'll add to the confusion....

I'm curious about this too so I looked up your reference... 8900-1, 4-1378... here's the link:

http://fsims.faa.gov/WDocs/8900.1/V04%20AC%20Equip%20&%20Auth/Chapter%2014/04_014_002.htm

I don't see where it says "part 91". All I see is "14 CFR parts 121, 125, and 135... "
What am I missing?

I'll admit I don't know the answer as I've researched this before and reputable people have given me different answers. I dunno....

What is in the fsims website does not list Part 91. http://fsims.faa.gov/

SixTwoLeemer where did you copy your information from?

This is what I pulled up from http://fsims.faa.gov/
http://fsims.faa.gov/WDocs/8900.1/V04%20AC%20Equip%20&%20Auth/Chapter%2014/04_014_002.htm

"4-1378. GENERAL. Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) requires that certain avionics instruments and equipment be approved regardless of whether the aircraft is operated as an air carrier or under general aviation.

A. Approval of Instruments and/or Equipment. The certification process for 14 CFR parts 121, 125, and 135 must include verification that the required instruments and equipment are approved. The instrument or equipment approval can be accomplished by the following:

· Use of a Technical Standard Order (TSO)

· Acceptance as part of the aircraft on the original Type Certificate (TC) or Supplemental Type Certificate (STC)

· Parts Manufacturing Approval (PMA)

· Field approval (FAA Form 337, Major Repair and Alteration)

B. Verification of Approval. Verification of approval can be accomplished by various means, such as visual inspection of the equipment manufacturer’s data plate and/or review of applicable records, such as flight manual equipment lists or maintenance records."

1. Note regarding ‘TSO’. The FAA is clear, TSO is NOT a stand-alone requirement for Part 91, Small Aircraft. It may be required for aircraft under part 135 or for certain types of operations, or for specific equipment (transponders, ELTs, etc.) TSO is a manufacturing standard, not a requirement.

2. The Cessna 170, as example, was certified under CAR-3 as TCDS A-799. The airplane was equipped with basic instruments (altimeter, airspeed, VSI, heading) that were NOT TSO’d. The ‘TSO’ or ‘PMA’ standard and requirement for certified aircraft did not exist at the time.

3. FAR Part 23 Airworthiness Standards: Normal, Utility, Acrobatic and Commuter) applies to aircraft with Type Certs dated after Part 23 became effective. Part 23 does not supersede the certification in C170 TCDS A-799. Aircraft with CAR 3 TCDS are ‘grandfathered’ to continue to operate under the rules of CAR 3.

4. FAR 91.205 does not require any of the instruments to be TSO’d. In
fact, many old Cessna’s continue to fly with just the basic (Non-TSO)
equipment listed on the aircraft TCDS and Minimum Equipment List.

5. FAA approval is still required to install equipment in a certified
production aircraft per FAR Part 21 (Certification Procedures for Products and Parts). A 337 submitted by a licensed mechanic that is not returned as disapproved by the FAA constitutes approval.

Ok so I am new to the 170B. I just got a 53 170B with the Lyc O-360 180 HP.

So can I put a gamin G3X in the panel, of do I have to spend 3 time the money for a Certified MFD?