mtv wrote:

Hammer wrote:So with an Ipad you get to pay for the cellular service (plus pay for ForeFlight or system XXX...they don't give it away...I think ForeFlight is a dollar a day),

Man, you need to call Foreflight....there are a LOT better prices than that unless you think you need synthetic vision, etc.

MTV

There's a reason they use the term "dumb as a sack of hammers".

I use a garmin 510 for TFR avoidance. BUT the TFR info is only published during business hours EST. So watch out after hours and weekends!

Look for all the xm devices that did not show a TFR active.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/docs/rpsts/penetrat.pdf

If I read the Garmin site correctly you can get ADS-B or Sirrus XM weather on an iPad with Garmin Pilot.

Don't have either so cannot vouch for either services on Pilot. I do have Pilot and like it but never having flown behind Foreflight I cannot make a comparison. Pilot does pretty much everything I want (other than weather) using a Garmin GLO bluetooth GPS ( also use the GLO) when using Google maps on Android phone or iPad in the car....really saved my bacon in Europe.

TD

TFR avoidance was actually kind of an afterthought in my case. There's plenty of advance notice on most TFR's. Unfortunately the ones that don't come with plenty of warning seem to be local emergency or firefighting TFR's, and the fire ones anyway are quite likely to occur out in the boonies-- where your cell coverage is minimal to non-existent.

I wonder about wireless cell coverage anyway-- I live in rural western WA and there's plenty of places where my cellphone has spotty or no service, unlike the big city where there must be a cell tower on every other tall building. That's why I mentioned satellite wx. Weather via wifi is good for flight-planning at fuel stops, but around here anyway wx can change pretty drastically in a short amount of time-- that's why the desire for "real time" in-flight wx info.

There are a number of primers out there to explain all of the ins and outs of the different methods, so I suggest doing some Google searching. Sporty's iPad Pilot News has a series of videos which are worth watching, and AOPA has some helpful videos, too.

All that being said, I understand the "I'm not computer literate" feeling, because that's me, too. Especially switching to an iPad after years fighting the Microsoft battle, I thought I'd be lost. But not so.

My personal set-up is the original iPad Mini (with WiFi and cellular and 32Gb) mounted on my yoke with a forpilotsonly.com iPad Navigator mount. It is nice because of the flip up cover, which acts as a sunshade when up, so that I've never had the iPad overheat (if it overheats, it shuts down). I have a reduced glare ArmorGlas glass screen protector from MyGoFlight--in my view, it is the best one out there.

I use Foreflight Pro, which provides for geo-referenced charts, approach plates, and taxi diagrams. That costs $150/year and is updated every 28 days. You need an Internet connection to update. For funsies, I added the synthetic vision for an extra $25/year, but I'm not sure I'll keep it when I renew--it's pretty basic and doesn't seem to be all that helpful.

To that, I added a Stratus II, to obtain weather, traffic (spotty until I have ADS-B Out), TFRs, etc. It has an AHRS, so I also added the Horizon app (a FF product), and as a backup AI, it provides solid attitude information in an emergency.

I run FF Pro on both my iPad Mini and my iPhone 5s (16 Gb). I rarely turn on the Horizon app on the Mini, but I mount the iPhone on the panel and use it as the backup AI. I find trying to use the Horizon app on the Mini, even in split screen format, somewhat disconcerting because of the yoke movement. YMMV.

So how usable is all this, and would I change things? First, FF is an incredible app, and they are constantly improving it. The moving map can be configured with the push of a button to show VFR (a composite of sectional and WAC charts), IFR (looks just like LCharts), roads, terrain. Even when I'm flying IFR, I often have the VFR chart up, just because I like it better. But if I need the IFR chart (such as to find an intersection), it's just a tap away.

