So I go through spurts of spending a moment or two on BCP once a month or so but then I get jazzed about how much knowledge is out there and how accessible that knowledge is as long as I don't come across too much like a clown

So... I'm super super super new to the process of purchasing an airplane and the lofty ideals of what I'll do with my "first" airplane (see "unoriginal PA20/22 question" thread).

I can easily identify my "now" mission and the best guess of my "future" mission but what airplane to attain isn't the intent of this thread but the process of purchasing one and the tips suggestions yada yada yada is my focus here.

Searching, inspections, to finance or not, insurance, having a hangar/tiedown set up before hand, how much cheddar to have for "just in case" stuff? etc... We're talking C170/172, PA20/22 but not limited to type pedigree.

The above line shows my child like experience to this process I'm sure but I'm all ears (or eyes i suppose). Lets Hear it!

Have a thorough pre-buy inspection done by someone who has experience with the model you are looking at, make sure it's not the same person who has been doing the previous owners inspections.

Do a title search through Aerospace Reports or order the FAA CD on the plane using the N#.

Get an Insurance quote before you purchase. Some models have insurance premiums that can seriously up the costs.

Pay cash if at all possible. Airplanes are not buy and forget, you'll be spending on a regular basis for fuel, maintenance and upgrades.Having a payment on top of all that can really hurt.

Forget pre-buy inspections. They’re worthless.

Only an annual inspection for certified aircraft or a condition inspection for experimental aircraft will allow you to find out what you really have.

Taking someone familiar with the make/model to decide if it’s worth the investment to do the inspection is beneficial.

It’s a matter of identifying any red flags that make the aircraft a non-candidate for your purchase.

Some red flags are worse than others and combined with other factors (price, location, etc...) could require your search to continue.

Buy the nicest plane you can afford. The cost of actually buying the plane is only one facet of the costs involved with aircraft ownership.

Aryana wrote:Forget pre-buy inspections. They’re worthless.

Only an annual inspection for certified aircraft or a condition inspection for experimental aircraft will allow you to find out what you really have.

To clarify for the new guy, don’t not get a pre-buy - he’s saying to get a pre-buy done on the annual inspection checklist. If you buy the plane, your inspection you paid for should be signed off as an annual.

If you don’t buy the plane after that, no annual sign off and you’re still money ahead.

I think there are certain conditions where a pre-buy isn’t required though. I didn’t get one, but I knew the man who built the plane and I knew his attention to detail, morals and ethics. He told me it was good, I agreed that it was and bought the plane. These situations may not be as common these days but they still exist.

There is no such thing as a pre-buy inspection.

We’ve had more than 60 airframes come and go in my family, and I’ve lost track how many times airworthiness issues are identified during an annual inspection, and missed by all the other buyers/helpers/experts/and even the seller on an aircraft for sale.

But rolling the dice can work sometimes. Do whatever feels comfortable for you. Make sure it’s really cheap if you don’t know exactly what you’re getting.

Some airplanes can be had for free and you still paid too much LOL.

Aryana wrote:There is no such thing as a pre-buy inspection.

We’ve had more than 60 airframes come and go in my family, and I’ve lost track how many times airworthiness issues are identified during an annual inspection, and missed by all the other buyers/helpers/experts/and even the seller on an aircraft for sale.

But rolling the dice can work sometimes. Do whatever feels comfortable for you. Make sure it’s really cheap if you don’t know exactly what you’re getting.

Some airplanes can be had for free and you still paid too much LOL.

My apologies, I shouldn’t have assumed I knew what you meant!

Buy local.
Don't get suckered by pretty paint jobs.
Don't borrow money if you don't absolutely have to.
Hangars pretty much pay for themselves if you can do most of your own work with a IA sign-off.
Forget airplanes and go buy a Jeep instead.

Hammer wrote:Forget airplanes and go buy a Jeep instead.

LOL!!!

Have your IA look at the plane and paperwork before you make the purchase. Ultimately he is the one that can make aircraft ownership a fun learning experience or a nightmare on runway 13! If you don't have one, find one! My .02

Thanks for starting this thread . We are in the EXACT same position . I also don't know what plane I will end up with

Aryana wrote:Forget pre-buy inspections. They’re worthless.

Only an annual inspection for certified aircraft or a condition inspection for experimental aircraft will allow you to find out what you really have.

Taking someone familiar with the make/model to decide if it’s worth the investment to do the inspection is beneficial.

It’s a matter of identifying any red flags that make the aircraft a non-candidate for your purchase.

Some red flags are worse than others and combined with other factors (price, location, etc...) could require your search to continue.

Buy the nicest plane you can afford. The cost of actually buying the plane is only one facet of the costs involved with aircraft ownership.

