Flying over a large body of water, bring altitude. Lots of it. And a good inflatable life jacket. Helps SAR find the body.........

That said, when I was young and not too bright, I pretty regularly flew single engine airplanes across Shelikoff Strait from Kodiak to Anchorage. And often that was a really low trip because of weather.

Today, if ''twas me, on the junket you're proposing, I'd go round, and enjoy the scenery.

MTV

Last year, my buddy was flying to OSH with his family when he heard some dude ask center if they would read him the OSH arrival NOTAM.

Don't be that guy.


If it hasn't been mentioned already, the OSH ATIS will say which two or three pages of the notam apply at the time, depending on the current runway configuration. Makes it reasonably easy.

Just DO WHAT IT SAYS! If the NOTAM or controller says to follow the tracks, FOLLOW THE TRACKS. That doesn't mean fly a straight line between the two ends of the tracks. The controllers were quite adamant about that as we headed in. The controllers on the ground need to know precisely where the next plane is coming from. Things get difficult if people cut corners and approach from a different direction than expected.

Lake Michigan is very cold, even in the summer. If you go down, you better be wearing a good inflatable life vest, and hope that you'll be picked up very soon after you ditch. That's the biggest problem with flying over water--things can and do happen. If your plan is to be within gliding distance of shore, you have to fly very high, even in a 170.

Like Mike, in my younger, dumber years I flew over Lake Michigan. Back then, I'd never experienced an engine failure--just the mock failures we all get in our training. I won't do it today. My total engine failure 14 years ago made me a real believer.

Cary

A lot of pilots like to bring an extra engine when flying over water.

Although, a lot of twins become gliders without one engine.

Single engine turboprop, would be okay I think.

Basically I am saying I would stay near shore.

Even you never had an issue along the way, it wouldn't be enjoyable since your heart would stop with every change in engine sound.

Airplaneflyer wrote:Looking into this trip a little more... I can either plan on B lining it straight from Lexington KY to North Fox Island, or head up to the bottom of the lake and fly the coastline up. I think the coastline would be cool and a little more scenic. Three questions...
1. Is his legal? I don't know why it wouldn't be.

Absolutely.

Airplaneflyer wrote:2. Good idea? Bad idea?

Coastline is a beautiful flight. That's what I would do.

Airplaneflyer wrote:3. I've never flown over a large body of water, what should I bring/plan for?

By the end of July the lake temps will be survivable. Bring a life preserver if you have one. Depending on what you are flying and how high you are you'll only be out of gliding distance for 10-20 minutes.

rw2 wrote:

Airplaneflyer wrote:Looking into this trip a little more... I can either plan on B lining it straight from Lexington KY to North Fox Island, or head up to the bottom of the lake and fly the coastline up. I think the coastline would be cool and a little more scenic. Three questions...
1. Is his legal? I don't know why it wouldn't be.

Absolutely.

Airplaneflyer wrote:2. Good idea? Bad idea?

Coastline is a beautiful flight. That's what I would do.

Airplaneflyer wrote:3. I've never flown over a large body of water, what should I bring/plan for?

By the end of July the lake temps will be survivable. Bring a life preserver if you have one. Depending on what you are flying and how high you are you'll only be out of gliding distance for 10-20 minutes.

Perfect. Thanks for answering all the questions

Looks like I need to get a good life preserver


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Here's a chart for the last 5 years of the Lake Michigan water temps, by month. Converting Celsius to Fahrenheit ('cause I don't think in Celsius), it looks like the average late July temp was about 63 F. https://coastwatch.glerl.noaa.gov/stati ... ?lk=m&yr=0

Now here's a human survivability chart: http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/hypothermia.htm

But keep in mind that some die within 3 minutes from cold shock, others survive but die after being rescued. In other words, there aren't any guarantees. Being a strong swimmer makes no difference, as hypothermia weakens everyone, and the effects linger long afterwards.

A few examples from my own experience during my misspent youth:

Rafting down the Salmon River in Idaho in early September as a relatively young (I think I was about 32), very healthy, very strong swimmer, one morning I thought I'd show my manliness (!) by swimming across the river and back. I dove in, and by half way across, I could hardly move. I laid onto my back and sculled back to shore, about a couple hundred yards downstream. It took most of the day to recover, and I was still chilled and shivering at dinner.

