ExperimentalAviator wrote:Paradise! When did you take that?

Last spring after the oil tanker fire closed the Columbia River Gorge to oil shipments. They were stacked up, waiting their turn. The train engineers did not seem too appreciative of me photographing them...

This sounds familiar. I live an hour from the airport. There are no LSA planes for rent. All I am doing is goofing around and mostly by myself. It's true that the private certificate is a more well rounded option but I wanted something cheap to operate so I would fly more. The SP route is where I went.

I bought a restored champ for mid $20k's fit my mission no matter what the certificate
Insurance was like $100/mo
Can use mogas for inexpensive flying, uses about 4.5 gal/hr with the built in headwind
LS certificate about half of private hrs and cost so I fly sooner and more often since I can afford it
One more-no electrical so no ADS-B mandate and annual cost is usually about $800

Also once you own a plane it's a different story. I mean if i had to rent skis every time i wanted to go skiing I wouldn't ski that often. Same thing with the plane. Granted a c150 would be similar in cost but I like a stick vs yoke (started out in a tomahawk) and full view of tandom seating not to mention the elbow room.

Call me crazy but I also like hand propping. It's cool to me and never have to worry about a dead battery off airport.

Anyway those were my reasons and yours may be different. The more affordable the more I fly was the biggest reason for me.

That being said with the new medical reform I may go back and do the one time medical private license to be able to rent a bigger faster plane if I want to take the family anywhere, but still I'm not doing anything commercial. How's that for a full circle non answer?

But, again, the LS option only works IF your weight and the weight of an available instructor will result in the ability to fly LEGALLY with sufficient gas to perform the requisite flights for training.

I have a PA 11, and it's a great airplane, but there's no way I could legally learn to fly in it, unless I could find a really small CFI.

That said, there are a few LS compliant experimental S out there that could work......bring $$$

MTV

Weighing 2 and a half bills and lack of ability to buy your own plane are likely deal breakers, however.... Practically speaking, PPL is really your only option.

Cary wrote:Bluntly, if your eventual plan is a flying job, the sport pilot is a wasted step, both financially and time-wise.

Cary

I disagree vehemently. Two reasons:

1) sport pilot then CFI-S is the fastest way to "commercial" - legally being able to claim your training as a business expense to the IRS and therefore recoup significant cost advantages over paying for your training out of your own pocket. Then get your private, commercial THEN instrument. If you go the "traditional" way - the IRS regards all your training as required for the career. It's a 30% discount on your time. A financial waste? I think not.

2) Sport pilot is also half the require hours - and you can and certainly will learn a lot more after you get your ticket and enjoy the process of really learning to fly.

What do they call the gal who finishes last in her class in medical school? Doctor. If you pass that check ride you will have deserved it - and you are still a pilot - and those few hours of hood time and night flight won't amount to squat as a patch pirate in a LSA plane. Then set your sites to the next ticket.

I believe firmly that smaller incremental steps are a better approach to a significant investment on your way. Find an instructor who agrees and will work with you. They are out there.

I am just glad I learned to fly when I did.

soyAnarchisto wrote:I believe firmly that smaller incremental steps are a better approach to a significant investment on your way. Find an instructor who agrees and will work with you. They are out there.

Would you explain that in more detail?

LIght sport minimum requirements are 20 hours. Private pilot minimums are 40 hours. Yes most take longer (PPL average is north of 60 hours). Even if you take an extra 20 hours to get your ticket - you will still likely save 20+ hours over going PPL. 20 * $150 = $3,000. I don't know about anyone else, but you really don't start learning until you are in the air solo - getting there faster and for less of an investment make MORE sense to me, not less. Provided you can fly in the things - and at 240lbs the original poster is not likely going to be able to do that. Or have access to one - like buying one.

And following this on.... what is the earliest certification where you can legally (according to either the FAA or IRS) accept compensation for flying? Think it's the commercial ticket? Nope. CFI-sport. The minimum requirement is 150 hours. Commercial is 250. Do the math on what an extra 100hrs of training will cost you. And you will be doing it in a plane that burns a lot less gas and cheaper to get the time.

Once you can legally be compensated - you can legally start your own business as a pilot and from that point on - all of your additional training is a business expense - reduces your gross income directly and therefore results in paying no income taxes. Now ignore the fact that you will have a hard time getting hired to actually teach people to fly and do primary training, or get insurance - you'll have plenty hard time doing that as a 0-dual-time-given CFI too - really this is all about moving through the phases to viable employment as quickly and as efficiently as possible. Be a rampy, wash planes, do whatever you can to cover the cost of your training - but at least you won't be paying income tax on the money you have to earn from somewhere to pay for that training. The result is a net approximate savings of about 30% on your training. That's significant. It will offset the cost of the 2 extra checkrides you take - however each of those will be simpler because you can't be tested on stuff you are not required to know (like instrument and commercial standards in CFI primary check ride). But you better know your stuff in that primary cfi-s ride.

I argue that going light sport first and then CFI-sport first lets you test the waters with a smaller investment. Suppose you don't like flying that much - or you don't have the knack for it. You wasted thousands less discovering that before you wash out.