An annual inspection will catch airworthiness issues. A pre-buy will help determine the value of the aircraft to include non-airworthiness issues. An aircraft can pass an honest annual inspection and still be a piece of crap.
To determine the value and expected costs of an aircraft, BOTH need to be done.

I got lucky and found a plane to buy local as other has mentioned. I knew the owner and how it had been maintained, so that helped. Even then, I still had a heck of a first annual. So I guess I still had more questions to ask that I didn’t.

But you can’t always find what you want close by, unfortunately. First plane is definitely a learning experience!

Bagarre wrote:

Aryana wrote:Forget pre-buy inspections. They’re worthless.

Only an annual inspection for certified aircraft or a condition inspection for experimental aircraft will allow you to find out what you really have.

Taking someone familiar with the make/model to decide if it’s worth the investment to do the inspection is beneficial.

It’s a matter of identifying any red flags that make the aircraft a non-candidate for your purchase.

Some red flags are worse than others and combined with other factors (price, location, etc...) could require your search to continue.

Buy the nicest plane you can afford. The cost of actually buying the plane is only one facet of the costs involved with aircraft ownership.

An annual inspection will catch airworthiness issues. A pre-buy will help determine the value of the aircraft to include non-airworthiness issues. An aircraft can pass an honest annual inspection and still be a piece of crap.
To determine the value and expected costs of an aircraft, BOTH need to be done.

What’s a pre buy inspection exactly? And how does it determine the value of an aircraft? Is it conducted by a licensed mechanic? Who is qualified to do it? What standards does it conform to in order to be able to determine the value of any aircraft you want to purchase?

I counted last night...68 airplanes in 37 years.

We’ve lost count of how many people over the years we’ve had to break bad news to on their aircraft that didn’t have a proper annual inspection before they bought it.

If you’re committed to a full restoration no matter what like you’ve done with your 170, David, then an annual inspection before purchase won’t matter as much since you’re going to hemorrhage money anyways.

Renting might be the best option for folks that just want to fly. Buying an airplane, especially an old one, requires a methodical investment of time, resource, and money.

There’s no free lunch, sorry. A made up “pre-buy” inspection isn’t worth anything.

I guess it fits into the thread topic as a purchasing “trick”!

Aryana wrote:

Bagarre wrote:

Aryana wrote:Forget pre-buy inspections. They’re worthless.

Only an annual inspection for certified aircraft or a condition inspection for experimental aircraft will allow you to find out what you really have.

Taking someone familiar with the make/model to decide if it’s worth the investment to do the inspection is beneficial.

It’s a matter of identifying any red flags that make the aircraft a non-candidate for your purchase.

Some red flags are worse than others and combined with other factors (price, location, etc...) could require your search to continue.

Buy the nicest plane you can afford. The cost of actually buying the plane is only one facet of the costs involved with aircraft ownership.

An annual inspection will catch airworthiness issues. A pre-buy will help determine the value of the aircraft to include non-airworthiness issues. An aircraft can pass an honest annual inspection and still be a piece of crap.
To determine the value and expected costs of an aircraft, BOTH need to be done.

What’s a pre buy inspection exactly? And how does it determine the value of an aircraft? Is it conducted by a licensed mechanic? Who is qualified to do it? What standards does it conform to in order to be able to determine the value of any aircraft you want to purchase?

I counted last night...68 airplanes in 37 years.

We’ve lost count of how many people over the years we’ve had to break bad news to on their aircraft that didn’t have a proper annual inspection before they bought it.

If you’re committed to a full restoration no matter what like you’ve done with your 170, David, then an annual inspection before purchase won’t matter as much since you’re going to hemorrhage money anyways.

Renting might be the best option for folks that just want to fly. Buying an airplane, especially an old one, requires a methodical investment of time, resource, and money.

There’s no free lunch, sorry. A made up “pre-buy” inspection isn’t worth anything.

I guess it fits into the thread topic as a purchasing “trick”!

Seat rails:
Annual - Pass .
Pre Buy - Yeah, they pass but in a few years will probably need replacing, budget that in.
Transponder:
Annual - Pass
Pre Buy - It works but it's a Narco. Pars are hard to find and no one fixes these anymore. Plus, there is no good path to ADSB - Consider this in the price.
Brakes:
Annual - Pass
Prebuy - You've got pretty big tires on there for single pucks. More than likely, you'll want to replace the brakes.

Engine
Annual - Check compression, change oil, look for leaks, verify ADs...pass
PreBuy - That's an orphaned engine and overhauling it will be a bitch. It's on it's second overhaul with 3,700 hours total time and 1,700 on this overhaul and the crank is already .010 under on the mains. When this things goes for it's next overhaul, it's gonna break the bank.

