Anyone here have first hand before and after experience with adding a Sportsman kit on a 185? Mine is a ‘65 185D model with the 520 upgrade, with stock wing + VG’s. Operated mostly on 3430 floats and wheel skis in the winter. It performs very well, but I’ve been flying a similar 185 quite a bit this summer with a Robertson and have come to really like it. Attracted to the Sportsman idea mostly due to the simplicity of instal vs the Robertson. Mostly interested in feedback from anyone here, if any that’s added it to their 180/185. Thanks!

Yes, I have flown a 185 before and after, in fact, two of them.

The first was a Robertson equipped airplane that I picked up new....1985 model. Our outfit wanted an honest assessment of whether the Sportsman mod was worth doing. I had ~ 2000 hours in that plane on floats, wheels and wheel skis at that point.

I was somewhat skeptical that the Sportsman would do much for an RSTOL equipped plane. I was very pleasantly surprised. The Sportsman decreased stall speed some, but more importantly, it provided considerable stability to the airplane when really slow....as in around 40 kts. It also returned some aileron authority due to the aileron gap seals in the kit.

In other words, it was a great addition to a working airplane.

The second plane I had only flown ~ 20 hours or so. It was on EDO 3430 floats. Before and after, there was no comparison....the Sportsman kit made a great deal of difference in stall speed. I had to re-learn how to get it out of the water, but once I did, it launched shorter, and was much more “solid” right out of the water.

Frankly, I’m not a believer in airspeed indicators accuracy close to the stall, so I won’t cite stall speeds, but when you’ve flown a plane for a while, you definitely notice a decrease in stall speed. I did in both these.

In case you haven’t figured this out yet, I’m a big fan of the Sportsman kit.

MTV

The way I think about it is that it turns a 1950s airfoil design into something closer to a 2000s design. In airplane terms its a cheap mod which made my 170 fly better.

The leading edge cuff and VG's was a game changer on my 170B.

daedaluscan wrote:The way I think about it is that it turns a 1950s airfoil design into something closer to a 2000s design. In airplane terms its a cheap mod which made my 170 fly better.

I guess "cheap mod" is relative.
The kit is over $2K, I'd guess with shipping it's close to $2500.
Then 40 to 50 hours for installation--
at $100 an hour shop rate that's another $4K to $5K.
Then paint to match, probably another $500 for materials & labor.
So a total of $7K to $8K, if it's all hired out.
Not a total bank-breaker, but not what I'd call "cheap".

If it takes a knowledge AME a weeks worth of hours to install a leading edge cuff they are "milking" it I'd say. In the northern latitudes we regularly paint these black, use Mother Nature a a natural de-frosting agent. That way painting can be done ahead of time with touch ups on the cherry max thereafter.

hotrod180 wrote:

daedaluscan wrote:The way I think about it is that it turns a 1950s airfoil design into something closer to a 2000s design. In airplane terms its a cheap mod which made my 170 fly better.

I guess "cheap mod" is relative.
The kit is over $2K, I'd guess with shipping it's close to $2500.
Then 40 to 50 hours for installation--
at $100 an hour shop rate that's another $4K to $5K.
Then paint to match, probably another $500 for materials & labor.
So a total of $7K to $8K, if it's all hired out.
Not a total bank-breaker, but not what I'd call "cheap".

Fair comment, but if you can install and paint it yourself it’s great bang for buck.

Yes, the Sportsman costs a few bucks. That said, it's not rocket science to install. If you can find a mechanic to work WITH you, it can go pretty fast, and save some $$.

In any case, it's a mod that's well worth doing.

MTV

Compared to the time and cost to install an RSTOL kit, I think those numbers are relatively inexpensive.

I have time in a number of different 185s with the RSTOL kit installed. Most of them vary in what other wing mods have been done. I have flown 3 different aircraft that have the RSTOL, WingX, VGs, and Sportsman cuff. Two of those are my favorite 185s to fly. The third is weird, something just feels a bit off. Hard to explain.

I have flown a bunch of other 185s that have the RSTOL kit only as well as the RSTOL kit and the Sportsman cuff. They also have a lot of variation in how the airplane feels in flight and during maneuvering.

Bottom line, you can have different feeling results from the same installation. I don't know whether it is a legacy of past airframe tweaks in these heavily used aircraft, or if the installation is super finicky on some of these mods, or some of all of the above.

