I have no Cessna 180 time but one thing I found that helps me is to trim just a little forward pressure on to the stick so instead of using forward pressure to pin it on (two wheeler) you just release back pressure.

I'm also not sure that her having that thumb out and holding to the strap while looking out the window counts as a thumbs up. Congratulations on your purchase.

dirtstrip wrote:I have no Cessna 180 time but one thing I found that helps me is to trim just a little forward pressure on to the stick so instead of using forward pressure to pin it on (two wheeler) you just release back pressure.

I'm also not sure that her having that thumb out and holding to the strap while looking out the window counts as a thumbs up. Congratulations on your purchase.

DS..you are right. I had forgotten all of the experimentation I did with the C-170 and the trim to find the "Sweet Spot" for a good landing. The trim for the C-170 on final was foreward, the trim for the Citabria on final is backward.
HC

Minimum speed is definitely the first priority, as mentioned. But to get minimum speed with only one or two aboard (forward CG), you would have to use the engine power to put enough air on the elevator to push the tail down enough.

Touching down just a hair wing-low will soften or eliminate minor bouncing in a lot of cases. I have no 180 time to speak of, but that technique has worked for me on other airplanes that are sensitive to bounce. Of course it's "cheating" from a purist point of view, but it works pretty well. I'm guessing the high time AK guys would tell you that all the purist textbook stuff is thrown out the window in real bush flying anyway. Preventing a small bounce at touchdown can also prevent a worsening PIO-bounce progression that can possibly lead to an over-run or other unwanted excursion. That alone would be worth "cheating" on the textbook three-pointer.

It's my understanding that having the little VG's under the tail slightly increases elevator power at low speed. I'm not sure if you can do that without the rest of the wing VG kit.

The easiest "mechanical" thing you can do, is to make yourself a big bad-ass back country survival and airplane repair kit, complete with 2500 rounds of ammunition, ten cordless drill batteries, and several sledgehammers for driving tent stakes... and put it as far back in the airplane as you can get it (and then some if you're adventurous). Strap it down securely (I personally new a man who was killed because of a ballast weight coming forward in an off-airport landing).

I would not be surprised if your survival/repair kit has to be big enough that you couldn't have it in the airplane when you have all four seats filled (or maybe a few less sledgehammers). but that it would make all the difference with one or two aboard.

IMHO resist the temptation to run the seat all the way forward after you get your big tires installed. I've heard of people doing that to maximize visibility, but they put themselves in a very unsafe flying position, and cannot use the flight controls properly. Jack yourself up with cushions under your butt, and rudder pedal extensions if needed, but don't squish yourself forward into the instrument panel trying to see over the nose.

Thanks for the advice guys!

I've tried several different ways. Both trimmed slightly aft for a hands off approach and trimmed slightly forward for a flat wing approach. Most of the time I touch down between 45-50 indicated with the stall warning going off.

My problem is I seem to be landing tail first, then creating a bit of a drop/energy on the mains and then bounce. Sometimes the tail/mains will bounce back and forth out of sequence and this gets pretty ugly, usually resulting in a go around. I've tried landing on the mains, but this usually ends up with a "skip" due to the extra energy needed to land on the mains resulting in poor short field technique. If it trim nose forward for a "flat wing" approach, I can get stopped extremely short (about 300-400ft at 6600ft MSL) but the bottom really drops out and results in a "firm" landing with no bounce. I like this spot landing characteristic, but I question how hard this is on the plane (I need to get quicker/better with power inputs perhaps). Dumping the flaps and adding foreword stick will tame things down most of the time.

I'll have to try Rob's technique of landing one main first and see if things improve. My landings are safe, but when my wife tells me "that was the worst landing you've ever had!", I feel the need for improvement. The land-o-matic gear on the Stinson has sure spoiled me on finesse issues.

Tadpole: The tires I have on it now are 8x6.00 Goodyears. I will be keeping them and swapping them out for cross country's and to reduce the wear on the 31s.

MTV: Thanks for the advice about the steps. I might need an 8ft ladder to get to the oil and fuel caps after the 31s are added.

AKT: No STOL kit on this bird and the main gear seems extra stiff.

I think once you get the 31s on it will help you out a lot when it comes to hitting tail first. And of course the softer tires will absorb a lot of the energy and keep you from bouncing back up like you do with the little tires.

Matt,

Next time you go to fly, just sit in the plane for a bit after your run up. Get a REALLY good sight picture, particularly figure out where the horizon line cuts across the cowl. Fix this in your mind and your peripheral vision.

