A1Skinner wrote:Just keep in mind that even though the keys are out, the prop can still be loaded. I feel that too often people think that because the keys are out, they are safe.
How many of us faithfully do our dead mag checks at the end of every flight?

Another thing I'm adding to my tool bag. I check mags in flight occasionally to keep an eye on my ignition systems, but haven't been doing dead mag checks after flying.

This has been a great thread for me, learning what I've been slacking on. Glad the guy in the OP's story is going to be good and that his unfortunate accident gave us all a chance to talk about how to avoid a similar or worse outcome

Company I work for (TAC Aero) just bought a J-3 and an L-3. Neither have an electrical system, so we had a workshop last week to learn how to hand prop them correctly. We each had a turn at being in the cockpit and a turn doing the hand propping. Lots of good comments in this thread. My two favorites are that the prop should be treated like a loaded gun and that it's not how hard you spin the prop, it's the spring releasing in the mag that causes the spark. There is a real technique to doing this and it should be learned from someone who knows what they're doing, not self taught. This is serious business

Is this treated as a prop strike such that the engine has to be split and checked now?

I've hand-propped a number of airplanes over the years, but I have to tell my favorite (again--seems like I tell it every so often).

I was taking aerobatics lessons at Boulder, and I was going through a divorce. One Saturday, I just had to get away, so I hopped in the TR182 and flew down to Boulder, hoping my instructor would be there. He wasn't, but a little woman in a red jumpsuit was there, and she said she would fly with me. "Are you an instructor?" "Yup." No other introductions. She seemed a bit grumpy to me.

So we walked out to the Super Decathlon, preflighted it, and took off for the aerobatics practice area. She wanted me to show her what I knew, so I did a couple of nice loops, a couple of really great "competition" spins, and then a really crappy roll. She said, "let me have the airplane, so I can show you what I'd like you to do." That little Decathlon totally changed character in her hands.

We flew for about an hour, her demonstrating every time I didn't do it quite the way she wanted, and then headed back. She filled out my logbook, and then she said, "Is there anybody here who can hand prop my airplane? I need to get to my next gig." I said I could, so we walked out to her little red Pitts. I propped her airplane, and watched her take off for wherever.

I walked back into the office and commented, "that little woman is sure an odd character, but man oh man, can she ever fly!" One of the fellows said, "don't you know who you just flew with?" "No, who was she?" "That's Betty Stewart, World's Aerobatics Champion!"

Later it dawned on me that I'd seen her do her championship flight. A friend, my step-bro, and one of my sons had flown to OSH the year that it was there, 1980, and that was the year she won the World Championship.

Cary

Great story Cary!

The 1980 World's was a giveaway because all the competition from the Eastern Bloc stayed away, but she won it fair and square in Austria in '82. She joked to me that she had to fly 30% better in her Pitts than the competition in their monoplanes, but that it wasn't a major obstacle (confidence!).

Here's a video of hand propping a Pitts (Betty's), empty weight an unbelievable 740 lbs. In those days both the pilots and planes were skinny, as confirmed by Cary

a little woman in a red jumpsuit was there

We all hand propped, and getting a row of hot, fuel-injected high compression Lycomings started at a contest kept everyone in practice, and slim. No radio, no starter, no battery, just a spacer instead of a ring-gear. Now we have B&C and Skytec starters, small batteries, lithium jump start packs, and a lost art.

1st let me say that I'm glad the fellow was lucky to survive a hit on the head. Have to be fully aware of spinning props, there was a woman that backed into a spinning propeller, disaster.

A1Skinner wrote:

CamTom12 wrote:

scottd170 wrote:I never leave the cockpit without placing the keys on the top of the panel. This way, wherever I am around the plane, I can see the keys are out of the ignition and the mags "should" be off.

This is something I do not currently do that I am going to start doing from now on. Thanks!

Just keep in mind that even though the keys are out, the prop can still be loaded. I feel that too often people think that because the keys are out, they are safe.
How many of us faithfully do our dead mag checks at the end of every flight? I'll be the first to admit that I slacked in that department. Once I started to work on planes for a living, I now realize how important that check is... thankfully I had a good teacher that taught me to always treat a prop as live.

Glad that the fellow in the OP will just have a scar to remind him of today. Could have been much worse.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

Never heard of a dead mag check - please explain.

corefile wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:

CamTom12 wrote:[quote="scottd170"]I never leave the cockpit without placing the keys on the top of the panel. This way, wherever I am around the plane, I can see the keys are out of the ignition and the mags "should" be off.

This is something I do not currently do that I am going to start doing from now on. Thanks!

Just keep in mind that even though the keys are out, the prop can still be loaded. I feel that too often people think that because the keys are out, they are safe.
How many of us faithfully do our dead mag checks at the end of every flight? I'll be the first to admit that I slacked in that department. Once I started to work on planes for a living, I now realize how important that check is... thankfully I had a good teacher that taught me to always treat a prop as live.

Glad that the fellow in the OP will just have a scar to remind him of today. Could have been much worse.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

Never heard of a dead mag check - please explain.[/quote]
I thought it was a common thing. Every aircraft checklist that I've seen had it on there.
Just before shutdown, at low idle, turn your mags off. Make sure they are not firing and turn your mags back on. Then shut down as normal. This just ensures that your mags are actually grounding via the P-Lead. Works great.

David

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

It goes without saying the guy is very, very, very, very lucky....

"Treat a prop like a gun, assume it's loaded."
Perfect analogy.

Only thing I would add is do it quick otherwise you may backfire as unburned fuel detonates in the exhaust on restart. For this reason I do it at idle with the mixture pulled back almost to idle cutoff.