But if I were dressing up my own 185 I would put on everything but the RSTOL. Not because I am opposed to the RSTOL, but with the WingX, VGs, and Sportsman cuff, I can get an incredible wing without the massive investment in the RSTOL. And while the other things might be finicky in installation, the RSTOL is often quite finicky. Most of the RSTOL aircraft break in different directions during stalls in different configurations, unless they are really, really balanced installs.

Thanks fellas. Exactly the first hand feedback I was hoping for.

I really liked how the Sportsman equipped airplanes I’ve had the privilege of flying flew. I’m planning on doing the Sportsman on my new airplane but (to the surprise of literally everyone), not until later. I’ve learned that money can be better spent on gas and gals.

I would do the Sportsman and the Micro VGs if I had a stock wing to play with. My 185 was a dream to fly with that setup. I really miss flying that wing!!

Last Sportsman kit I installed took me 3 days, and that was because the owner had me install the LED wing tip lights and I had to run the power through the wing... Also did not paint the cuff... My shop rate is $50.00 an hour, about 30 hours to install that set.

I have on my shop floor a new Sportsman kit with WingX extensions to install on a C-182 in November. First time doing WingX so I blocked in a week for the job.

Brian.

pilotryan wrote:I really liked how the Sportsman equipped airplanes I’ve had the privilege of flying flew. I’m planning on doing the Sportsman on my new airplane but (to the surprise of literally everyone), not until later. I’ve learned that money can be better spent on gas and gals.

I would do the Sportsman and the Micro VGs if I had a stock wing to play with. My 185 was a dream to fly with that setup. I really miss flying that wing!!

I would skip the VG’s and spend the “gals” money on gas.

Brian-StevesAircraft wrote:Last Sportsman kit I installed took me 3 days, and that was because the owner had me install the LED wing tip lights and I had to run the power through the wing... Also did not paint the cuff... My shop rate is $50.00 an hour, about 30 hours to install that set.

I have on my shop floor a new Sportsman kit with WingX extensions to install on a C-182 in November. First time doing WingX so I blocked in a week for the job.

Brian.

That's awesome install time. I was thinking of doing this on my 172, but it is going to younger pastures soon and the new owner has expressed great interest in installing the Sportman's cuff. The new owner might be contacting you since he is located not far from you in Oregon.

Mapleflt wrote:If it takes a knowledge AME a weeks worth of hours to install a leading edge cuff they are "milking" it I'd say. In the northern latitudes we regularly paint these black, use Mother Nature a a natural de-frosting agent. That way painting can be done ahead of time with touch ups on the cherry max thereafter.

From the Stene website
https://www.steneaviation.com/pages/fre ... -questions

"FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
1: What is included in the kit? The kit includes inboard composite fairing, new leading edge skins, transition blocks, new landing light lens assembly (applicable models), aileron gap seals (except for 206/207), all rivets, composite wingtips, installation drawings, instructions, and STC paperwork.
2. What is the average installation time? For an individual who has not installed the kit before the installation takes 40-50hours without paint. Experienced installers on average take 30-40hours ......
5: Do you offer installation? Yes, our average installation is approximately 27 to 32 hours charged at our shop hourly rate."

I don't think 40 hours is an unreasonable guesstimate based on this, esp if painting is included.
And the shop rate around here seems to be somewhere between $75 & 100 an hour.
FWIW I think if I do decide to get a Sportsman, I'll be calling Brian!!

On July 9, 2020 I purchased a 1979 Cessna 180 Skywagon with a Texas Skyway O-550. 'Got my tailwheel endorsement a week later and have enjoyed the Skywagon immensely the first month of ownership to the point that after the first month, I have dove headfirst into converting the interior to a utility interior, replacing all the windows, QMI trim wheel, etc, etc, etc. In a few months, the IFR certified plane will be getting a new panel including a Garmin 3X Touch with its G530W/G430W, etc.

Since I'm a rookie and have learned an immense amount from the likes of MTV and others about the Sportsman cuff on this forum, my Skywagon is now in the shop getting its new Sportsman cuff so that my painter can paint both the leading wing edge and interior in two weeks. I flew the wagon recording a lot of stall, max speed, approach speed data before I flew the plane to the shop to get its Sportsman so I'm anxious to fly in a week or so after the work is completed to record new data with the Sportsman cuff'd wing.