For a three point landing, this is the precise attitude you need to rotate to prior to touchdown. Not higher. This is one of the things many people have trouble with: over rotation....they start the flare, and continue to raise the nose. Don't. In the flare, rotate precisely to this three point attitude, then stop the flare. If it happens you're a tad too high, add just a SQUEAK of power. It takes hardly any power to soften the descent...too much and you'll float forever.

For a tail low wheel landing, you flare and rotate to ALMOST that three point attitude, but just a smidgen less angle of attack. Ideally, I want the tailwheel an inch or two off the runway when the mains touch, but the tailwheel is NOT touching until I'm ready to put it down. Again, you can use a LITTLE bit of power, which both helps soften the touch and also allows you to fly to a slower speed prior to touchdown, but here the power is permitting you to fly to a higher angle of attack prior to the touch. RIGHT at the touch, the yoke comes forward at least some. This pins the mains on the runway, loads much of the weight of the plane onto the mains, and gets the tail (and rudder) up into nice clean air. Remember, tail low, that rudder and vertical fin are operating in VERY disturbed air coming off the flaps....and those are BIG flaps. So, at the touch, yoke forward to more or less level the airplane (tail up, level flight attitude), continue the yoke forward till the tail begins to stall, then lower it to the runway, and yoke comes all the way BACK.

Rolling in some nose down trim just prior to landing really helps most folks in that what most of us subconsciously WANT to do after landing is relax.....With the trim nose down, at the first touch, all you have to do is relax that back pressure you've been holding against the trim to keep the tail down, and voila! Airplane rolls on, tail comes up, and now you just have to steer it. Sorta. One moment later, of course, you need to keep the yoke coming forward to keep it pinned. But, that nose down trim gives us a half second to relax, and THEN react. Its really very natural.

Beware the "neither fish nor fowl" landing, where the tailwheel is kept slightly off the runway, but with a very nose high pitch attitude. Because of that disturbed air coming off the flaps and fuselage, that tail low attitude gives the rudder MUCH less authority in this attitude. Look at your plane sitting on the ground and try to visualize the air coming off the inboard ends of the flaps.....

I'm not sure what you're describing with the "flat wing" descriptions.....but hopefully, this has explained what I advocate.

More or less.

Spring gear airplanes are nothing sophisticated...and actually, the 180 has about the nicest spring rate to weight of any of the stock Cessnas, in my opinion. But, they do take a little more getting used to than some other gear types.

Finally, I tell everyone who's moving into a new to them Cessna taildragger......Get the thing put on grease plates and verify the gear alignment. I have seen people acquire a Cessna, fly it till it scared the crap out of them, then sell it....mostly because the gear was out of alignment. A while back I was told by a VERY experienced sprayer who's flying a turbine Air Tractor that I must be really good, cause the only tail dragger he's flown that scared the shit out of him was a Cessna 170. I told him I could tell him EXACTLY what was wrong with that airplane. I blew my cover.... Never attempt to dissuade a fellow who thinks you're good...

Sometimes, the gear is close enough in alignment that you won't even notice it MUCH unless you're in perfectly calm winds.....Sometimes, they're flat ugly. In any case, it's pretty easy to CHECK the gear alignment, and well worth the effort and $$ in my opinion. Gear's well aligned?? Then that swerve was ALL me

MTV

Matt,
Look up the thread on skywagons.org about the MAF wheel landing technique. I think it was posted by Bill White, not sure. It helped me a lot. Really works well. Come over some time and we'll go play!

....forgot about the the gear alignment I had to do on the C-170..glad someone mentioned it. I had to experiment with wedges to get the gear aligned..tough to do because when taking the plane on and off the jacks, the wheels don't align right until the weight is square on the landing gear (hope I said this right). If I remember right this took several days and seven or eight trials to find the right combination.
With the power off stall landings to three point my input to the elevators was always a pull back..never from foreward stick through neutral to pull.
Example:

Kinda hard to see the elevators...but...



I touched down within a couple feet of the white flag line.

Another thing to do Matt....video your landings. Sometimes watching what you are doing feels different than what you are doing. I have many hours of my landings with the C-170.

Matt,

Keep it simple. Avoid any "techniques" that always require "this or that" for landing. Those will fail you in an emergency. You want your flying to be intuitive. Took me a little time to figure out how to grease my 185 on. I fly out of a 1,500 grass strip and just couldn't get her on smooth. So one day her and I flew over to a 4,000 foot grass strip so I wouldn't be worried about running out of runway and trying to force her down.

That let me play with different speeds, angles, and so on, and do what we were originally taught - hold her off, hold her off, hold her off, hold her off, hold her off. Do this and you'll stop landing tail first and dropping in the mains - I'm always amazed at how tail wheel planes will put all three wheels down at the same time when we do our job right.

And don't get accustomed to using the ASI on landing either as the speeds change as your load changes, gusts change etc. - just feel the sink rate and compensate as needed.

