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Jeredp wrote:There was some talk on another thread about refueling setups, here is what I came up with. I started with a trailer from craiglist. I traded for the fuel tank, steam cleaned and inspected it. The bottom of the tank has 4 ports. I put brass plugs in three of them, then welded and aluminum plug into one of the holes that had damaged threads. I welded a 2 inch NPT bung into the top of the tank to accept the pump. The tool box on the front houses a group 27 battery, an isolator switch, solar panel connection, and room for some oil and rags, and misc. The positive and negative on the pump are wired to the battery and isolator with an inline fuse that came with the pump. The pump has a ground point that I ties to the static reel and the trailer frame. I also plan to add a drag chain or static wik to drag the ground and dissipate any static build-up. I wanted the trailer to be a stand alone system so I bought the 2.5w solar charger/maintainer to put on top of the toolbox, instead of charging off of my truck. We'll see how this works, I've never used any solar products, but after all of CourierGuy's posts, I had to to do it . Yesterday I pressurized the tank and leak checked it, so I should be ready for a hundred gallons of $2.89/gal ethanol free mogas! I've been paying $6.58/gal for 100ll so it shouldn't take long to pay for itself.


Here is my nearly finished product:
4x8 utility trailer from Craigslist-$85
105 gallon Freightliner Saddle Tank-Traded for an air hammer
GPI MS150 12V pump-$409.99
Goldenrod Waterblock 10 Micron filter-$49.99
Tool Box-Freebie from my dad(it's the seat box from an old Kenworth)
Plastic Batter box-$11.99
Battery Isolator-$11.99
2.5 Watt Solar Charger/Maintainer-$38.95
Static Reel-$49.00 from Ebay
Tank bung from Boyd welding-$11.95
Misc. Plugs from McMaster-$20.00

I think I got the same pump only 110v. I haven't figured out if I've grounded everything right yet while refueling. If I'm plugged into the wall, I can't see grounding to the plane from the shuttle but I do it anyway. Fug! picture posting on here is frustrating, I'll do a vid.



This is a fungicide shuttle that I get for free from my ag pilot friend. It holds 275 gallons. I think i'm about $400 for pump and meter, maybe $500. I can run it off of an inverter but it usually sits under the passenger wing in my hangar. If I fill the right tank, it balances out fairly quick and I put more in. If I need full fuel (84 gallons), I move it with the skid steer. It hauls nicely on my snowmobile trailer or the back of my pickup.

Glidergeek wrote:

Jeredp wrote:

FARMAULE wrote:I considered using a small enclosed trailer. I wasn't sure how legal my setup would be going down the main road, I thought hiding the tank may be a benefit. At the end of the day I was more concerned with the buildup of fumes so I ended up with the open trailer. I think I may put some human waste stickers or biohazard stickers on the tank. That should keep the D.O.T. away. Right now I just keep a Batt tender JR hooked to it. I like the idea of solar for sure. When I get home next month I will definitely make a purchase.Thanks for all of the info.

I'm not sure how it is in other states but in WA, under 119 gal for personal use is totaly legal on the road. Anything over requires hazmat cdl, and placards. Another note regarding legal, I called GPI when I purchased the pump to ask them the difference between their aviation pump and the one I got. Basicly, it's paperwork. GPI says their aviation model is FAA approved and there is no difference physicaly in the two pumps.

Pick this one apart: from http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/ti ... tion/383.5
has to do with Tanker Endorsement to a CDL

"Tank vehicle means any "commercial motor vehicle" that is designed to transport any liquid or gaseous materials within a tank or tanks having an individual rated capacity of more than 119 gallons and an aggregate rated capacity of 1,000 gallons or more that is either permanently or temporarily attached to the vehicle or the chassis. A commercial motor vehicle transporting an empty storage container tank, not designed for transportation, with a rated capacity of 1,000 gallons or more that is temporarily attached to a flatbed trailer is not considered a tank vehicle".

So if you transport with your car you might not fall into this. But if you transport with your pick up you might.