I see on this forum and the C180/C185 club forums that every single Skywagon owner that installed the Sportsman cuff is happier than a pig in mud with their decision. Even though the Wing X seems like a great way to add to its useable load and reduce takeoff distance, I have chosen NOT to add the Wing X because of Scott Perdue's study showing that the Wing X reduced its roll rate in his 180. And with the O-550 my wagon can take off very quickly anyway.

Nowhere do I see where a Skywagon owner who installed the Sportsman, flew their plane with the Sportsman for a while, and then added the VGs to determine that the VGs improved short field performance over and above the Sportsman. They either installed the Sportsman and VGs at the same time, only installed the Sportsman, or only installed the VGs.

Question: Is there anyone who could comment that they installed the Sportsman and then later installed VGs? I'd love to hear from a Skywagon owner if they found an improvement with the VGs above and beyond what they found with their Sportsman wing.

Sorry for being long winded...

Question:
Do you really have a need for more slow speed performance? Just because VGs exist, doesn’t mean you have to have them, and you’re well into the land of diminishing returns.

IMO, the Sportsman is worth it, but it only if flown properly. Much above 60kts, there’s very little difference between it and a stock wing. You need to be properly slow (high AOA) before the Sportsman really comes into play. Having said that, I’ve never heard of anyone regretting the install. I installed one on my 185, but it’s because I fly into a 900’ strip at 6200 msl and wanted more margin. I don’t *need* it anywhere else I go (including the short stuff in Idaho and Utah), but the little bit of extra margin is nice.

VGs are not so universally liked. Some swear by them, others (like the previous owner of my airplane) removed them. Some say it makes the stall more benign, others say it makes it worse - slower, but worse. Plus, washing the airplane without cutting yourself or damaging a VG is difficult. Been there, done that on a previous airplane I used to fly.

VGs can be installed anytime. As a new 180 pilot, the money is FAR better spent on gas and lots (LOTS!) of landings. I can’t emphasize that enough. FLY FLY FLY!

It probably took me 100 or so hours before I felt like I really had a handle on the subtle nuances of flying my 180 well, and I’ve flown tailwheel airplanes my whole life. I’m now 500+ hours in and I’m still learning little things here and there. It never stops. I promise you that a good pilot in a stock 180 will extract considerably more performance out of it than an average pilot in a modded airplane, and will be far more consistent in the process.

Before throwing anymore mods at it, buy lots of gas, do lots of landings. Better yet, go fly with someone who understands 180s. I mean *really* understands them. That probably won’t be the local CFI.

Kevin, Cannon said it well. I would skip the VG’s. The Sportsman will give you plenty of added performance. Use the VG money on gas.

Kurt

Cannon wrote:..... As a new 180 pilot, the money is FAR better spent on gas and lots (LOTS!) of landings. I can’t emphasize that enough. FLY FLY FLY! It probably took me 100 or so hours before I felt like I really had a handle on the subtle nuances of flying my 180 well, and I’ve flown tailwheel airplanes my whole life. I’m now 500+ hours in and I’m still learning little things here and there. It never stops. I promise you that a good pilot in a stock 180 will extract considerably more performance out of it than an average pilot in a modded airplane, and will be far more consistent in the process. Before throwing anymore mods at it, buy lots of gas, do lots of landings......

What he said.

Great advise! I am going to do just that after getting the wagon out of the shop; that is, lots and lots of landings. No VGs for now. Thank you very much for your advise/comments.

Full disclosure: I actually did have ONE guy who told me that he found VGs to be an improvement over and above the Sportsman wing. Willie Stene of Stene aviation, who obviously has garnered a lot of respect from MANY of us in the aviation community, told me that he flew his Skywagon and loved the Sportsman, but then went back a few years later and added the VGs noticing still more "control effectiveness".

One more comment: Because I think the Sportsman wing is very close to an optimum wing, I was hesitant to add VGs especially given that the Sportsman includes aileron gap seals which improves aileron authority. Then I thought to add VGs to just the tail (rudder, underside elevator), but that idea got shot down by Micro Aerodynamics who said that the STC would not cover just adding VGs to the tail.

In summary, I am going to do just what you guys advised and I look forward to learning, learning, learning. I've got 1100 hours in Cirrus G5, Mooneys, etc., but this Skywagon is a totally different breed, a real hoot as far as I'm concerned.

Again, thank you.