Frankenflaps wrote:OK so do what do you all think about the airbag seatbelt system? Would you go for B.A.S. harnesses or the AMSAFE airbag belts?
https://www.amsafe.com/

If you can afford the airbags and the extra inspections they need then I'd go that route. I'd still go 4 point though.

Maybe everyone already knows this, but “points” refers to attachment points between the restraint and the airframe. The BAS is commonly called “4-point,” but it’s a 3-point, with one point behind the wearer’s head and one strap split to encircle his neck. Without a crotch strap, the BAS pull up on the lap belt in a crash, resulting in something called “submarining.” Watch YouTube videos and notice how many people wear a BAS restraint with the buckle at their navels.

If you have a BAS, just be sure to get the lap belt really, really tight.

Military belts use the same sorta thing with the two shoulder belts cam locked with the lap belt. But the lap belt is four inches wide and cinches up from the lower attach points so the pilot is not pulling away from his lap when cinching. They get a lot tighter that way and are very comfortable. The problem with civilian aircraft is the tight spaces where easy to get at lower cinch systems that allow pulling toward ones self would get jammed up against the sidewall insulation and seat. Almost all military specifications were big and obnoxious so any cluts could get a good grip. Belts that are not tight might as well not be worn. If the body moves an inch, it is gone. I got a little high on Parathion boll weevil killer poison one time in a CallAir Ag plane and tested the military belt system in a three rotation cartwheel on a forced landing. I was sure I levelled that wing (I was way behind). The Border Patrol guy a couple hundred feet away said, "he just turned into the ground." Even after a long day in the hot sun fixing the spray pump, I had the good sense to cinch in as tight as I could pull with both hands from lower left and then lower right on wide lap belt.

We decided on the BAS 4 point (or three point attachment with "4 point" restraint, regular buckles. Simplicity, familiarity, and no need to inspect yearly and replace every 7-10 years. I am trying to find seat headrests for my plane(ideas?). We will get helmets and I am fashioning neck braces (to use for more dangerous approaches, or easily put on in the event of an engine out) and will carry a couple of pillows to thrust in front of us just before impact. The rest is up to my flying (yikes) and God. I flew a few years ago with Pete Nelson for some backcountry training. He was great. He taught me 20 deg flaps in the canyons, proper turning, long final at 70mph and land at 60-65mph. My friend and instrument instructor (Dog is my co-pilot), who is an accomplished backcounty pilot, is trying to teach me to approach slower, just at the stall horn level, and land with a bit of power. I'm learning, but honestly, I am likely never going to fly into anything that's too challenging. So, BAS, helmet, neck brace

Frankenflaps wrote:OK so do what do you all think about the airbag seatbelt system? Would you go for B.A.S. harnesses or the AMSAFE airbag belts?
https://www.amsafe.com/

I am clearly biased toward the BAS harness system. A BAS harness system probably saved my life. In that circumstance (a tumbling arrival) I'm not sure the airbag would have inflated.

Your comment about a harness failing is a point well taken. I have no idea how AmSafe mounts their harness system in a Cessna. BAS has the best, really solid mounting system....MUCH more stout than the stock Cessna Harness system.

Check into cost of installation as well. Again, I'm not familiar with the AmSafe system, but I'm betting there's some installation cost.

For some reason, and I have no idea why, the Am Safe air bag belts haven't seemed to "take off" in sales. One would think that a really good safety device would be selling pretty well. That system has been around for many years, and you sure don't see many installed.

Comfort?? I dunno. But, BAS are great safety systems. I wouldn't install anything else in a Cessna.

MTV

Frankenflaps wrote:We decided on the BAS 4 point (or three point attachment with "4 point" restraint, regular buckles. Simplicity, familiarity, and no need to inspect yearly and replace every 7-10 years. I am trying to find seat headrests for my plane(ideas?). We will get helmets and I am fashioning neck braces (to use for more dangerous approaches, or easily put on in the event of an engine out) and will carry a couple of pillows to thrust in front of us just before impact. The rest is up to my flying (yikes) and God. I flew a few years ago with Pete Nelson for some backcountry training. He was great. He taught me 20 deg flaps in the canyons, proper turning, long final at 70mph and land at 60-65mph. My friend and instrument instructor (Dog is my co-pilot), who is an accomplished backcounty pilot, is trying to teach me to approach slower, just at the stall horn level, and land with a bit of power. I'm learning, but honestly, I am likely never going to fly into anything that's too challenging. So, BAS, helmet, neck brace

Did you do standard or utility buckles? Your mechanic will than you if you went with utility.