The way I read this, I'm under the gallon requirement so I'm good. It's temporarily attached to a trailer so I'm good. It's not for commercial use, so I'm good. I don't see where it matters if I pull it with a car or a pickup.

hotrod180 wrote:

Jeredp wrote: I'm not sure how it is in other states but in WA, under 119 gal for personal use is totaly legal on the road. Anything over requires hazmat cdl, and placards. ....

If you're on the west side around Puget Sound, the state ferries have some rules about gas hauling. Once years ago, they refused to let me on with three 5 gallon cans in the back of my pickup.

I'm lucky to have a good source of e-zero gas at a Cenex Co-op close to the airport, so hauling mogas in 5 gallon cans works well for me. Not able to buy a shitload when the price is really low, but I'm not gonna get stuck with a bunch of expensive gas when the prices drop either.

I'm fortunate to live on the dry, fruitful, conservative side of the state! I have about a 8 mile drive to the ethanol free gas station.

Most states consider a pickup a commercial motor truck. But I think ur good.

I have my bulk tank inside a tin shed, lots of airflow still and I just like the idea of keeping the sun off it, it also keeps it out of view of prying eyes You trailer guys could just have some tin side walls, just enough to not waste the time of the powers that be on messing with you, when they could be chasing real criminals.

I carried my 300 G tank in the back of the crane once last year, probably not a good idea as per the DOT bs. The rest of the times I've used the one ton, next time I'll use the one ton AND throw a tarp over it, can't hurt to keep it out of view on general principles.

Denali: Good find on All Electronics Good stuff there. to further illustrate the bigger is cheaper thing in PV prices, I sell locally 90 watt multi's for 160.00, so $1.78 per watt. All E sells the 20 watt multi's for 94.00, so 4.70 per watt. Again locally, I sell 255 watter's for 320.00, so $1.25 per watt. So going a bit bigger is much cheaper per watt, but more money overall I guess.

Nizina: Efficiency is one thing, bang for the buck is where the rubber meets the road, and for me and my suppliers multi crys. seems to be the clear winner. I look for a 20 or 25 year factory warranty (in other words any name brand panel, as opposed to Harbor Freight type junk) and then the best pricing per watt. Whether they are 14.8 as opposed to 15.2 % efficient is of little concern. Also frankly, I trust my long time suppliers, and what they buy a boatload of (or several containers anyway) is what I buy from them as I can't beat the pricing elsewhere, and it's always multi crys. I don't keep a real close eye on the research on new panels, until I can get them at a lesser price PER WATT, and my suppliers have them in stock and ready to ship, it's all pie in the sky, make sense?

Idaho mo gas fuel tax rebate: I got reamed out by the state tax commission two years ago, the full anal exam. What started out as an examination of my plane gas turned into an exam of the crane diesel receipts. Like a dumb ass I only had credit card receipts, not the actual paper slip that comes out of the frigging pump, THAT'S what they want to see I learned my lesson, it seems to be better to keep a low profile with those folks! So, I don't mess with it anymore, ain't right but they have the power to make it more hassle then it's worth. I did it for several years, like flyer is doing it (more power to ya) but once audited I was told there was more paperwork involved (quarterly forms, blah blah blah) then I wanted or needed to mess with.

Pic below is 4 of the 3060 watt arrays, all mounted on one 26" dia. pipe, so 12,240 watts @ 378 volts VDC, the grid tie inverter converts it to 240 VAC, by far the biggest I've done yet on one pole. Like the guy with a hammer thinking every problems needs a nail, my solar jobs somehow seem to need a crane. For a guy who owns the Tesla I got to drive a couple weeks ago

flyer wrote: For those of you that buy mogas in Idaho and use it in your plane, the state of Idaho will reimburse you 15 cents per gallon. I do it every year and it works very well. flyer

Washington has a program like this. How ours works is that they refund you the road tax, which is a fixed amount per gallon, but withhold aviation fuel tax (a fixed amount per gallon, just like road tax) as well as sales tax which in my county is 9%. You have to fill out a form and mail it in along with the fuel receipts, I used to do it every three months.