Boating on Lake Guernsey, northeast of Wheatland, WY, we were returning from an excursion and saw a small cabin sailboat suddenly flip in the gusty winds. We hurried over there to find 2 adults in the water, with the woman screaming that her baby was inside the boat. Being the very healthy, very strong swimmer that I was, now about 35, and with fantasies of being a hero as a trained WSI, I dove in, swam under the capsized boat, and pulled the 3 year old boy out of it to safety. I then stayed in the water as my friend used his boat to tow the sailboat to shore. I took a hot shower in the motorhome, but I remained chilled for the rest of the weekend.

Attending a conference in Reno, we were all recreating one evening at a lodge on Lake Tahoe. As that same very healthy, very strong swimmer, now a little older (I think maybe 38), I commented about the beautiful lake, and that if I had a swimsuit, I could swim out and around the sailboat that was anchored about 50' off shore. Calling my bluff, the barkeep magically produced a swimsuit. So I did it. Tahoe in July is magnificently cold! I made it, but it took everything I had to make it back to shore, and I shivered for the next 3 days, I think.

All joking aside, cold water immersion and the resulting hypothermia is a very serious thing. That's why today I would not fly over Lake Michigan, or any other body of water (except in a seaplane) unless I could be sure of gliding to shore and being rescued almost immediately. But then, I'm no longer the young, very healthy, very strong swimmer that I once was.

Cary

Out of gliding distance for only 10-20 minutes? Ahhhhh, no... More than that. Don't risk it, fly around.

Lots of dead people who never made it to shore after an engine failure in the states, Canada, Alaska and elsewhere. Even if the water is warm enough, you still have to survive the ditching or at least keep from getting hurt or knocked out. Airplaneflyer, don't be foolish, don't let anyone talk you into it with a false sense of security. This is one case you have the option to fly around, going to North Fox island is a different story, less water and no other option but over water. Minimize the risk, fly high, WAAAAYYYYY high, have good life vest, good shoulder harness and have a fun time at the island.

Kurt

In my Army unit, we practiced ditching in a "simulated" helicopter cockpit. It is incredible how disorienting it can be to have all that water rushing into the cockpit while you're upside down and sideways. Some of the guys in my unit panicked and had to be helped out by a safety diver on their first attempt. I did OK, but it was eye-opening for me. I cannot imagine trying to do that in ice-cold water, while worried about others in the airplane, etc.

Then, we practiced inflating and getting into the life raft. That, too, is a LOT harder than anyone thinks it will be. Wet clothes are heavy and create a lot of drag. Some guys never were able to get into the raft on their own. And that was with zero injuries (no broken arms or legs, no bruised hands, etc.).

Seriously - listen to the advice you're received from people suggesting that you "go around" rather then flying over the lake. Risk assessment consists of two parts: Likelihood and Consequences. The "Likelihood" of losing your engine while out of gliding distance of land may be pretty low, but the "Consequences" are severe – likely deadly.

As always, it is ultimately the PIC's decision, and no one can make it for you. But after going through the training I went through, there is no way I'm flying over water beyond gliding distance of land unless it's wartime, or I have some other life-or-death reason for doing so. Saving a few minutes of flying time does NOT meet the threshold for me...

Good luck to you. (And READ the NOTAM!) LOL

Also, when doing your weight and balance, account for the NOTAM.

If you print it out on paper to take with you, it will add a few pounds.

+1 on going around the body of water, too. I appreciate Cary's experiences. Good lessons that he learned for us.

FWIW, I can handle extreme temps fairly well. I work in harsh weather alot, and sometimes while wearing not very many clothes. I like colder weather. I am also youthful and full of energy.

BUT, that would make no difference if I went down in colder water. If you run your hand under very cold water, it does not take very long before you can notice your hand not moving the way it should. It takes much more effort.

... unless, of course, you are an artic seal. But then, you shouldn't be allowed to fly anyway.

Just so I'm clear with everyone, I'm not intending to fly down the middle of the lake. I'm asking if you would rather fly the coastline... water on left, land on right.... than fly inland.

And I am going to have a few copies of the notams, mostly to keep me warm if I ditch in the water.... that was joke.


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Yes, coast line is fine if you are within gliding distance plus a comfortable margin to the shoreline. Make sure you have your landing light on (get an LED bulb, last forever) and keep your eyes outside for the other airplane doing the same thing coming the other way.


Kurt

Made the flight from the Wisconsin side to North Fox a few times, if you fly up door county and over Washington island before turning out to sea its only 48nm across, if you continue north into the upper peninsula another 35 miles its only a 20nm water crossing. At the 48nm crossing my wet footprint is only 16nm if I cross at 12-13000ft, thats less than 10 mins of "I'm definitely swimming" time. crossing from the U.P. you can do it without a wet footprint at all.

