The Cessna feature that fulfills the L part of STOL is its large forty degree flaps. Yet, during bi-annual flight review, I found many not using full flaps with gusts or crosswind. Yes, the controls are more effective at high speed but we have to slow down sometime.

During a slow power pitch approach, the lower pitch attitude afforded using full flaps is more comfortable and gives a better view of the LZ. At that time we are busy with landing and perhaps there is a better place to get comfortable with the grosser dynamic proactive control movement required at slower speed. Slow flight helps, but the environment is much different.

I suggest getting comfortable with the grosser dynamic proactive control movement required at slower speed practicing hover taxi the full length of the runway to the last taxiway turnoff.

At flair, on a power pitch approach like the apparent brisk walk rate of closure approach, add more power as necessary to maintain low ground effect flight down the runway. Like we have to move the rudder a lot to keep a tailwheel airplane straight when slow to maintain longitudinal alignment, we have to move the elevator and throttle a lot to bracket low ground effect. We can get more seconds of practice of gross dynamic proactive control movement over a long runway. Remember, on approach, landing, takeoff, or anytime we are directing our nose or our butt (crosswind) anywhere, we keep the wings level with rudder only, rudder only , rudder only.

I bought my C180 in May of last year. now with just around 140 actual flight hours in her and 436 landings. I can say that I Never use
40 degrees of flaps on landing. 20 degrees max and a good slip can get me down more comfortable.

when is the last time you flew a Cessna 180 with 40 degrees flaps and trim full aft and had a deer or animal cross the runway in front of you.
full power go around will require some SERIOUS forward pressure on the yoke to keep the nose down.

SCARY amount of pressure..

somewhere in my very small amount of experience, I thought i heard someone say that after 20 degrees of flaps in Cessnas
more flap is increase in drag and no more lift is generated just drag.
any truth to this?

another reason is the supposed myth of don't slip with 40 degrees flaps in some Cessnas, could block airflow to tail.
any truth to this?

Bradley

I use 40 degrees flaps 80% of the time.
With turbulent and or strong wind , 10 degrees or even no flaps.

I gone around with 40 degrees flaps,added full power, didnt liked it, reduced power and climbed no problem.
in many cases full power is not needed when aborting a landing, its more like add power as needed.

If you are heavy or at gross then there is no need to have the trim at full aft, more power will be needed but not as critical as having trim full aft.
Mine have electric flaps which retract slow, manual flaps in the 180 should work much faster too.

Over 2000 hours in my Cessna 180, and I have only landed without 40 degree flaps a few dozen times and that is for extreme crosswinds or very gusty days. In strong crosswinds I leave them at 20 and roll out on the upwind tire. Never had any buffeting issues with full flaps and full slips. Go try them at altitude, you will see it is a non issue.

doc_dyer wrote:I bought my C180 in May of last year. now with just around 140 actual flight hours in her and 436 landings. I can say that I Never use
40 degrees of flaps on landing. 20 degrees max and a good slip can get me down more comfortable.

when is the last time you flew a Cessna 180 with 40 degrees flaps and trim full aft and had a deer or animal cross the runway in front of you.
full power go around will require some SERIOUS forward pressure on the yoke to keep the nose down.

SCARY amount of pressure..

somewhere in my very small amount of experience, I thought i heard someone say that after 20 degrees of flaps in Cessnas
more flap is increase in drag and no more lift is generated just drag.
any truth to this?

another reason is the supposed myth of don't slip with 40 degrees flaps in some Cessnas, could block airflow to tail.
any truth to this?

Bradley

If the flaps stop producing additional lift at 20 degrees of extension, then you should be able to immediately dump the last 20 degrees with the only result being reduced drag and more manageable control forces. I have found that it does work this way. On a go around, the flaps and trim become a major area of focus, as the power is set until I'm up and away from terrain.

The Johnson bar with the lock button pushed in is a beautiful thing. It allows you to feel the effects of the flaps and change the setting for desired results without waiting around. There are useful flap settings available that are not indexed for when your right hand is free.

I noticed the tail blanking effect slipping with full flaps in the 170, but not so much in the 180. 180/185s have a lot more tail.

Full flaps will give more lift than 20 degree, it will also give you more drag. The advantage of more drag is you can use more power which will give you better control over the tail. It really is a win/win situation.
I just received my checkout in our new 1960 180. Prior to this I had about 4-6 hours in Cessna aircraft. Lots more knobs and stuff to handle than my cub but I am getting it slowly. Full flaps really helps slow the plane down and was really not an issue with a go around. Remember you normally don't have to climb that much just stop going down. Add only enough power to stop decent, and stay clear of runway. Once you are stable reconfigure for climb, than add more power. I ain't saying it will look pretty but it will get the job done. We do have a sportsman cuff and the plane is very stable with full flap stall power on stall just a mush after ASI stops reading. I am landing at 60 MPH now and for a cub guy that is fast!! One of the other owners is a 1900 pilot and thinks it slow. Just depends on what you are used to.