The Stratus II provides the ADS-B In information (weather, traffic, and TFRs), and mounted on the side of my windshield with a suction cup, it works well--no external antenna necessary. The downside of the suction cup is that it comes loose if I climb more than a few thousand feet higher than when I installed it, so I can pretty much count on having to remount it right around 10,000' or so--and if I do that, it's stuck on there pretty solidly.

None of this is perfect, of course. A few days ago, for instance, I was flying to Durango to visit, when the Stratus showed (on the iPad screen) that it wasn't receiving any ADS-B towers. Well, that's because there are no towers in the mountains west of Pueblo and only one tower in the San Luis Valley, which it wasn't yet picking up. Although we have lots of ADS-B towers in Colorado, they're somewhat inconsistently placed. Yesterday, I was returning from the visit to Durango. Although I have the Stratus II wired to my panel to automatically come on when power is applied, it didn't, and I didn't realize it until I had been in the air for awhile. So I was getting nothing from it. When I turned it on, it worked fine. Why it didn't come on, I don't know. So that's a pilot error thing--I should have checked to make sure it came on.

But later in the flight, after I'd come down to 11,000' from 14,000' after crossing over Pueblo, the FF program suddenly closed. Since I don't actually navigate with the program, it was just a matter of restarting it. But such a shut-down while coming up to an instrument approach would be a bit disconcerting, as it would mean losing the approach plates just when you need them. I have no explanation why it shut down, as it did it on its own, and it started up again when I pressed the FF icon.

If I were to change things, it would be to have a larger capacity Mini and iPhone. When I replace them, I'll go to at least a 64 Gb Mini and a 32 Gb iPhone--maybe more, depending on what is available at the time. Right now, I see no reason to contemplate replacing my Stratus II, although there are newer versions. When I have ADS-B Out installed next month, I suspect the traffic info will be more helpful, too, as right now I only get that if someone else within a 30 mile diameter is broadcasting ADS-B Out, to trigger the ground transmitters. But I'll stay with the basic concept of getting my ADS-B In information with a Stratus and iPad Mini, as it seems to work very well, and FF is for certain an excellent, well supported charting program. Its extra features, which permit thorough flight planning and filing any kind of flight plan, makes it hard to beat. Then after the flight plan has been filed, FF sends a series of emails, first that it was received by them, second that it was received by ATC, and then the bees knees, one that tells you the expected clearance routing.

Sorry that took so long--hope it's useful.

Cary

tailwind5sw wrote:I use a garmin 510 for TFR avoidance. BUT the TFR info is only published during business hours EST. So watch out after hours and weekends!

Look for all the xm devices that did not show a TFR active.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/docs/rpsts/penetrat.pdf

I'll admit this was news to me. I always check Notams, but this could really bite you in the butt.

Here's more about the time windows of TFR data on Garmin devices with XM weather:

https://www.safecom.gov/attachments/18226_A.pdf

Here's the text from the bottom of page 8 of the Garmin Pilot Guide:

NOTE: Temporary Flight Restriction (TFR) data is provided by the FAA and
may not be updated outside of normal business hours. Confirm data currency
through alternate sources and contact your local FSS for interpretation of TFR
data.

Garmin pilot Guide: https://www.faasafety.gov/files/events/WP/WP07/2013/WP0751289/Garmin_Pilot_Pilot_Guide.pdf

Look into a Garmin 796. Waaay good device.

tailwind5sw wrote:
Look for all the xm devices that did not show a TFR active.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/docs/rpsts/penetrat.pdf

Did you mean to say, Look at all the devices that did not show an active TFR? The report you link to also includes ADSB, FF (cellular data), standard published NOTAMS, human error, and others besides XM.

The issue is with the NOTAM system due to poor distribution and management of that information by the FAA, and not with moving map or data transfer technology. Garbage in, garbage out comes to mind and the FAA is responsible for acquiring and distributing that information.

The poor state of the NOTAM system has been widely recognized for a long time, and while we have seen significant improvements over the last several years, it still has a long way to go.