I went with standard buckles. Why will the mechanic prefer utility?

Frankenflaps wrote:I went with standard buckles. Why will the mechanic prefer utility?

The seats generally have “keepers” on the sides which the belts thread through. So, every time a seat has to be removed (more frequently than you might expect), the seat belt attach points at the floor have to be unbolted. That inboard one isn’t as much fun as it could be.

Just adds more time and fiddling to maintain.

I much prefer the “Standard” belt system, myself. I do owner assist maint. So guess who gets to do the belts?

And, a piece of advice: Trying to keep “things” handy that you can grab and place in front of you just prior to a crash does not send a great message to your passengers. Training is by far a better “tool” to ensure your safety and the safety of your family. It sounds like you’re not yet confident in your flying. It also sounds like you’re getting more training. Good for you….get all the training you can until you’re comfortable with your skills.

Competency from training and practice are the solutions you need, not a neck brace, helmet and handy pillow. FWIW

MTV

I agree with MTV on iterations, not repetition. Keep at what Dog is my co-pilot is teaching you so as to touchdown slower and softer closer and closer to the beginning of the landing zone or the numbers. When you arrive consistently slowly and softly on the numbers without having to chop power until touchdown, you know "you have arrived." That airspeed, well below Vso which is an out of ground effect number, will not scare old codgers like me nor will it tear things up if something goes bad. The rudder business Dog is teaching you will keep you going straight at airspeeds where the ailerons are not your friend. Going straight means the wings have to be level or stabilized in a bank into a crosswind. A coordinated turn, on short final, by definition will never line you up.

$10K for helmets for all seats? How often do most of our aircraft fly with full seats? Maybe a couple times a year is all. If that.

MTV made some good points for aeobatic pilots and others what fly aircraft in prximity to the ground or that have high stall speeds. Other than those situations do we REALLY need "...to provide maximum protection" with "a helmet ... be specifically designed and engineered" ... for high impact energies? I agree with having a helmet that will mitigate ..."head trauma most likely to be encountered."
I don't think a typical crash, even with side loads at 1.1 Vso in many GA aircraft flown in the back country warrant wearing a helmet in the $1500 price range. KE = .5 x (M x V**2) no matter what we fly (or drive).

Wearing a helmet in addition to airbags and harnesses in all passenger cars or trucks built since the late 70's just isn't a valuable comparison to wearing one in an aircraft. While some states in the US have fatal vehicle crashes that average 70 mph (61 Kts) or higher they tend to be rural. More urban states tend to have much lower speeds in fatal crashes. Unsurprising as it may be, a major factor in fatal car and truck crashes nationwide is impaired drivers.

Back to airplanes, 1.1 Vso in a lot of Cessnas with stock configurations is well under 50 kts (58 kts). A helmet, even a helmet rated for moderate to low speed impacts, PLUS BAS or better restraints is likely to yield a big boost in the survivable envelope of a crash. If an aircraft has static 3 point harnesses a helmet is definitely a boost to occupant crash survival. If we're still flying with lap belts only... well that speaks volumes about risk prefernces for passengers and pilot.

If it's important for an eglatarian image that a pilot NOT wear a helmet in an aircraft equipped with BAS or better restaints, then leave the helmet in the hangar. Helmets just add additional margins of protection. FWIW an acquaintance and his wife crashed his supercub a few years ago when his engine quit at 200' on takeoff from a back country strip. They survived, but with severe head injuries caused by side loads when the wing hit a skinny snag hhat he lacked the KE to avoid. After that event he told me even a bicycle helmet would have prevented the contusions and concussions they both received.

contactflying wrote:I agree with MTV on iterations, not repetition. Keep at what Dog is my co-pilot is teaching you so as to touchdown slower and softer closer and closer to the beginning of the landing zone or the numbers. When you arrive consistently slowly and softly on the numbers without having to chop power until touchdown, you know "you have arrived." That airspeed, well below Vso which is an out of ground effect number, will not scare old codgers like me nor will it tear things up if something goes bad. The rudder business Dog is teaching you will keep you going straight at airspeeds where the ailerons are not your friend. Going straight means the wings have to be level or stabilized in a bank into a crosswind. A coordinated turn, on short final, by definition will never line you up.