When mogas prices go up, at some point the withholding exceeds the refund. I have a letter from the state in my files saying that when mogas price is above $3.78, there's no refund. It's well below that now, but I decided that getting back anywhere from $10 to $25 per quarter wasn't worth the hassle. But it would be nice if the tax money for my airplane mogas was going to aviation and not roads.

Nosedragger wrote:...I haven't figured out if I've grounded everything right yet while refueling. If I'm plugged into the wall, I can't see grounding to the plane from the shuttle but I do it anyway...

Ground to the airplane because there may be a potential between the airplane and ground that may cause a spark when fueling or bringing the hose to the fuel tank. Fuel flowing may also result in a growing voltage potential. Trust you are using internally grounded fueling hose as well???

May I suggest that you add your fueling equipment on to your annual inspection. Especially check wiring. Years ago, at the hospital I work at, a couple times per year we'd have someone getting shocked on portable kitchen equipment. Much better after institution of regular inspections of same.

Mark J

courierguy wrote:
Nizina: Efficiency is one thing, bang for the buck is where the rubber meets the road, and for me and my suppliers multi crys. seems to be the clear winner. I look for a 20 or 25 year factory warranty (in other words any name brand panel, as opposed to Harbor Freight type junk) and then the best pricing per watt. Whether they are 14.8 as opposed to 15.2 % efficient is of little concern. Also frankly, I trust my long time suppliers, and what they buy a boatload of (or several containers anyway) is what I buy from them as I can't beat the pricing elsewhere, and it's always multi crys. I don't keep a real close eye on the research on new panels, until I can get them at a lesser price PER WATT, and my suppliers have them in stock and ready to ship, it's all pie in the sky, make sense?

Courierguy

Makes sense. Thanks. I wouldn't quibble over the small differences in efficiency either. Suppliers up here seem sold on mono because they perform better when partially covered with snow and ice. I have no way of knowing, but thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Nizina

marcusofcotton wrote:

Nosedragger wrote:...I haven't figured out if I've grounded everything right yet while refueling. If I'm plugged into the wall, I can't see grounding to the plane from the shuttle but I do it anyway...

Ground to the airplane because there may be a potential between the airplane and ground that may cause a spark when fueling or bringing the hose to the fuel tank. Fuel flowing may also result in a growing voltage potential. Trust you are using internally grounded fueling hose as well???

May I suggest that you add your fueling equipment on to your annual inspection. Especially check wiring. Years ago, at the hospital I work at, a couple times per year we'd have someone getting shocked on portable kitchen equipment. Much better after institution of regular inspections of same.

Mark J

I do have the hose with the static line in it (or is it antistatic) Anyway, that's hard to follow. The tank is plastic, the cage is steel, the ladder I'm standing on is wood. What happens when I step from the ladder to the floor with the hose in my hand? It seems that the best place to have a ground would be the plane to the dirt and the pump to the dirt.

Nosedragger wrote:

marcusofcotton wrote:

Nosedragger wrote:...I haven't figured out if I've grounded everything right yet while refueling. If I'm plugged into the wall, I can't see grounding to the plane from the shuttle but I do it anyway...

Ground to the airplane because there may be a potential between the airplane and ground that may cause a spark when fueling or bringing the hose to the fuel tank. Fuel flowing may also result in a growing voltage potential. Trust you are using internally grounded fueling hose as well???

May I suggest that you add your fueling equipment on to your annual inspection. Especially check wiring. Years ago, at the hospital I work at, a couple times per year we'd have someone getting shocked on portable kitchen equipment. Much better after institution of regular inspections of same.

Mark J

I do have the hose with the static line in it (or is it antistatic) Anyway, that's hard to follow. The tank is plastic, the cage is steel, the ladder I'm standing on is wood. What happens when I step from the ladder to the floor with the hose in my hand? It seems that the best place to have a ground would be the plane to the dirt and the pump to the dirt.

