ASW wrote:....... Supercub XXX 5 miles out, landing 12. ........

One of my pet peeves: "5 miles out"... what direction? There's 360 different places (degrees on compass) you could be. How about including rough compass direction, as in "5 miles northwest". Some people suggest stating DBA: distance bearing & altitude. I don't usually call my altitude if I'm at or near pattern altitude, but direction is critical. Some of the calls I hear around the pacific northwest are priceless -- at Oak Harbor WA, a guy recently called "3 miles out,over the water". There's water around the airport in three out of four directions... how about narrowing it down?
Color and type: excellent idea, I use that all the time except when dealing with ATC. Lots easier to see if you're following a "red pacer" than a "piper 3-8-delta". I've had people get on my case on the radio about "what's your tail number?"-- I tell them if they're close enough to read my tailnumber in flight, they should be taking evasive action instead of talking on the radio.

Eric

hotrod150 wrote: I've had people get on my case on the radio about "what's your tail number?"-- I tell them if they're close enough to read my tailnumber in flight, they should be taking evasive action instead of talking on the radio.

Haha...I like it! I'm going to stash that one in my bag of responses. I can never recall the other aircraft's N# who's calling in anyway. I often reply with something along the lines of "Skyhawk inbound from SW, say altitude."

I've often thought about how to better describe my plane in the air.

"White and yellow Cessna?" The 170 had no name like "Skyhawk" and using "one-seventy" seems ambiguously like an N#.

"Cessna taildragger?"

"Roundtail Cessna?"

Sorry, you're right, my bad. I tried to keep my reply simple, but it was a little too simple. "Airport name, SC XXX, 5 miles south, inbound for landing 12, airport name" is what I should have said.

ASW.

I think a bunch of valid points have been made. I see it both ways. The case for saying "any traffic please advise" comes from not necessarily having the luxury of monitoring whatever the destination's airport frequency might be for long enough to hear what is going on. Picture a corporate jet on a typical flight. Most of the time, we are able to dual monitor frequencies and have a very good idea of whose around when we are approaching our destination airport. We also have TCAS which helps a lot. However, there are instances which sometimes leave us behind where we would like to be in terms of monitoring traffic. For instance, we go to Thermal, CA fairly regularly. We are on an IFR flight plan and talking to LA Center and SOCAL approach during our descent. Those frequencies are extremely busy. Our approach frequency has to be our priority. Even when we are dual monitoring frequencies, it is with little assurance the we have heard every call from our destination airport. It is tough to get a word in edgewise. Once we pick up the airport visually, cancel IFR, and finally transfer over to the arrival airport's frequency, it is nice to have one more check on traffic. It is especially nice since we are usually faster than other traffic.

One shoe does not fit all.

ASW wrote: "Airport name, SC XXX, 5 miles south, inbound for landing 12, airport name" is what I should have said.

ASW.

Gald you got that fixed with the airport name at the beginning and the END

I flew out of Logan UT for a short time. There is a fair ammount of training that goes on there and there are or were a number of bizjets that flew out of there. The guys flying the bizjets would announce "20 mile final for 35" and they would give reports every 5 or so miles. It always seemed to work pretty good as long as the guys in the pattern didn't mind doing a 360 or something to let the jet land.

I have moved Zane up onto the list of people and blessings I give thanks for, because of this site. It is a lot easier to ask you guys then look it up in the FAR book.

I learn a lot from this site, and I am both a bad speller and even worst at typing, so I feel like the “scourge of the earth” now.

I confess that I had fallen into the “..if any traffic please respond” crowd after hearing other folks doing it and getting responses. Pryor to joining that group, I was one who sometimes would not respond after hearing a position report. I would just go on my merry way. But when I used that, I seemed to get more responses then when I merely state a position, but that is hard to prove? It is nice to know where other planes are.