Some where I have an article in the last few years that went into detail. Have not been able to find it. But suffice to say. The electronic boxes are not always up to date still need contact with fss for staying out of trouble concerning VIP airspaces.

blackrock wrote:

mtv wrote:

Hammer wrote:So with an Ipad you get to pay for the cellular service (plus pay for ForeFlight or system XXX...they don't give it away...I think ForeFlight is a dollar a day),

Man, you need to call Foreflight....there are a LOT better prices than that unless you think you need synthetic vision, etc.

MTV

Basic subscription is about $75 per year. That works very well for VFR flight and is all that is needed. I use it on an IPhone for flight planning, briefing, filing, closing, air port information, fuel prices, rental cars, hotels, etc, and as a back-up navigator, but certainly not a primary system as I only have the internal GPS. It is fantastic for how I use it. A Garmin 396 with XM weather is my primary navigation system.

Regarding Foreflight: in addition to all of the great WX information, trip planning, flight plan filing, and now logbook features, I was able to rationalize the annual subscription cost by the simple savings from no longer buying Sectional and Terminal Area charts [i do keep some of the old versions on-board just-in-case]. IF you choose to stay current on paper charts @ $10/chart x twice a year, you quickly can exceed the $80/year subscription (now $99/year with Logbook). This represents about the lowest cost and the highest value of anything in aviation (in MY opinion).

I've flown all over the country and the Bahamas in our 185 and this piece of software has changed my entire approach to WX briefing, flight planning, flight plan filing, and enroute navigation/situation awareness. It is that good. I've recently built a homemade ADS-B (Stratux project) receiver to overlay weather while on-board (still "experimental" and I haven't yet canceled my XM Weather subscription).

The iPad and iPhone plays triple duty: aviation use, work use, personal use. This hardware doesn't show up in my list of Aviation related costs - it is a sunk cost regardless of Foreflight.

This topic brings up a reminder the importance of reading the fine print. Garmin on the opening page, WingX, DTC Duats had, even Pilotweb from the FAA itself has a disclaimer that the info might not be complete and does not replace a briefing or words to that effect. (I haven't looked at DUAT in years, so that may be dated info). Living in Idaho with numerous TFRs close together in late summer, shows the errors at times. Just a few months ago, XM had a TFR south of Johnson Creek for almost 2 weeks after the tfr had been lifted. Garmin's customer service directs one to XM, who in turn says that they only use information provided by the government, and have no control over it..... This is not a one time occurrence, but the most recent that I've witnessed myself. Typical CYA. I asked at both DUATs providers at the NW Av conference in Puyallup a couple of years ago, why they had a disclaimer when it is supposed to be an alternative briefing - no firm answer...... I don't know if there is a perfect answer to all the hoops one can jump through, but it appears to me that a call to FSS is the only sure way, although not the efficient way to avoid trouble down the road if a violation is involved. Whatever you use, read the fine print before accepting. The electronic way is by far the easiest, and efficient, but may not prevent grief down the road.

A while back someone I know bought a Samsung tablet, cheap- $150 or so after discounts & rebates, and loaded it with the sectional / GPS Avare app. Free, no subscription, no wireless conection required- just periodic internet access to load it and update it. He seemed to like it, although I haven't asked him about it since. Just for the sectional & GPS, sounds pretty good-- the downside is that there's no weather, other than getting it via wifi at a pit stop.

