Rhyppa wrote:. ........ Remember the bush country of Canada was opened up with DeHavilands and Stinsons, and the Cessna's came along a little latter.

I think the Beaver came along a bit later too. The Noorduyn Norseman (1935) predated the Beaver (1948) by quite a few years. Even earlier models used up north include the Stinson Detroiter (1930-ish), the Fairchild 71 (1929), and various Bellancas.

Eric

If you're looking at a Stinson, get a mechanic that has plenty of Stinson experience to pre-buy. The Stinson yahoo group would be an excellent place to start. I think they even have a "pre buy" inspection list on there. If the Stinson you get has a Franklin, the same applies x2. Find someone with a Stinson where you are and ask who they use for mechanic. If you're planning on floating it and it doesn't come with floats, plan on waiting a good long time and paying lot of $ to find a set of approved (EDO 2425, or maybe 2440) floats that are Stinson rigged. If they aren't already Stinson rigged, it will cost thousands to have Peck Aero make you up some rigging. Kenmore (holder of Edo STC) will be of no help to you, and Peck knows what this stuff is worth. If you find a set of beater floats that need bottoms, reskinning will cost thousands. If 4 seats, or lots of room is in your future, probably cheapest to buy the right plane first. I've gone down the road of buy now and add improvements later, and it is much more expensive than adding $10-$20,000 to the aircraft loan up front and getting something that already has what you want on it.

I have a 1946 stinson 108-1 with Franklin 150 I love it ,faster than 172 and gets off the ground faster, ADs are low, run auto fuel with the Franklin, my annual was $400 if i could do it over again i would get a fabric one. its a good first airplane if you have no tail wheel time insurance is affordable!

I really like Stinsons.....There are quite a few around N. California, including some that friends have in the local area. I have been thinking it would be a nice transition bird into tailwheels out of the 172 at a price well south of an older 180.....but:

Those I know that have metallized Stinsons with the 220 hp Franklin tell me they flight plan 130 mph at 11-12 gph fuel burn.....I plan 115 kts/hr (130 mph) at 75%, 8-9 gph in the 180 hp 172, fixed pitch. While I am loving the 1100 fpm climb at sea level that the cold weather is providing, it is by no means anywhere near what the big motor Stinsons can do (2k fpm+) Short field and climb performance notwithstanding, is this 130 mph a typical 108-2 cruise speed? Is this a function of metallizing them (seems like a lot of them have been metallized around here)? I would have thought with the CS prop they would get out and run with an extra few gallons per hr fed at them, maybe not quite as fast as a 180, but certainly faster than my 180 hp 172.

As I mentioned before, I like the looks of them......they are a true classic. Just not sure if when stepping up to a bigger fuel bill a few extra knots might go with it?

Flynengr

With my stock 165 Frank I used to consistently get 100kts indicated at 10gal/hr (turning about 2550rpm). With the O-470 I can get 110kts @ 12gal/hr (~21"/23). So gains in airspeed are marginal unless you just want to guzzle fuel. The real gains come in takeoff and climb performance - ground roll is maybe a couple hundred feet and climb is 2-3x that of the stock engine, depending on your weight. The Stinson is just too draggy to ever realize much gain in efficient cruise. Whether these numbers are worth it to you is, as always, a function of your application.

Those are very consistent with the numbers I have heard.......The "faster than a 172" comment above threw me.

I heard there is a Stinson type club get together up at O22 every year....Anyone on the board go?

Flynengr

On floats the big motored Stinson are faster than 180hp 172's on floats with CS props. Period, end of discussion. Ain't even close. Most run within 5-8 mph of 180's on floats when both are loaded heavy. Even closer when both are light. On wheels about 130mph at 2350 squared with the 220 and 82inch hartzell CS. Sucking about 10-11gph. Those are my real world numbers. You don't buy Stinsons to go fast though. Mine was fabric.