North Fox is a really cool place and definitely worth an overnight, there is a beautiful sandy beach very close to the end of the runway that has a very shallow grade so the shallow water gets nice and warm.

Also this year is a first but Appleton (KATW) is offering camping on the field as well, they also have shuttle buses running all day to/from Oshkosh. It's a great alternative to dealing with the rather short hours to get into/out of Oshkosh.

Four of us leaving from Albuquerque and Del Norte Saturday for New Holstein and then Wednesday to Osh. Can't wait.

Magnet wrote:Four of us leaving from Albuquerque and Del Norte Saturday for New Holstein and then Wednesday to Osh. Can't wait.

Awesome! Hopefully I'll see you up there


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Airplaneflyer wrote:Just so I'm clear with everyone, I'm not intending to fly down the middle of the lake. I'm asking if you would rather fly the coastline... water on left, land on right.... than fly inland.

If you fly up from Kentucky, water on the left keeps you east of Lake Michigan and around the north end.

But flying VFR up the west coast of Lake Michigan, along the Chicago lakefront, is a blast. Just watch for traffic and talk to the right people. In July, I think it's at least as safe to fly over the water as over the suburbs. If my engine quits over the beach, I'll ditch as far out as I need to to avoid hurting people. If my engine quits over Oak Park, I'll likely hurt people on the ground. IMHO, there's no more hostile terrain than a sprawling suburb. To go far enough inland to reduce your risk, you'd have to go to Kankakee and Rockford. That's what I do in the winter or IFR.

Plans have changed from what I thought they would be...

Firstly, no more New Fox Island. I'm going to be joining a group coming from the West. Planning to leave Lexington Wednesday, spend night 1 in Chicago with friends. Then fly west to KMDS and camp for the night. KC29 for the Friday, and KDLL Saturday. Sunday morning headed to the New Holstein fly in and then onto OSHKOSH!!!!

I cannot wait anymore. Did some spot landing practice Wednesday night....

Airplaneflyer wrote:Plans have changed from what I thought they would be...

Firstly, no more New Fox Island. I'm going to be joining a group coming from the West. Planning to leave Lexington Wednesday, spend night 1 in Chicago with friends. Then fly west to KMDS and camp for the night. KC29 for the Friday, and KDLL Saturday. Sunday morning headed to the New Holstein fly in and then onto OSHKOSH!!!!

I cannot wait anymore. Did some spot landing practice Wednesday night....

Practice is good. I've been out twice in the last week, practicing level at 90 knots, spot landings, and right hand patterns. Good stuff.

Cary

After watching your video, there are a couple of things you need to do to make your "practice" for OSH more realistic:

1) You need to get comfortable flying a MUCH tighter pattern, because you'll need to be able to do so at OSH... Most light aircraft will be landing on runway 18 via Fisk Ave. And on that approach, you cannot fly North of the tower (or the Blue Dot on runway 18). That Blue Dot is roughly 1500 feet south of the end of the concrete pavement for runway 18. You have to be able to fly your base leg aiming for the Blue Dot, and still be able to land on the Yellow Dot, if that's what you get assigned... That is TIGHT!

To reiterate: You need to be able to comfortably land on Red, Yellow, or Purple dots from a base leg that aims directly at the Blue dot. That is pretty tight - only about 1500-1600 feet!

ATC wants you to remain South of the tower / Blue Dot on your base leg to Rwy 18 because the warbird & heavy traffic will probably be landing on Rwy 9/27 – which is just a couple of thousand feet North of that Blue Dot. ATC does not want you to intrude on their airspace. If you don't adhere to that, you'll probably receive a violation... Look at the runway layout using Google Earth (which is great for this kind of pre-arrival study. In fact it's great way to practice "flying" the entire OSH arrival procedure! ALL of them!)

For realistic practice, look at your local airport, and figure out where a 1500-foot base leg would be. Then practice making spot landings to the numbers using THAT approach. For Airplaneflyer, it looks like you're practicing at Georgetown Scott County, in Kentucky. If so, the middle of the pond on short final for Rwy 21 is pretty much 1500 feet from the approach end of runway 21. If you fly your base leg aiming at the middle of that pond, then make the turn to final and land on the numbers, THAT will be realistic practice for OSH. Do it until you are comfortable hitting a point 1500 feet beyond your base leg – which is the equivalent of hitting the Yellow Dot at OSH. Only THEN are you ready for OSH!

Note: Most (I'd estimate 90%) of the pilots landing at OSH float well beyond their assigned dot. The probable cause is that they haven't practiced slowing from 90 knots on downwind (max airspeed for my 7ECA) to landing speeds while simultaneously descending in that super tight pattern... Practice is your friend here...