I'm assuming the pump has a metal standpipe into the tank. I'd also bond the pump and the steel tank cage together. Dry dirt is not a good ground, that's why you want to ground (bond) the airplane to the pumping station. When making that connection, you are doing it at a point away from the fumes. You are trying to prevent a spark from occurring where the fumes may ignite.

I'd also hang a piece of cable into the tank, permanently bonded to the steel frame. May sound like a bit much, but these explosions do occasionally happen. Recently to one of our fellow pilots on the Supercub.org group (his was while fueling a boat).

I need a good vent, I should be feed a ground cable through that. Thanks for the tip.

I am just curious re the recommended shelf life for ethanol free as well as 10-15% ethanol containing MOGAS say for certain Rotaxes. No one plans on storing MOGAS long term, but sometimes things happen.

However, after say "X ?" months, at what point do you say no, and dump it into your zero turn mower or outboard motor where things are less critical ?

I am also assuming one would never consider adding stabilizers to stored MOGAS intended for aviation use.

Denali wrote:I am just curious re the recommended shelf life for ethanol free as well as 10-15% ethanol containing MOGAS say for certain Rotaxes. No one plans on storing MOGAS long term, but sometimes things happen.

However, after say "X ?" months, at what point do you say no, and dump it into your zero turn mower or outboard motor where things are less critical ?

I am also assuming one would never consider adding stabilizers to stored MOGAS intended for aviation use.

I just read somewhere that 3-4 months is the shelf life for non ethanol mogas and a year for 100ll

Nosedragger wrote:I need a good vent, I should be feed a ground cable through that. Thanks for the tip.

On my 110 ga tank and my 55 ga drum I use a brass one way check valve(s) spring loaded when you pump gas they ley air draw in when not they do not let vapors out.

Jeredp wrote:

Denali wrote:I am also assuming one would never consider adding stabilizers to stored MOGAS intended for aviation use.

I just read somewhere that 3-4 months is the shelf life for non ethanol mogas and a year for 100ll

So what is put into avgas that makes it more stable and why can't we add them to mogas ourselves?

Maybe it's what they don't add. Remember Chevron "techron" & all the other fuel company's secret additives? Maybe the gasoline is fine but the additives go bad.

I have stored and used mogas over a year with no problems. I would think fuel with ethanol would have more of a storage problem.

flyer

We had issues here with mogas burning down the 2 strokes in our sleds. We talked to the chemist at the local refinery and he said he wouldn't use pump gas in a 2 stroke if it was more than a week old. They use butane and all kind of "thanes" to get the octane rating up and those lights will permeate through a plastic gas can in no time. That being said, I run it in my plane, but I always leave the tanks less than 1/2 full when I am not going to be flying for a few weeks, and I top them off with fresh before I fly. As far as what brand was the best.. he laughed and said it all comes out of the same bulk tanks and just go buy it from what ever station has the cheapest gas because they will have the highest turn over and freshest gas at the pump.

Finaly got my tank polished and everything reassembled! Went and put 20 gallons of non ethanol in to test it and leak check, then filled the plane up! It was nice to pay $2.59/gal instead of $6.38 for avgas! My only change at this point will be a little longer hose.

Very cool trailer set up!

On another note. I just noticed today while filling up my SUV at a COSTCO gas station in Nampa, Idaho a sign on the pump saying (not exact quote)...... "State Fire code prohibits filling portable containers more than 6 gallons." I'm curious what this exactly means. Think the fuel tanks in the back of pickups are still ok?

58Skylane wrote:Very cool trailer set up!

On another note. I just noticed today while filling up my SUV at a COSTCO gas station in Nampa, Idaho a sign on the pump saying (not exact quote)...... "State Fire code prohibits filling portable containers more than 6 gallons." I'm curious what this exactly means. Think the fuel tanks in the back of pickups are still ok?

Not sure what that means. On my maiden voyage with my setup, two sheriffs passed me and just waived. The guy at bulk plant came out and complemnted me on my tank. He said guys have been bringing in 55 gallon drums and all sorts of little tanks for fueling airplanes.