Jim - I agree 100% with Vso being useless. There is too much calibrated instrument error at the bottom of the ASI - it is not worth remembering Vso other than for a checkride. In my airplane and in Frank's 182 the start of the stall horn is about 15 mph higher than where it will break - it will be even lower in ground effect. It functions as a poor man's AOA. I teach most students to use a slightly faster approach speed just as margin of safety.

Pilot training is really the best bang for the buck regarding safety. Safety equipment is worthless without the proper skill to make a good safe forced landing or crash the airplane in the manner that will lead to minimal injuries. A low stall speed helps too. That's one of the reason I love my Sportsman cuff so much. It improved the glide ratio to 14:1 and lowered the stall speed by about 8-9 knots. I used to fly a Lancair IVP a long time ago. Terrible accident/fatality rate due to the dirty stall speed clocking in at 61 knots. I think 20% of the fleet has crashed with the vast majority of those involved being fatal. I believe the injury/fatality rate increases with the square of the impact speed.


Josh

Yes, Josh, some things are so simple like taking off fast and landing slow.

There was talk of outrageously priced helmets. How about this one? Very reasonably priced and would likely do the job.
Comtronics Pro-COM Flight Helmet
https://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/10348

That one looks good. I used a similar David Clark shell that cheaper headsets would also fit in at about that price. Good air around head with good webbing. It was very much like my old SPH-4 Mickey Mouse military helmet I used until the NMARNG quit replacing it because it stank of Parathion. They said the electronics had to have failed and I couldn't bring myself to damage it on purpose. SPH-4 had to have converter to civilian radio, but the Guard did that for me.

Hotrod180,
Love the helmet. I use the tinfoil approach often. Do you hear the voices in my head?

MTV,
I was rather thinking of pulling my wife in front of me just before the hit. At least one of us will survive. I have not discussed this with her yet.

Josh,
Dear Sensei, I shall learn the art of landing slow. Remember I did one at 60mph. Yes, the Vso is not in ground effect and I you have safely landed my plane at 50 mph, so I have work to do. I really think that the leading cuff on the 182-ps makes for a good STOL aircraft even without extra STOL equipment. First, the BAS, then heavy duty fork and bigger tires.

Frankenflaps wrote:There was talk of outrageously priced helmets. How about this one? Very reasonably priced and would likely do the job.
Comtronics Pro-COM Flight Helmet
https://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/10348

One of the things you find out really early in wearing helmets is that different people's heads are often very different shapes. And, it's not just having "sizing" to fit. You can have a "Medium" head, but it happens to be longer fore and aft compared to "Standard", whatever that is. Or wider, side to side.

The high end helmets use sizing pads to adapt to that. So, if you order one of these things, make sure they have a good return policy....you'll need to wear it for a good two hours or so to decide if it's going to give you hot spots, etc. It's not just an obvious instant discomfort.....a slight pressure point can cause intense pain after a while.

So, try it out for a period of time. Also, depending on what headsets you already own, I'd find out if they'll fit this, or if you have to buy their headsets....which I've never heard of. If you have to buy headsets as well, and these are good quality, you're looking at a lot of $$ there.

But, make sure you try a helmet out for a good period of time BEFORE you launch on a trip, for example.....

MTV

"OK so do what do you all think about the airbag seatbelt system? Would you go for B.A.S. harnesses or the AMSAFE airbag belts?"


3pt vs 4pt???

There is plenty of automotive data to prove the safety of 3pt restraints. If a 4pt system was proven to be superior, the automotive companies would have been litigated to make a change..........they have not.