Hope this helps you, it works for me. Most important...have fun!!

Hours will solve all your problems. Of course a trip to Fort Collins and an hour with Dave Younkin also does wonders to accelerate the learning curve, he's the sky wagon master.

I can't say enough about what my aoa has done for my landings, three point or tailwheel, but I don't want to start another debate about that .

Brad

Wow, thanks for the sound advice everyone. I've made some notes and will head out to the local astro turf strip to polish up next week. I'll set up the camera and take videos of my landings. This should really paint the complete picture of what's going on.

Perhaps in a few weeks, I'll get smiles from my wife instead of the white knuckle death grip.

Practice, practice, practice.....

Practice, practice, practice.....

We all need that, even when our airplanes (like mine) have the little wheel in the front.

Cary

hicountry wrote:....forgot about the the gear alignment I had to do on the C-170..glad someone mentioned it. I had to experiment with wedges to get the gear aligned..tough to do because when taking the plane on and off the jacks, the wheels don't align right until the weight is square on the landing gear (hope I said this right). If I remember right this took several days and seven or eight trials to find the right combination.
With the power off stall landings to three point my input to the elevators was always a pull back..never from foreward stick through neutral to pull.
Example:

Kinda hard to see the elevators...but...



I touched down within a couple feet of the white flag line.

Another thing to do Matt....video your landings. Sometimes watching what you are doing feels different than what you are doing. I have many hours of my landings with the C-170.

Just a tip for you guys doing gear alignment, get a couple of pieces of sheet metal to put under each main wheel. Put a thin layer of grease between the plates the roll the plane onto them. This will allow the spring gear to settle out and the plates will slide around on each other. Then you can use plumb bobs, long straight edges, squares, etc. to check and adjust alignment.

I second MTV's advice, especially on working on the sight picture. If you're landing tailwheel first, that is simply a matter of getting the right landing attitude and then holding off. That part should be easy to fix, as MTV said sit in the plane on the ground and memorize sight picture.

Also can get some good practice actually by intentionally not landing. My original tailwheel instructor used to have me fly the length of the runway in the landing attitude holding 6 inches off, and he would whack me on the back of the head if I let the tailwheel touch . It really helped me cement the sight picture at landing, as well as tune my stick and rudder skills maintaining centerline and aligned (the flying that is, not the whacks).

And if you do get a bounce, it's amazing what just a touch of power and back into the right landing attitude will do--assuming you have enough runway. Just settles back down.

Hey Matt. You oughta swap those 31's for some 29's. They're a little better for a 180. Unless they are used and paid for already. the bounce in cessnas spring gear is put there to save you time and gas money. You can 3-5 touch n go's in on each landing. Lessens your go arounds. Just takes time and feel. It will just click one day. And then you will still bounce it when someone's watching. Have fun feeling it out. Cool plane man. Hope to get to meet some of you guys one day.

Congrats on the plane Matt and Katie! I can't believe I missed this thread, but at the time I was up to my eyeballs in trying to get our plane...and the holidays! So happy for you both!!! Can't wait to see it.

My landings have improved a fair amount. Thanks everyone for the great advice. A few low passes over the runway really help me nail in the sight picture. Also working the throttle at slow speeds helped reduce the bounce. I feel pretty comfortable landing "short" for being new 180 driver in a stock plane. I have flown it over 20 hours and I can't say enough good things about it.

Well, the retro wagon is going down for a few weeks and now becoming a project. A few general questions:

I will be replacing the old and tired rubber on the edges of the engine baffle with silicone. What are your recommendations? 3/32" or 1/8" thick? Screws or rivets? Buy the 3" strips or a sheet?

Recommendations on window seals?

Recommendations on wing strut seals?

Thanks

MtnMatt, yaHOOO And for what it's worth, ya done good at the Skywagon Ranch before burnishing your landing and takeoff technique.

You might look into the McFarlane "Cowl Saver" baffle material. I haven't worked with it myself, but it "looks" good, and the standard cowl baffle stuff can leave some nasty abrasion scars on the aluminum cowl parts. Does anyone know what Beegle's is using in this application? It's REALLY REALLY important to get the soft baffles right, to assure adequate deltaP (pressure differential) for good cooling. But then you knew that....

Thanks. cubscout

Thanks cubscout. The previous owner stated he had no cooling issues. I have had no issues either unless I'm in a slow, long, and steep climb (then it creeps up above 360 CHT.)

But, this is what is under there now. I'm pretty sure it has been this way for 55 years. I dig retro, but I see room for improvement....

Reminds me of mine...which I also think has been on there for ever. Let me know what you use as I will be doing this at a point sooner than later.