Anyway, now that I am conscious of what I say, I have another Emily Post question for you all. After a controller tells you, that you are free to switch frequencies, what do you say if anything? I always said “switching”, then flipped. Is that wrong too?

patrol guy wrote:Anyway, now that I am conscious of what I say, I have another Emily Post question for you all. After a controller tells you, that you are free to switch frequencies, what do you say if anything? I always said “switching”, then flipped. Is that wrong too?

"Thank you. Good day!"

we're gone....bye bye

Be short, specific, and to the point. Altitude, distance and bearing from the airfield are very helpful. What are your intentions and what you are are also very helpful...Citation, Citabria, Cirrus, or Cardinal...they all mean something to the other traffic...if I have a Citation number two to land and I'm number one to land, it makes me a little nervous if I don't know where he is...his pattern is a lot different than mine.
Once I had some twin traffic called a 5 mile final as I was turning base...he then called and wanted to know where I was...I told him to look straight in front because I was right in front of him...he was approaching on a right base. I had been calling all of my positions since 15 miles out. Once on the ground I let him know about it face-to-face.
I know at some busy airports the traffic on the radio can get heavy and it takes a lot of looking outside the plane, but when pilots don't communicate at all, it can get pretty hairy! I think "any traffic please advise" can be very helpful...even at low use airports.
HC

I agree with announcing which airport at the beginning and end of the call. Even in the mountains here I'll hear calls for airports 60 miles away. It's good to know at which airport they are on short final! But the thing that bugs me the most, even more than the "any traffic please advise" is the guy who says, "Uhhh,..... Spanish Fork Airport......this is Cessna, Uh......64Lima..................inbound from the north, uh, I mean south..............for landing........uh,.......12.....make that 30..........uh,........full, uh, stop............"
I could have done three touch and goes in the time it takes for him to make one call! Now, I don't need anyone to talk as fast as the controllers in LAX, but know what you're going to say before you key the mic! I learned to fly from an old crop duster at an uncontrolled airport and he taught me to only use the radio when you need it, say what you need to say and then get off. I probably announce my position around the airport more than he does, but I try to keep it short and understandable.

amacbean wrote: "Uhhh,..... Spanish Fork Airport......this is Cessna, Uh......64Lima..................inbound from the north, uh, I mean south..............for landing........uh,.......12.....make that 30..........uh,........full, uh, stop............"

I'm confused now (thats odd!). I thought they taught the SF cowboys to talk that way at because they had one hand on the mike and the other on a set of pliers....holding the plane together.

Hey! We don't use pliers to hold the plane together - that's what the 200 mph duct tape is for! Also, the guy in my example wasn't a Spanish Farker so I didn't write in the necessary drawl. He was just slow, eh?

Okay, here's my pet peeve. When an inbound makes a call reporting "....over Point Hudson" or "....over the bend in the river", or ".....over Grandma Beth's house", you get the picture. I hear this kind of reporting a lot and if I'm coming into an unfamiliar strip I probably have no idea where they are talking about. Its okay if you report over the bend in the river as long as you include "3 miles NE" with it, or whatever. Pilots that are coming into their home base too often develope this habit of using only geographical points of reference to announce their position which may work fine for all the other pilots that are based there, but what about the guy coming from out of state on a cross country for the first time? My basics for inbound announcing are type, distance and compass direction, altitude, and what my intentions are for the pattern entry. Depending on where I am I may also include "over the river, or crossing shoreline" but thats only to supplement the basics.

amacbean wrote:, "Uhhh,..... Spanish Fork Airport......this is Cessna, Uh......64Lima..................inbound from the north, uh, I mean south..............for landing........uh,.......12.....make that 30..........uh,........full, uh, stop............"

I do my best to be quick on the radio but when I get busy or nervous the first thing to go is my radio skills...not that I really have any. There are times that a radio call takes a long time because my brain and mouth quit communicating...I guess I could pretend I'm NORDO Shortly I'll be moving to a towered field and I'll be forced to use my radio all the time..not really looking forward to it but it will be a good thing.