I believe a 3pt restraint is superior the the BAS 4pt system. The reason is that BAS system has the two shoulder belts tie into the lower lap belt at the center forming a V4pt restraint. During an impact, the forces on the shoulder belts cause the lap belt to rise into the abdominal area of the body causing trauma. Many race car restraint systems have the same configuration except there is an additional belt added from the center down to the floor(specifically to keep the lap belt down around the hip bones and prevent it from rising up into the abdominal area). This is a 5pt system. I believe BAS uses the V4pt system for ease of egress but then again, race car have the same egress issue and do just fine. The only work around for the present V4pt system is to make sure the lap belt is as tight as possible(not a 100% solution). BAS could improve there system by making it an X4pt system where the shoulder belts tie to the sides to the lap belt thereby having the floor mounts take the shoulder forces(just like a 3pt system) and eliminating the center upward forces altogether............but then egress may be more of an issue with an X4pt. .

macica wrote:"OK so do what do you all think about the airbag seatbelt system? Would you go for B.A.S. harnesses or the AMSAFE airbag belts?"


3pt vs 4pt???

There is plenty of automotive data to prove the safety of 3pt restraints. If a 4pt system was proven to be superior, the automotive companies would have been litigated to make a change..........they have not.

I believe a 3pt restraint is superior the the BAS 4pt system. The reason is that BAS system has the two shoulder belts tie into the lower lap belt at the center forming a V4pt restraint. During an impact, the forces on the shoulder belts cause the lap belt to rise into the abdominal area of the body causing trauma. Many race car restraint systems have the same configuration except there is an additional belt added from the center down to the floor(specifically to keep the lap belt down around the hip bones and prevent it from rising up into the abdominal area). This is a 5pt system. I believe BAS uses the V4pt system for ease of egress but then again, race car have the same egress issue and do just fine. The only work around for the present V4pt system is to make sure the lap belt is as tight as possible(not a 100% solution). BAS could improve there system by making it an X4pt system where the shoulder belts tie to the sides to the lap belt thereby having the floor mounts take the shoulder forces(just like a 3pt system) and eliminating the center upward forces altogether............but then egress may be more of an issue with an X4pt. .

There is a very good NASA video that shows why 4 pt harnesses are better then 3 pt. They do a drop test to compare the seat belts. The problem with 3 point is that you twist out of them.

I'll begin with the people I personally know who have died in plane crashes and what we can learn from them.

1. A good friend of mine was killed while flying his Super D. He was nap of the earth flying, came over a ridge and right in front of him were wires from high line towers. The towers were off the ridge line so he didn't see them till it was too late. He dove under the wires and cleared them but caught a wing in an oak tree which flipped him over. He impacted the ground upside down and according the the corner died on impact from blunt force trauma to the head. He was taller than me, which means very tall.

Would a helmet have saved his life? Perhaps. We will never know as his body was burned up entirely in the fire, leaving only his skeleton. Since his plane was aerobatic as was he, he was wearing a competition aerobatic four-point harness.

ADSB would not have helped. Nor would air-bag seat belts. Looking at a sectional and identifying all "shown" wire locations would have. But don't trust sectionals, they are always out of date and never show everything. And most importantly scout areas for wires BEFORE flying low. I add danger wire waypoints to Foreflight and Garmin Pilot every time I encounter them. If you are around civilization, which means everywhere in the lower 48, there are wires of some kind. My friend did not have an inReach which made locating his crash site very difficult.

2. When I lived in Texas the hangar next to mine was owned by an aerial photography company. On one trip out to West Texas, after doing the photography job, the pilot decided to fly back nap of the earth. He hit wires killing himself and his photographer.

Again ADSB would not have helped, and in this case nor would have a helmet. Nor would have air bag seat belts. What would have helped was knowing where the wires were, as I outlined above.

3. A friend flying his Husky died flying into the side of a mountain, just short of the ridge, on a bright sunny clear day. Because of the circumstances there is no way to know for sure the reason why.

My best guess is he was flying nap of the earth and approached the ridge at a 90 degree angle. He encountered a down draft and couldn't out climb nor turn away before impacting terrain.

Neither ADSB nor a helmet nor air bag seat belts would have helped here. What would have helped is never approaching a ridge at a 90 degree angle. Approach at a 45 degree angle instead. That will allow a quick turn away if you encounter a down draft. Of course if you are flying into a head wind you should expect downdrafts at ridges.

4. A friend who was IFR rated flying a Bonanza, an aircraft he had almost no time in, was killed on takeoff under low IFR conditions. Lawn darted the plane just off the end of the runway.

Neither ADSB, nor a helmet, nor air bag seat belts would have helped. Again because of the circumstances we will never know how it happened.