I also have a 46 108-1 with a 150 franklin. With myself 260 lbs and my wife 130 (but don't tell her I told you) and full fuel I still have enough useful load to put 380 lbs in the back seat. I have a mid-range wooden prop in mine for many reasons. First is they look cool and the second is that metal props can set up a harmonic vibration if the engineis run between 2100 and 2300 rpm's for too long. In a no wind condition I can get 115 mph out of her at 2450 rpm and 8gph fuel burn. with 36 usable that's 4 and a half hours in a -1. With just me and full fuel I can take off in a few hundred feet. Climb out at between 800-1200 fpm If I knew then what I know now I would have gotten a later model 47 -2. They have the baggage compartment where mine does not. They are set up for the larger engines without needing a lot of modifications, but still have the smaller tail which I am told works a little better in crosswinds than the big tail -3's. I saw a -3 at the seaplane base at Oshkosh several years ago that had the o-470 and amhib floats on it so it's not impossible to get those, just probably expensive. If you are talking about the Stinson fly-in at Columbia, CA that has been going on for 30 years or so now. Usually a good turn-out and if those guys can't answer your questions, very few can. I've not been to one yet but hope to make it this year. They are having one in Vancouver WA (KVUO) in Sept. Brian Thompson from Yakima brings his 180 hp conversion down and that is a really neat set-up.
If you can find a good one take a chance. Mine cost me less than a new minivan and has given me good service and a lot of fun.
Mark and the yellow stinson

Russ, sounds like we saw about the same numbers. My 110kts is pretty close to your 130mph. Only difference is the fuel consumption - I had heard that the F220 used a bit less than the 470 and your numbers confirm it.

The Intl Stinson Club does their annual fly-in at Columbia/O22. Since I'm relatively new to the west coast I've never had the chance to attend and since I let my membership lapse I doubt I'd be welcome now. Great field though, just flew in there yesterday. Nice grass strip and a short walk into town.

I AGREE !!!! Stinson 108-3 is the very best plane for the money.

Hardtail John and Ziggy are quite knowledgeable on the Stinson 108-3 and they steered me in the right direction when I began looking at this unique aircraft.
I have been doing a ton ( YES A TON ! ) of research I like to call " Due Diligence " ( my spouse is a CPA geek ) into the buying of a Stinson 108-3.
I have found a plane with excellent logs , good fabric & and no engine -- just ripe for a project plane rebuild and 0-470 convert ?
I have obtained the special ( 1960's era ) Stinson ( 8 ) page report and would share it with you as I research everything possible on the 108-3 ?
I have some other magazine article from the 1950's as well and it gives a WHOLE LOT of good insight into the airplane and its handling characteristics ?

My e-mail : [email protected]

Thanks,
Mike

Vick,
I think you would be welcome'd, but be prepared to be
talked into rejoining.

Vick wrote:Russ, sounds like we saw about the same numbers. My 110kts is pretty close to your 130mph. Only difference is the fuel consumption - I had heard that the F220 used a bit less than the 470 and your numbers confirm it.

The Intl Stinson Club does their annual fly-in at Columbia/O22. Since I'm relatively new to the west coast I've never had the chance to attend and since I let my membership lapse I doubt I'd be welcome now. Great field though, just flew in there yesterday. Nice grass strip and a short walk into town.

Tinstar- buy one with the 0470 already installed. gonna save you lots of time and money in the long run. Trust me on this. Unless they are selling that project airframe for $1, by the time you hang the 470 you're gonna have more in it than what it costs to buy one ready to go. And that's assuming your time is worth nothing. Russ

I have a buddy here in town that just told me he is looking to sell his 108-1. I think he is asking $25k. He has another airplane as well and is looking to upgrade houses so selling the Stinson is going towards that deal. He just does not have time to fly them both.

Taken from his recent Barnstormers ad: 2507 TT, 374 SMOH Franklin 150hp, KX155 w/GS, Cleve W&B, Rest'd in 94, Auto STC, pants, great logs • Contact Sam Swift, Owner - located Nashville, TN USA • Telephone: 615-604-8557

Tick,

I just bought a -3 with an 0-470 R and Edo 2870's. Researched Stinsons and Maules for about 4 months. I did spread sheets out the ying yang.

If you want to chat - PM me and I'll give you my number and I'll be glad to share with you what I found. I'm no expert, and have never flown a Stinson yet, but I'll be happy to fill you in on what I learned.

garth

C'mon Garth, spill the beans...what tipped the scales for you in favor of the Stinson? The Maule guys are a tough lot, they can handle it.

Vick wrote:C'mon Garth, spill the beans...what tipped the scales for you in favor of the Stinson? The Maule guys are a tough lot, they can handle it.

OK, OK.

I actually fly a MXT-7 - 180 with a club I belong to, and I'm pretty happy with it (tricycle gear). From an affordability standpoint, the only Maule's that would work for me would be the M-4 and 5. I was hoping to spend $60K US including floats. It was tough to find a Maule in that catagory. Found a few up here in Canada - was seriously considering an M-4 but it sold before I had the chance to look at it. These two Maules had the Franklin's in them so that was a draw back. The advantage on the Maule as I saw it was cargo loading - having 3 doors on the passanger side is definately a plus. M-5 is also nice with the extra fuel capability as well as a high gross kit option. In addition to the high gross kit, you also get the 10% upgross with the right set of floats. The problem is that an M-5 in comparable condition to a Stinson-3 was 25-30% more money.