Wings
Anual - Pass
Prebuy - Had a splice in the spar three years ago from a nasty ground loop. The repair looks fine and the paperwork is in order but a repair like this should pull the asking price down.


So, what good is an annual in any of those cases? It passes the annual with flying colors but is on the edge of needing things replaced which should affect the value.

Aryana wrote:What’s a pre buy inspection exactly? And how does it determine the value of an aircraft? Is it conducted by a licensed mechanic? Who is qualified to do it? What standards does it conform to in order to be able to determine the value of any aircraft you want to purchase?

I don't see the big hick-up here. A pre buy inspection is taking the airplane you're thinking of buying to someone who knows a lot more about airplanes than you do, in order to get their opinion on condition and value. It's not a guarantee of value or lack of problems, but neither is an annual inspection. It's just a relatively inexpensive tool to help the less informed make a purchasing decision. Determining airplane value isn't an exact science, but it's not voodoo, either. Airplane brokers and insurance companies manage to do it with some regularity.

Whether a non-annual inspection prior to purchase is a good idea is debatable. FWIW, I bought both my airplanes with nothing but a pre buy inspection, if that. I talked to a IA familiar with the first airplane, and a non-mechanic who knew a lot more about airplanes than I did looked over the second. With the second aircraft I got the opinion of a broker, and he said I was probably paying top dollar, but since I was buying a highly modified airplane, that's not uncommon. Both airplanes needed routine maintenance and repair during their service...duh!

There are no guarantees when you buy a piece of equipment, much less a 50~70 year-old piece of equipment. But getting the input of someone who knows more about them than you do is just common sense.

The reason people suggest a full annual is because it's nearly always more comprehensive than a "pre-buy." It at least has some definition to what's inspected. A "pre-buy" is a broad term that means different things to different people. Maybe your "pre-buy" is an annual inspection.

If an airplane passes its annual, at least it's airworthy and you can fly it for a year without getting stuck with a huge remediation bill.

An annual also includes a review of the regulatory aspect-- ADs complied with?

The advice to take someone who's very experienced in type is good-- you need someone who knows what gotchas to look for. It's too easy for the layman to get hung up on paint and cylinder compressions, both useless measures of a good airplane. The worst case scenario is hidden corrosion that grounds the airplane and requires invasive procedures to replace affected structure.

There are other aspects to purchasing besides just the inspection, too:

1. What questions to ask over the phone to save yourself unnecessary and fruitless travel?
2. How to approach the deal when the aircraft is in high demand? Ask some Skywagon hopefuls the heartbreak they've had from dawdling.
3. How to draft a purchase agreement and exchange payment with low risk?
4. Other due diligence, like checking the title for liens.

Most in aviation are good, honest people you could do a handshake deal with. But the baddies are out there too, maybe not out to defraud you, but not entirely honest and forthcoming.

I'd imagine AOPA has some good buying tips and resources.

It I was buying a 170 I wouldn’t hesitate to take Bagarre along.

You know more about 170’s than most licensed mechanics David!

Aryana wrote:It I was buying a 170 I wouldn’t hesitate to take Bagarre along.

You know more about 170’s than most licensed mechanics David!

I dont think either of us are saying anything different.
You want your IA to annual the plane so there are no gotchas at next annual and someone you trust has told you so.
BUT you also want someone who really knows the type of plane and equipment and related costs to help you determine the value of the aircraft as well as possible future expenses.

Both are needed and neither can be excluded.
For a sequence, I think the pre-buy should come first to determine value and then the purchase being contingent on passing an annual by my IA.

Maybe we discount the pre-buy because experience allows us to do it ourselves? dunno.

Oh, and if you take me to look at a 170, you're doomed. I'll just look at everything that's wrong with it and say "you can fix that, no problem"

1. What questions to ask over the phone to save yourself unnecessary and fruitless travel?

Can you expand ?
This is getting good. Maybe a sticky ?

First thing I would do is find a mechanic who will be willing to maintain it for you to at least your standards. That requires more communications than just saying you need a prebuy or an annual. All IA's should be able to make sure it is legally airworthy, not all may have your high standards, some may have standards higher than you are willing to pay for. Spend some time so you both understand what the other is looking for. Do you want an airplane that is just legally airworthy or are you looking for one that is and will be in good condition in 5 years without spending money on things that come along. We all have heard the saying "pay me now or pay me later", a lot of truth in that. It really depends on how much you are willing to pay. Talking to buddies of mine who are also IA's it is interesting how owners are often willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on engine upgrades but complain about $50 to replace a flexible fuel line that is more than 20 years old (that the manufacturer recommends replacing at 10 years). Good luck with the hunt, remember that risk is involved with aircraft ownership, just like in the ownership of any used mechanical device.

Tim