My best guess is lack of currency, lack of training, allowing "get thereitis" to control his decisions, and immediately being zero zero off the ground are likely the cause. Essentially attempting to fly way beyond his abilities.

5. A friend flying his Evolution, high time hour, high time IFR, high time in the Evolution, high time in the flight levels, controlled flight into a forest in rolling hills, not near any airport, under IFR conditions.

Why was he this low in an aircraft designed for the flight levels, when he routinely flew at the flight levels, and especially in IFR conditions under which he was extremely experienced and capable? There is no way of knowing.

Neither ADSB, nor a helmet, nor air bag seat belts would have helped here.

What would have helped was flying well above the highest terrain.

***********

I'm only picking on ADSB because so many believe it's the cat's meow, and it isn't. It can be a huge distraction and can lead to a false sense of security- if you allow it. Treat it the same as your strobes. (You do fly with your strobes on all the time - right?) Just another tool. I don't have ADSB and I don't have a transponder so you'll only see me with your eyes. Luckily I'm the only person in the world flying like this so what are the odds that you'll ever be around me.

I'm not picking on helmets. Wear them if you want to, but if you are going to then you owe it to supply them to your passengers as well. Any excuse to not do that is just a sorry excuse.

Air bags on seat belts? Instead of that how about working on becoming a better pilot so you won't need air bags.

***********

Here are just a few thoughts on how to fly safely, especially in the back country.

1. Don't take passengers anywhere, or under any condition, that you haven't already done by yourself.

2. Practice short, precision landings EVERY TIME you land and every where you land. Precision means putting the wheels down (and keeping them down) within the length of your airplane at the spot on the landing area you've picked. You don't belong in the backcountry and certainly not off airport until you can do this 100% of the time. If you want to play off airport you should be able to do this in just a couple of feet.

3. If you are going to high DA areas, practice high DA ops at long runway airports in unobstructed areas first. Taos is a great place. Don't expect to learn high DA ops for the first time in the mountains under high DA conditions.

4. Understand what a one-way strip is and at what point it becomes a one-way. For every aircraft, and every pilot, and every condition this will be different. Once the strip becomes a one-way (could be 500 feet out could be a mile out) you are landing. Never try and go-around at a one way. It is far worse to crash at high-speed than low-speed. And if you've screwed the pooch and the crash sight is going to hurt (like rocks for instance) consider ground-looping the plane intentionally, or putting it on its back intentionally. Both will hurt a lot less than hitting rocks.

5. Don't try and save a bad landing, go around. Unless of course you are landing a one way strip.

6. Carry the appropriate survival equipment in the plane. Don't know what that is? Alaska's required list is a good place to start. Then add things for your requirements.

7. Find out how long an average rescue takes in your area and take as much food (and have a solution for water) as needed to last at least that long, and take enough for everyone.

8. Make it easier for rescuers to find you by using an inReach, and consider carrying a sat phone with numbers already programmed in. You know, various rescue agencies, helicopter company to come retrieve your plane, etc.

9. Carry enough CAT tourniquets for everyone on the plane and know how to use them.

10. Carry enough IFAKs for everyone on the plane and know how to use them.

11. Carry a home or travel first aid kit.

12. Learn to fly slow. Learn to land slow.

13. If you land off-airport you will eventually bend your airplane. Understand that. Be prepared for that. Bend it at the slowest speed possible and without a passenger on board.

14. Know your own personal limitations. That includes training, currency, health (physical and mental) and weather.

There are a million other things to learn about backcountry and off-airport flying and that's what makes it so fun. You find a lot of it discussed here, just takes some digging.

At 250 hours you are one of the most dangerous pilots in the air. At 1,000 hours you realize you really don't know anything about flying yet.

And while here, pay attention to what MTV says (the most knowledgeable backcountry pilot I know of), and what Contact Flying says (Contact likes to learn things the hard way. He's probably done everything you shouldn't and he's survived them all. Listen to what he says), and Rob, our nighttime AG pilot (okay not much terrifies me- but that does), doesn't post a lot here but when he does you need to listen to what he's saying. There are other very knowledgeable pilots here, and with time you'll figure out who they are. Listen to them.

Practice. Practice. Practice.

That's your best safety gear.