2) The NOTAM calls for aircraft to maintain 90 knots, and ATC expects you to maintain that airspeed until you begin your descent (mid-field on downwind for the Fisk Av approach to Rwy 18, for example). If you don't do that you will create an "accordion effect" with airplanes closing up dangerously close behind you, and this effects not only those immediately behind you, but everyone in that very LONG line of airplanes extending back to Fisk... Don't be "That Guy" that everyone is talking about (cursing?)...

Most of us don't routinely fly our patterns this way, and we need to practice it BEFORE we get to OSH and have to do it for real... I believe those two things (really tight patterns and airspeed management) are the ones that increase the "pucker factor" for so many pilots at OSH. They have read the NOTAM, but they haven't really UNDERSTOOD it. When they say "maintain 90 knots" they MEAN IT... When they say "Keep the pattern tight" they MEAN IT... When they say "taxi clear of the runway immediately", they MEAN IT.

There are about a hundred other airplanes in the air within 2 miles of the airport, and EVERYONE has to be on their A-Game to make it all come together.

Oh, and did I mention: READ THE NOTAM!

JP256 wrote:After watching your video, there are a couple of things you need to do to make your "practice" for OSH more realistic:

1) You need to get comfortable flying a MUCH tighter pattern, because you'll need to be able to do so at OSH... Most light aircraft will be landing on runway 18 via Fisk Ave. And on that approach, you cannot fly North of the tower (or the Blue Dot on runway 18). That Blue Dot is roughly 1500 feet south of the end of the concrete pavement for runway 18. You have to be able to fly your base leg aiming for the Blue Dot, and still be able to land on the Yellow Dot, if that's what you get assigned... That is TIGHT!

To reiterate: You need to be able to comfortably land on Red, Yellow, or Purple dots from a base leg that aims directly at the Blue dot. That is pretty tight - only about 1500-1600 feet!

ATC wants you to remain South of the tower / Blue Dot on your base leg to Rwy 18 because the warbird & heavy traffic will probably be landing on Rwy 9/27 – which is just a couple of thousand feet North of that Blue Dot. ATC does not want you to intrude on their airspace. If you don't adhere to that, you'll probably receive a violation... Look at the runway layout using Google Earth (which is great for this kind of pre-arrival study. In fact it's great way to practice "flying" the entire OSH arrival procedure! ALL of them!)

For realistic practice, look at your local airport, and figure out where a 1500-foot base leg would be. Then practice making spot landings to the numbers using THAT approach. For Airplaneflyer, it looks like you're practicing at Georgetown Scott County, in Kentucky. If so, the middle of the pond on short final for Rwy 21 is pretty much 1500 feet from the approach end of runway 21. If you fly your base leg aiming at the middle of that pond, then make the turn to final and land on the numbers, THAT will be realistic practice for OSH. Do it until you are comfortable hitting a point 1500 feet beyond your base leg – which is the equivalent of hitting the Yellow Dot at OSH. Only THEN are you ready for OSH!

Note: Most (I'd estimate 90%) of the pilots landing at OSH float well beyond their assigned dot. The probable cause is that they haven't practiced slowing from 90 knots on downwind (max airspeed for my 7ECA) to landing speeds while simultaneously descending in that super tight pattern... Practice is your friend here...

2) The NOTAM calls for aircraft to maintain 90 knots, and ATC expects you to maintain that airspeed until you begin your descent (mid-field on downwind for the Fisk Av approach to Rwy 18, for example). If you don't do that you will create an "accordion effect" with airplanes closing up dangerously close behind you, and this effects not only those immediately behind you, but everyone in that very LONG line of airplanes extending back to Fisk... Don't be "That Guy" that everyone is talking about (cursing?)...

Most of us don't routinely fly our patterns this way, and we need to practice it BEFORE we get to OSH and have to do it for real... I believe those two things (really tight patterns and airspeed management) are the ones that increase the "pucker factor" for so many pilots at OSH. They have read the NOTAM, but they haven't really UNDERSTOOD it. When they say "maintain 90 knots" they MEAN IT... When they say "Keep the pattern tight" they MEAN IT... When they say "taxi clear of the runway immediately", they MEAN IT.

There are about a hundred other airplanes in the air within 2 miles of the airport, and EVERYONE has to be on their A-Game to make it all come together.

Oh, and did I mention: READ THE NOTAM!

Man that's an awesome response. Thanks for the good info!

I should have some time on the trip up there to do some more work.


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