Resky wrote:This topic brings up a reminder the importance of reading the fine print. Garmin on the opening page, WingX, DTC Duats had, even Pilotweb from the FAA itself has a disclaimer that the info might not be complete and does not replace a briefing or words to that effect. (I haven't looked at DUAT in years, so that may be dated info). Living in Idaho with numerous TFRs close together in late summer, shows the errors at times. Just a few months ago, XM had a TFR south of Johnson Creek for almost 2 weeks after the tfr had been lifted. Garmin's customer service directs one to XM, who in turn says that they only use information provided by the government, and have no control over it..... This is not a one time occurrence, but the most recent that I've witnessed myself. Typical CYA. I asked at both DUATs providers at the NW Av conference in Puyallup a couple of years ago, why they had a disclaimer when it is supposed to be an alternative briefing - no firm answer...... I don't know if there is a perfect answer to all the hoops one can jump through, but it appears to me that a call to FSS is the only sure way, although not the efficient way to avoid trouble down the road if a violation is involved. Whatever you use, read the fine print before accepting. The electronic way is by far the easiest, and efficient, but may not prevent grief down the road.

This is all true, and good advice. That said, FSS has also made similar mistakes. The biggest difference between a "government provided official" briefing and a self brief such as from the internet and enroute use of XM or other weather data is this: The "government provided" briefing is recorded and a record is kept. So, if you receive an "official" briefing, either from FSS or DUAT provider, and they don't give you information on a TFR, and you subsequently violate that TFR, you will be "excused" for that violation. No enforcement action can be taken in that case. On the other hand, if you self brief, and MISS a TFR or it's not provided to you in your briefing, and THEN you violate a TFR, you're pretty much screwed.

In a different instance, a TFR can go into effect shortly after your briefing, while you're enroute. Even if that TFR wasn't briefed by FSS or DUAT, and you fly through it, you MAY get some hassles from FAA enforcement, but eventually you'll get off without penalty, but a lot of angst in the meantime.

So, I use an "official" briefing, generally FSS, just because I want their "numbers" to stay up so the FAA won't see fit to eliminate this service. Then, once I'm in the plane, I monitor progress with electronic devices. More than once, I've noted a TFR pop up unexpected on or along my route of flight on my GPS or I Pad. A quick call to FSS verified that indeed these went through the system after my briefing. I'd have got off if I'd flown through these (one was dead center across my proposed flight path....what're the odds?) but it's a hell of a lot easier to circumnavigate the things, and not even open a case file with the FAA.

MTV

So if you have an iPad I assume you have an iPhone as well. If you don't want to/or can't afford a data plane for your iPad then just turn on your iPhone "Personal Hotspot" and connect your iPad to your iPhone and use your iPhone’s data plan.

I currently do that in the SQ2. I have two iPad Minis having recently purchased an iPad Mini 4. What I didn't know at the time was the iPad Mini 4 won't fit in Airgizmo's iPad Mini dock cause the 4’s size has been tweaked ever so slightly and Airgizmo doesn't have a Mini 4 dock yet.

I didn't really want to reactivate a data plan on the Mini 2 so now I just WiFi hook it up to my iPhone. Works great.

If you want XM Wx on your iPad there are a couple of options. One is Baron Mobile Link/WxWorx which works with both Foreflight and Garmin Pilot.
https://www.wxworx.com/shop/all/mobile- ... gory_id=33

Another is the SiriusXM Aviation Receiver (includes embedded WAAS GPS receiver). AFAIK it doesn't currently work with Foreflight or Pilot, but does work with at least one other app.
http://shop.siriusxm.com/xm/ctl10600/cp ... n_receiver

I would respectively submit that there is no reason to install a Garmin XXX over an iPad (for VFR flying) unless you like “vendor lock in”, immediately owning an outdated piece of hardware, and paying crazy high subscription prices. Besides, you are already carrying your iPad with you anyway.

I recently installed a Garmin GTN 650 in my 185. It SUCKS compared to Garmin Pilot/Foreflight on my iPad Mini, and every time Pilot or Foreflight release a new feature the GTN 650 SUCKS EVEN MORE because it’s a hardware solution that was outdated technology before it even went on sale.

Now if I could just get XM Wx in Canada and Alaska.

Barnstormer wrote:So if you have an iPad I assume you have an iPhone as well. If you don't want to/or can't afford a data plane for your iPad then just turn on your iPhone "Personal Hotspot" and connect your iPad to your iPhone and use your iPhone’s data plan.