I do agree a full flap go around is a handful and not to be taken lightly but there are ways to make it easier. Contact makes a great point, find a long runway and hold it off. Flying slow just off the deck take some getting used to.
DENNY

With the Cessnas that had electric flaps and fuses, I just taught my students to keep flying with full flaps, if a fuse broke. You don't have to climb an airplane, just fly it.

Kingsley brothers have two 180s. out there. They use full flaps on all landings. They may ground loop sometime, like anyone. Having no hull insurance, they just don't want to destroy the airplane.

I'm not an "always" or "never" flyer, but...

In working C185s, and in my own C180s for many, many years and a whole lotta hours, I used 40 degree flaps probably 95% of the time. Especially on gusty days. Wheel or three pointers.

My goal on strong crosswind days was as slow a groundspeed as practical, and the quicker I transitioned from flying machine to driving on the ground machine the better. My usual was a tail low wheelie, kick the crab out as the upwind wheel touches, and dump flaps as the trainwreck starts rolling down the runway. Much easier on gravel/snow/ice than on pavement.

A go-around with 40 degrees of flap is a complete non-event, and slips with full flaps is also a non-event. You may get a little buffet in the tail, but nothing that didn't go away the instant you relax the slip the slightest.

Gump

I'm with Gump on this one.
Extremely seldom do I land in tailwheel without full flaps.
Maule, Cessna, Piper, Stinson, et al.
Chaz

An amazing tool that has proven itself over almost a hundred years now.

Definitely a 40 degree flap fan. When I learnt to fly I would always choose the one 172 the school had that had them. The 170B with the Johnson bar is a thing of beauty to me. It is so cool how steep I can point it at the ground without accelerating, and they are easy to dump.

My overriding argument to myself is that with 40 degrees I put the wheels on the ground at the lowest possible ground speed in any conditions. I don't slip with more than 20 degrees. If I am too high with full flaps then I am too high. Go around. Doing circuits with no flaps or limiting myself to 20 degrees is fun, but when I really need to nail a landing will always use 40 degrees.

Just my 2c. YMMV.

40 flaps 95% of the time, other 5% is in a strong tailwind. Good brakes are also a wonderful thing!

Heard some express concern about slips with 40 flaps too. Do that routinely as well, although there can be a significant buffet that is best to get comfortable with at altitude.

Use these same techniques in the PA-18 as well as the wagon.


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doc_dyer wrote:full power go around will require some SERIOUS forward pressure on the yoke to keep the nose down.

SCARY amount of pressure..

Bradley

Bradly,

On the forward pressure, one thing that I've always been coached to do on go around is after getting power in immediately start rolling in trim. Also not a bad practice to plan for the worst. I know an instructor that won't solo a guy (or gal) unless he can execute a go-around with full flaps and trim aft. Just incase stuff breaks and all.

As far as flaps at 40 go, the airplane is designed for their use. Nothing taboo about it. I'm not sure what year model you have but the earlier ones actually recommended full flaps and a 3 point for strong crosswinds. Good luck and congrats on the new 180.

Bill

GumpAir wrote:In working C185s, and in my own C180s for many, many years and a whole lotta hours, I used 40 degree flaps probably 95% of the time. Especially on gusty days. Wheel or three pointers.

My goal on strong crosswind days was as slow a groundspeed as practical, and the quicker I transitioned from flying machine to driving on the ground machine the better.Gump

Gump's statement here absolutely nails what I've experienced. I'm 40 almost always and have tackled my biggest crosswinds with 40. Get the tail down first and start steering. Like Carey says above too...minimum forward speed. To quote a salty former instructor of mine: "I don't find much value in practicing long field landings."

Ah, the infamous full flap go around. For Motoadve, it's important to understand the big difference between the later 182 and the 180/185: The trimmable stabilizer on the latter....a VERY powerful trim system.

But, so far at least, nobody seems to have found the "silver bullet" to deal with a full flap go around, so I'll offer the technique I figured out many moons ago:

First of all, it's important to understand why there is so much forward force required on a full flap go around. Again, it's that really powerful trim system.....and frankly, most of us are landing these things with a fairly far forward C of G. Which means to achieve a "Trimmed condition" on short final, with power back fairly far, you'll have a LOT of nose up trim rolled in to counter that C of G and the flap effects, etc. Now, you execute a go around, and YIKES!!! Most folks (except the Terminator) are going to be using both hands on the yoke, pushing like hell to keep the plane from pitching up and stalling.....not a great scenario. Turn loose with one hand to reduce power or roll in some nose down trim???? Sure, if your left arm is stronger than mine.....go for it. But, I don't like reduced power go arounds....mind you they can be just fine in certain circumstances, but what if there are trees out there, in the top of the windscreen?