Now, on to the Stinson I looked for a long time and never really heard anything negative on them. The 0-470R engine that I have is a little heavier but can take Mogas, is still very common, parts are inexpensive and the bottom end is likely to go to overhaul (2000 hours) The 2870's are very rare on these birds(was the first one I saw out of about 30 that I looked at) They are a little longer so it will take a bit more to get off the water but I'm sure they will be better in rougher water as well. I've never flown a Stinson but everyone I talk to says they handle very well. They apprear to be a little smaller in the back seat if you are taking passengers when compared to the Maule.

Without question, if you want to lift 7-800lbs off the water, you have to get the 200 HP plus. This leaves you with the 220 Franklin, 0-470 continental, 0-435 Lycomming or the I0-360. Based on my research, I would never get the 0-435 - the parts are more difficult to find than the Franklin and there is only one prop combination that is no longer available. I spoke with one guy that said he waited over a year for prop parts. Don't get me wrong, the engine is apparently solid - but definately on it's way out the door. The 220 Franklin is the best power to weight option IMO, however you are taking a chance with finding parts on that as well. I emailed the folks in Poland a few times and they said they are working on the new engine still, but apparently people have been hearing that story for a while.

If you are wanting to fly floats, you are definately better off finding a Stinson that has been upgraded with the increased motor HP. I looked into all of this when I considered buying a 165 Franklin and converting. Rough costs are as follows;

0-470 Engine (with 500-1000 hrs on it) - $15,000 +
STC and Kit with muffler - $9,600
Labour to install - $8,000+

You can get some credit for your old engine but it will not be worth much. Any Stinson that I looked at with the upgraded motor was selling for less than what the current owner had into it.

You also want to look at the frame - they can corrode. Anyone that has done a proper rebuild will most likely have sandblasted the frame and painted it.

If you want floats, the EDO 2425's are the most common - if you can find a set, your looking at $8-14K depending on condition. EDO 2870's like mine are much more abundant and seem to go for around $8-9K, but they are longer and heavier by 80 lbs or so I believe.

I'm kinda rambling here but back to the original question - I guess what tipped the scales was the overwhelming positive feedback on the aircraft as well as the price. I can't wait for the ice to melt!!

I'll check the yahoo group, but does anyone with a 108-3 470 have some performance numbers? I'm putting together a spreadsheet with all my options as it gets hard to keep them straight after a while. When I'm finally done, I'll post it somewhere for you guys to take a look at.

Garth did a great job of laying it out like it is. Really, you have 0-470, F220, or IO-360's for a serious workhorse Stinson. All have pluses and minuses. Looking at the pictures, and talking to Brian who helped sell the plane, Garth got the best bang for his buck. Be it a Stinson, Maule, or a 180. Performance, well you aren't going to find many Stinson's on 2870's. A guy who had bought a metalized 108-3 out of North Pole Alaska (Stan Bearup owned it up there) had the 470, the 2870's, and a 3 blade scimter prop. He was not happy with off the water performance, but felt it was due to incorrect float rigging. Some people accidently cut about an inch of the rear float struts and make them take off much better. The owner of that 108-3 is over on the Yahoo group, and hopefully got his issues taken care of. I think you are going to get an equal condition Stinson for about 10-$20,000 less than a Maule. maule will be newer, but I don't know if that means all that much when it comes to airframe condition. I'm biased to the Stinson, but a good friend has a M-7 235, and is happy with it. Previously he had a Stinson with the 165 - he liked that too. The Maule does have a nice loading door, I personally think the Stinson has a better/tougher airframe. The Maule float planes have to have a fin installed hanging down under the tail, can cause clearance problems at docks. Some say they have higher insurance because of ground handling issues, I don't know if that is true. The Maule is a good bit faster, at least the M-7. Both are good planes.

I'm the guy with that Stinson on 2870's. We measured the angle of incidence on a bunch of floatplanes and then rerigged mine. It now is off the water like a cub; its a fantastic performer!
jim

n6zt wrote:I'm the guy with that Stinson on 2870's. We measured the angle of incidence on a bunch of floatplanes and then rerigged mine. It now is off the water like a cub; its a fantastic performer!
jim

I just bought one with 2870's as well, so I'm glad to hear your positive comments on the floats. What engine do you have?

garth