I gotta agree with whynotfly on his point. People in Nampa use places like the "cheese factory"...like that really helps those that know nothing about the area. In the mountains it is a different deal...sorta.

Whynot,

There are many places where ATC WANTS you to use local landmarks to keep the chatter down on the frequency and improve situational awareness. Grand Forks, for example, has "Carpet" (Wievoda Carpet Girl Warehouse, with the huge word carpet on the roof), "Puddle", "Truckstop", etc as local waypoints.

Fairbanks, my previous hangout, also has a number of visual waypoints.

Go to Anchorage and you NEED to know the visual waypoints, for that is FAR 93 airspace, and violations of that are not pretty.

BUT, all these "official" waypoints are shown on charts, complete with names.

I agree with you, though, that if you are from out of town, it can be pretty ridiculous trying to figure out the "jargon".

I recall coming into ANC from the south right after the 93 airspace was established. I was based in Kodiak, and went to ANC once a month or so, so not real familiar with local landmarks.

The weather had been down for some time, in low IFR. It finally started to lift from the south, so I lit out in a Cub on floats, from Kenai. As I reached Point Possession, I called the Approach Controller for that sector and told him I had the ATIS, my location and I was enroute to Lake Hood.

His response was "Cub 720, roger, proceed to the Peanut Farm, plan a west for Lake Hood"


First thing went through my head was "They're raising peanuts in Anchorage??" I called him back and said "Not familiar with the Peanut Farm" He then asked if I knew where International Airport Road was. I responded in the affirmative. He then asked if I knew where the New I don'tSeward Highway is. I responded again in the affirmative. He keyed up his mic and said "Okay, the Peanut Farm is a bar at the intersection of the Seward Highway and International airport Road......wait a minute, Do you know where Lake Hood is?" To which I reseponded "Affirmative" "Roger, proceed direct Lake Hood, You're the only one out there today anyway--Contact Hood Tower on 118.xx"

MTV

I like hearing the call, it gets my attention. UND seems to use it, and it works well. Sometimes they don't seem to be speaking in english, so anything helps. Some of the Air China guys they are training are a little tough to understand, so a simple reply will usually get you a radio call from the instructor, clearing up any confusion on my part.

UND is NOT supposed to be using that call any more. They were one of the worst perpetrators of switching frequencies and IMMEDIATELY transmitting that call. Just listening for a minute or two works just as well, and doesn't blast half a dozen other airports in the area with that call.

I tell my students who comment on the Chinese students that their English is a lot better than my Chinese, and they are trying...
MTV

MTV, I was in the air for a while today and I noticed that I didn't hear the call. When did they quit with it?

I don't have a problem with the Chinese students, I figure they are here to learn how to fly, not work on their speech. Every single time I have had a question as to where they are/what they are doing, the instructor speaks up and takes over the radio.

I can't imagine the added confusion of learning a geographical area while learning to fly, my hat is off to them

I attended an FAA safety seminar last night.The subject was exactly what is being discussed here.Situational awareness,listening to the radio calls,accurately and concisely reporting positions and intentions and not tying up frequencies with useless info."Any traffic please advise" was brought up and is a definite no as far as the FAA is concerned.Lots of accidents from these things.Also lots of problems from atc screwing up.
The speaker was an old timer.Runway and airport safety are his specialty.I asked him about landing on the grass at a towered airport if conditions made the designated paved runway less desirable.He said the tower can't legally give permission if the grass is not an approved landing area.He then added "It's your call just get it down and justify it after".

Bill

patrol guy wrote:...... After a controller tells you, that you are free to switch frequencies, what do you say if anything? I always said “switching”, then flipped. Is that wrong too?

I usually say "thanks for the help", followed by my tailnumber. Saying your tailnumber seems to be a good way of acknowledging what they told you, when it doesn't really deserve a full readback. When they give me something important (an altitude restriction or a vector), I read it back. Minor stuff, I reply with the tailnumber.

Eric