According to my math, here's the most efficient financial path to CFI:

LS->(PPL->INSTRUMENT)->CFIS->COMM->CFI

I put PPL and INSTRUMENT in parenthesis - you might just fly the 150 hours and have fun like 95% of us - solo and lightly loaded and camping out. On the other hand you might decide you need other incremental ratings to help consume some of those hours. Bottom line is shoot for taking that check ride at 150 and be well prepared for it. Then you will enjoy significant savings in getting all the follow-on ratings.

I'm not an accountant, but I could play one on the interwebs. Make sure you seek professional advice from an aviation accountant or tax attorney and pay attention to stuff like hobby loss rules.

I'd say get you PPL in a 172.
I took my training in a 152 and it can get a little tight, especially XC when your just learning how to mange all the stuff in the cockpit. Also getting in and out.

soyAnarchisto wrote:I argue that going light sport first and then CFI-sport first lets you test the waters with a smaller investment. Suppose you don't like flying that much - or you don't have the knack for it. You wasted thousands less discovering that before you wash out.

Soy, I agree with everything you've said in your whole post -but- with the realities of the OP's weight, that seems like a fairly unlikely possibility.

I don't know Ansel personally, so I have no idea how much of that weight is football conditioning vs couch conditioning, and if he's pretty tall (I think he is), much less of that weight could be lost if he chose to lose it. But in the end, 1320lbs is 1320lbs. I don't know if LSA training is a feasible option at that weight. But I'm not the expert on LSA aircraft, is there one out there that can handle a feasible 450lb crew with enough fuel to accomplish meaningful training? By my math, that's an ~820 lb empty weight for just an hour's fuel plus reserve at 6 gph. Aren't most of the low empty weight planes certified at a lower gross weight? I think a J-3 is only 1220 mgw, which at ~750lbs empty leaves 470lbs useful load for crew and gas.

CamTom12,
With no shoes I"m 6 foot and some of the weight is "couch conditioning" as you call it.

Edit; Thanks soy for taking the time to write that.

soyAnarchisto wrote: LIght sport minimum requirements are 20 hours. Private pilot minimums are 40 hours. Yes most take longer (PPL average is north of 60 hours). Even if you take an extra 20 hours to get your ticket - you will still likely save 20+ hours over going PPL. 20 * $150 = $3,000. I don't know about anyone else, but you really don't start learning until you are in the air solo - getting there faster and for less of an investment make MORE sense to me, not less. ....
I argue that going light sport first and then CFI-sport first lets you test the waters with a smaller investment. Suppose you don't like flying that much - or you don't have the knack for it. You wasted thousands less discovering that before you wash out.....

I agree with this line of thought. Admittedly the OP might have issues with the limited useful load of a lot of LSA's, but maybe not. A 7AC Champ's book weight is 1220 gross, 740 empty That's 480# useful. OK, throw in full fuel (14 gal) @ 84#, that leaves 396 left. That's the OP's 250, plus a 146# instructor or companion. My private pilot CFI weighed about 130 soaking wet, so that scenario is definitely doable.
And i'm sure there must be some thin DPE's around too.

hotrod180 wrote:

soyAnarchisto wrote: LIght sport minimum requirements are 20 hours. Private pilot minimums are 40 hours. Yes most take longer (PPL average is north of 60 hours). Even if you take an extra 20 hours to get your ticket - you will still likely save 20+ hours over going PPL. 20 * $150 = $3,000. I don't know about anyone else, but you really don't start learning until you are in the air solo - getting there faster and for less of an investment make MORE sense to me, not less. ....
I argue that going light sport first and then CFI-sport first lets you test the waters with a smaller investment. Suppose you don't like flying that much - or you don't have the knack for it. You wasted thousands less discovering that before you wash out.....

I agree with this line of thought. Admittedly the OP might have issues with the limited useful load of a lot of LSA's, but maybe not. A 7AC Champ's book weight is 1220 gross, 740 empty That's 480# useful. OK, throw in full fuel (14 gal) @ 84#, that leaves 396 left. That's the OP's 250, plus a 146# instructor or companion. My private pilot CFI weighed about 130 soaking wet, so that scenario is definitely doable.
And i'm sure there must be some thin DPE's around too.

The problem is finding that 740 pound empty weight 7AC Champ.....or.....?? There's a gent near here who has one of the experimentals that qualifies as LS, and it weighs 750, but with a 1320 GW, so yes, they MAY be out there. But, do some research first.

MTV

ExperimentalAviator wrote:CamTom12,
With no shoes I"m 6 foot and some of the weight is "couch conditioning" as you call it.

ExpAv,

Regarding the PPL, you'll need to get a Class III medical certificate. With your stats, the medical examiner is going to be looking for sleep apnea. If you get referred for a sleep test, the odds are you'll walk out of that test with a diagnosis of sleep apnea. That means sleeping with a CPAP machine and maintaining average usage of 6 hours/night. It also means you'd better have good insurance, because this stuff is expensive.