Karmutzen wrote:The 1980 World's was a giveaway because all the competition from the Eastern Bloc stayed away, but she won it fair and square in Austria in '82. She joked to me that she had to fly 30% better in her Pitts than the competition in their monoplanes, but that it wasn't a major obstacle (confidence!).

Here's a video of hand propping a Pitts (Betty's), empty weight an unbelievable 740 lbs. In those days both the pilots and planes were skinny, as confirmed by Cary

a little woman in a red jumpsuit was there

We all hand propped, and getting a row of hot, fuel-injected high compression Lycomings started at a contest kept everyone in practice, and slim. No radio, no starter, no battery, just a spacer instead of a ring-gear. Now we have B&C and Skytec starters, small batteries, lithium jump start packs, and a lost art.

That's her--and the airplane that I remember. It's a little hard to tell from the video, but she's really quite small, I'd guess about 5'1" or thereabouts. Although she says that she wanted to do airshows, Betty never did get active as an airshow performer, so far as I know. She continued doing competitions, and the latest I've been able to learn, she mostly judges competitions now. That gal could really make an airplane sing!

On the issue of checking mags to make sure that they ground properly just before shutting down: if you're going to shut the mags clear off in the process, do it at the slowest idle that you can, throttle all the way out. Otherwise, it's possible to get a pretty bad backfire that can be damaging to the exhaust/muffler. A better way, I think, than shutting it clear off is at normal ground idle, shut off one mag at a time and watch the idle drop about 100 rpm each time. That checks the P-leads adequately and totally avoids any backfiring possibilities.

Cary

Mountain Doctor wrote:Only thing I would add is do it quick otherwise you may backfire as unburned fuel detonates in the exhaust on restart. For this reason I do it at idle with the mixture pulled back almost to idle cutoff.

Yes, sorry I didn't add that. But you are correct sir.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

Another precaution I always take is whenever the master switch is turned on it is announced, and for the prop to be clear. I had a alarming surprise one day when I showed up to work and my boss told me the 180 out on the line needed the starter fixed and didn't provide any more information than that. So I headed out there pulled the cowling and was going to do some simple trouble shooting to see if I had power to all the right places before I pulled the starter. I went around and turned on the master and pow! the prop started turning over no problem. Turned out the starter solenoid was stuck on and the owner towed it over to the shop and left a note "the starter is broke". Thank the lord nobody was standing in the way or had walked up to the plane at that moment. Also got lucky I had put the cowling out of the way too.

A1Skinner wrote:...Just before shutdown, at low idle, turn your mags off. Make sure they are not firing and turn your mags back on. Then shut down as normal. This just ensures that your mags are actually grounding via the P-Lead. Works great. ....

Should be done this way, not just by checking for drop with switch in LH & RH positions.
The switch itself could be bad, and grounding the respective mags in the RH / LH position but not in the off position.
There's an AD about this on the Bendix ignition switches a lot of us have, AD 76-07-12.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... t=76-07-12

SkyLarkin wrote:Another precaution I always take is whenever the master switch is turned on it is announced, and for the prop to be clear. I had a alarming surprise one day when I showed up to work and my boss told me the 180 out on the line needed the starter fixed and didn't provide any more information than that. So I headed out there pulled the cowling and was going to do some simple trouble shooting to see if I had power to all the right places before I pulled the starter. I went around and turned on the master and pow! the prop started turning over no problem. Turned out the starter solenoid was stuck on and the owner towed it over to the shop and left a note "the starter is broke". Thank the lord nobody was standing in the way or had walked up to the plane at that moment. Also got lucky I had put the cowling out of the way too.

After a reputable shop replaced the engine in my Cirrus (got 2950 hours out of that original IO550) I was experiencing some strange electrical happenings, like high indicated current draw. I was flying it back to the shop that did the replacement and stopped along the way for a restroom break. When I went to start up, the battery exploded with a loud BANG, smoke coming out of the cowling, acid all over, etc.

The shop on the field cleaned it up and we got a replacement battery. Not knowing exactly what the problem was, we were all being extra cautious when they installed the new battery. I had the master off and the keys out of the ignition and in my hand and feet on the brakes. When the mechanic connected the second cable to the battery, the prop turned briskly! Both the starter switch and master switch in the MCU were fried shut!

Pierre

I do biannuals and am always surprised at how many pilots that never thought about doing a check to see if indeed the switch does cut off both mags. Always treat a prop as if its hot.

Tom

Betty is a good friend, she coached me through learning acro in my tcart. She is a tough coach. She did the airshow circus for 7 year and hung it.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

The kid in the OP is lucky to be alive.

A number of years ago a local dentist (and close acquaintance of mine) was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, I think that may have played a role. He had a really nice 182 he was selling and going to show that morning so he got out to the airport early. His co-owning partner arrived a short time later to find him dead on the hangar floor under the prop, once on the head and twice between the shoulder blades. The engine wasn't running but it had fired enough to get him.

My aircraft is non-electric also. I've got a set routine for starting, and I don't allow anything to distract me when I'm starting.

March of last year I flew to a local pancake breakfast one beautiful Sat. morning, and saw a guy that didn't know what he was doing come within a hare's breath of getting seriously hurt. There was a Ercoupe that parked between me and a Malibu and apparently the starter had been acting up on it which didn't surprise me since the Ercoupe was awful rough looking. I had spoken with the Malibu pilot/owner earlier because he had landed right behind me. Just to keep it short I'll say that I got the Ercoupe started with one little flip.

I've got no idea how the Malibu driver managed to move the prop as far as he did with hot mags, and it not firing. Ham-fisting the end of the prop like he was holding the handle of a big mug of beer from 2:00 all the way up through 12:00 slow and deliberate. The impulse coupler snapped at about 1-1:30.

It wasn't me, I swear!