So, here's my technique: On approach, with full flaps and power back a ways, I keep some nose down trim on the plane. Which means that I have to hold back pressure on the yoke....not huge amounts, but noticeable.

So, if I have to execute a go around, I push up full power, and because the trim is essentially set for level flight, I really don't have to do anything except push just a bit on the yoke. As the airplane reverses the downward movement, and actually levels in preparation for climb, I easily reach for the flap handle, and come back to 30, then 20 degrees of flap.

Simple solution. But, wait, there's more:

Many of us (except those super pilots out there) mere mortals have to work pretty hard to time the push on the yoke during a wheel landing in one of these airplanes. Why? That spring gear has a lot of spring to it, and just a tiny bit of downward vector at the touch is going to launch you back into the air.

So, back to the full flap approach technique: Some nose down trim, and thus, you're holding just a bit of back pressure (nose up) on the yoke. As you approach the surface, you flare to ALMOST the three point attitude, and hold it. Tail just a few inches off the surface. Which means you're holding just a bit MORE back pressure on the yoke.

There are two bits of good news here:

First, that tail low, almost three point attitude is going to get the airplane just about as slow as it's capable of landing.....as opposed to what a lot of folks call wheel landings, with the tail high, just rolling it on, whilst whistling along at 70.......Yow!! And, when it comes to landing, slower is good, in a whole bunch of ways, not the least of which the airplane is pretty much in a very low energy state, and therefore it is much less likely to bounce, and if it does, it will settle right back on.

Second, human nature suggests that what we all really want to do after a landing is to relax......tailwheel pilots know better than to try that one till the airplane is stopped......BUT: In the scenario I've described, the airplane is tail low, very low energy, thus less likely to bounce, and you're holding back pressure.....what you now want to do is to get the tail up, and thus "stick" the landing. And, all you have to do to initiate that process is to RELAX that back pressure.....and a half second or so later, apply some forward pressure to the yoke. And the airplane is on, the main wheels are stuck, the plane is pretty much done flying and bleeding energy rapidly, so now you stab and steer.

The beauty of this approach and landing is that it makes wheel landings very easy to pull off, because the timing of the push and the rate of descent at the touch are less critical.

Give this a try sometime, I think you'll like it.

As to big crosswinds, it depends on the surface, but on anything but pavement in a big and gusty crosswind, I'll be a full flaps, and three point the plane, stick it hard, and steer it, with ailerons full into the wind, and standing on the brakes.......It ain't pretty, but it gets er done.

MTV

40 degrees of flap has an additional safety effect because of the "washout" or geometric wing twist. This effectively "unloads" the outer part of the wing. A big part of this principle is that it reduces the LOCAL angle of attack at the wingtips, which will serve to delay or prevent tip stalls. So if you are flying in gusts, rough air, crosswinds, etc. with larger flap deflections you will have LESS chance of losing a wingtip, especially if/when you use ailerons.

The flaps DO continue to make more lift after 20 degrees of deflection, otherwise the stall speed would not be lowest with full flaps. They just start making a lot more drag than lift.

MTV , good point about the difference between older Cessnas and newer Cessnas trim system.
Never flown the older ones but they must be generating a lot more forces than newer ones.

motoadve wrote:MTV , good point about the difference between older Cessnas and newer Cessnas trim system.
Never flown the older ones but they must be generating a lot more forces than newer ones.

Oh, Yeah!!!

MTV

I like MTV'S approach. In fact, never climbing I never had to touch the trim. Just left it at cruise setting. Probably why I preferred smaller airplanes. Also they went slower so didn't scare me so much.

Yes, with a loaded Pawnee I had to wind up that big spring trim.

I have a buddy that also flies a 182. He makes consistently beautiful landings with barely a squeak as the mains work their way down ever so slowly to caress the asphalt. When he flies with me, I can feel him tense up as I throw in the rest of the flaps and set up a steep descent with the stall horn chirping as we close with the impact point. I am sure any non-pilot would much rather fly with him, and feeling sorry for me he would make a few gentle suggestions from time to time: "You know I seldom use more than 10 degrees of flaps and carry a little more speed so that the flair is nice and mellow, and you don't have to add that extra power.."

Then one day he had a run-in with a short runway under less than ideal conditions. The outcome was ok, but after that I noticed his comments changed to more along the lines of "Wow, you always use the first turn off don't you?" and "You always land on that same spot don't you?"

Still have never gotten a "Nice one!" out of him though.