The FAA medical office has been going hard after sleep apnea for several years. They backed down on their guidelines for AMEs (aviation medical examiners) a couple of years ago, but don't let that fool you. It's still on the radar, and it's on all of the applications you have to fill out. Medical reform means that once you have your class III medical certificate you only have to check in with a regular M.D. every few years. But your certificate will likely be a special issuance and be conditioned on the doctor's verification that you continue to use CPAP therapy. I've been on special issuance for sleep apnea, myself for 8 years, so I am pretty familiar with the dance with the FAA and the AME. We'll have to see how regular docs handle it.

All of this is to say, it's best to drop as much weight as possible. It's good for your health. Weight loss doesn't guaranty that you won't be diagnosed with sleep apnea (I'm normal BMI but stuck due to my own physiology), but there is a strong correlation. But if you apply with your current stats, you're likely heading for a sleep test and all that follows.

Finally, if you do have sleep apnea, then take the treatment. You'll sleep better, feel better and probably live longer. If keeping your pilots license helps motivate you to keep in shape, that's another good reason to go for the PPL. YMMV, of course.

CAVU

CAVU, Thank's for the heads-up about that.

ExperimentalAviator wrote:CamTom12,
With no shoes I"m 6 foot and some of the weight is "couch conditioning" as you call it.

Edit; Thanks soy for taking the time to write that.

With just under a teeny little bit of experience in one, I think champs are comfortable for taller folks. Maybe someone with some decent seat time can verify.

No offense meant with the couch conditioning comment, by the way.

I'm just an inch shorter than you. Everybody's body makeup is slightly different, but I'd guesstimate you could probably earn an hour of gas with some hard work, maybe an hour plus vfr reserve. That's fuel weight at 6gph.

If you're interested in pursuing the LSA route, I recommend that you start working on a diet and exercise plan. That'll buy you more options for what you want to do, and is a pretty cheap investment other than the time. It'll be a good personal gauge (to yourself. No-one else's opinion really matters here) of how committed you are to this flying thing, and the flying thing will be a pretty good motivator on days where you don't feel like sticking to your program (happens to everyone).

If you're not interested in pursuing the LSA route, I recommend that you start working on a diet and exercise plan (for reasons that CAVU has already touched on, and at the end of the day your health is all you have!)

No offense meant with the couch conditioning comment, by the way.

None taken, I though it was a rather humorous way to put it.

In these conversations, the recreational License never seems to come up

https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advocacy- ... rtificates

No weight restriction like LS and less hours required then PPL.
Most everything else can be added to the RS via an endorsement (like range restrictions)

And I'm pretty sure the RS training and hours can go towards a PPL if you wanted to upgrade if you ever needed IFR.

https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advocacy- ... rtificates

Good point.

The recreational license always seemed like the worst of both worlds, after the SP ticket came along-- you have almost as many restrictions as SP, but still need a medical.
I've only known one person who got a recreational license.
I'm not sure if I know anyone who has a SP license, but i know a lot of people who fly exercising the sport pilot privileges of their PP license without a medical.

I saw a chart recently which listed all of the certificate holders along with their ratings. I can't recall where I saw it, or I'd post it here. But the numbers (if I'm recalling correctly) were essentially very few with the recreational certificate, only about 1-2%, roughly 10% with a sport pilot certificate, and everyone else had a pilot certificate of some sort, private, commercial, or ATP. I remember being somewhat surprised how many had their IRs, about half of all certificate holders.

My reasoning for poo-poohing the sport pilot certificate (same reason for recreational) is that EA specified in his first post that he "...would like to fly for fun first and then after getting some time under my belt get a job flying." While it may be possible to "get a job flying" as a sport pilot-only CFI, there are so few outfits around the country which rent or instruct in light sport aircraft that the chances of getting a job flying without going through the traditional route of private, instrument rating, commercial, etc. are pretty minimal.

Also, my observation is that the vast majority of pilots who stick with flying (not all do, obviously) want to go farther than just their private--it whets their desire for more skills, better utility, more opportunities. The same is probably true for sport pilots, especially when they realize that in addition to the restrictive weight limits, they can't do some of the basic things that private pilots can, like take their families for a ride (1 passenger only); or fly above 10,000' MSL; or fly at night; or fly in B, C, or D airspace (i.e., where there are towered airports) without additional training; or fly on instruments; or fly in another country (no crossing the border into Canada or Mexico or across to the Bahamas).

Not arguing with Soy, and not saying he's wrong, but before running down a path that involves trying to save money by contemplating the use of tax benefits, it's essential to get proactive advice from a good CPA, preferably one who has some knowledge about pilot certificates and the requirements for each one. Although I never claimed to give tax advice, I took several courses, both in school and later as continuing education, which helped me to see red flags that should involve good accountants, so that whenever I had clients who were embarking on some activity that involved taxes, I could advise them in the strongest terms that they needed good tax advice from a CPA. This path has red flags.

Meanwhile, EA, here's a link to the FAA's latest issue of "Safety Briefing", which has some of the answers you're looking for. It comes out bi-monthly, so you might want to get on the e-mailing list, too. http://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing ... ct2016.pdf

Cary