I currently do that in the SQ2. I have two iPad Minis having recently purchased an iPad Mini 4. What I didn't know at the time was the iPad Mini 4 won't fit in Airgizmo's iPad Mini dock cause the 4’s size has been tweaked ever so slightly and Airgizmo doesn't have a Mini 4 dock yet.

I didn't really want to reactivate a data plan on the Mini 2 so now I just WiFi hook it up to my iPhone. Works great.

If you want XM Wx on your iPad there are a couple of options. One is Baron Mobile Link/WxWorx which works with both Foreflight and Garmin Pilot.
https://www.wxworx.com/shop/all/mobile- ... gory_id=33

Another is the SiriusXM Aviation Receiver (includes embedded WAAS GPS receiver). AFAIK it doesn't currently work with Foreflight or Pilot, but does work with at least one other app.
http://shop.siriusxm.com/xm/ctl10600/cp ... n_receiver

I would respectively submit that there is no reason to install a Garmin XXX over an iPad (for VFR flying) unless you like “vendor lock in”, immediately owning an outdated piece of hardware, and paying crazy high subscription prices. Besides, you are already carrying your iPad with you anyway.

I recently installed a Garmin GTN 650 in my 185. It SUCKS compared to Garmin Pilot/Foreflight on my iPad Mini, and every time Pilot or Foreflight release a new feature the GTN 650 SUCKS EVEN MORE because it’s a hardware solution that was outdated technology before it even went on sale.

Now if I could just get XM Wx in Canada and Alaska.

Phil,

For a techie or a gadget guy, I couldn't agree more. The I Pad with ForeFlight is really pretty astounding technology.

That said, I bought a Garmin 396 when they first came out, complete with XM weather, and never looked back. It offered everything I needed, and everything I need now.....really. The only complaint I've ever had about the small Garmin GPS units is the size of their screens. A 796 would solve that, but it's too big.....I know....cant please em.

But, here's what I like about the Garmin portable GPS and XM: It WORKS. The GPS navigates every time, the XM weather works the vast majority of the time, though it may be a little slow at times....but by minutes typically.

I don't need a bunch of flight planning and other "tools" that I never use anyway. I'm purely VFR. I flight plan by plugging in "direct to", then deviate from that as necessary. I also don't need or even want 90 % of the other stuff that ForeFlight offers. I do kinda like the weather briefing apps, but i can get the same on at least a couple of free apps.

I do use an I Pad now, connected to a hot spot. Unfortunately, that only offers weather and radar when I'm low and within range of cell towers. Get in the mountains out in this part of the world, and no weather or radar. Also, the I Pad's viewability pretty much sucks compared to a Garmin portable. And, yes, I have one of the best screen protectors for this purpose....orders of magnitude better than the normal I Pad, but still...... I've had the I Pad check out on me due to heat on a few occasions. It always comes back after a while out of the sunlight, but it's hard to find an "out of the sunlight" location in a Cub cockpit. I keep it on a knee, which helps, but it's still checked out a couple times there. That REALLY sucks, and is something that I never had happen with a Garmin portable.

So, to me, if you NEED weather, XM is still the gold standard. ADS-B just doesn't make it in the mountains, nor does cellular service.

As you accurately point out, there are XM receivers that can connect to the I Pad. So, I pay more for that one box than I would for a Garmin 510 (which comes with the XM receiver), and now I have one more six inch long box cluttering up my cockpit, and one more box to power. Note that I don't have an electrical system in my airplane.....everything is powered from a LiFePO battery I have mounted up front.....which has great capacity, but it needs to be charged periodically, which becomes somewhat problematic on back country flights.
I really miss that old Garmin 396, and I'm seriously considering buying a Garmin 510, renewing my XM subscription, and leaving the I Pad Mini in the baggage compartment.

To each his own, but in my opinion, it's very clear that the IPad wasn't designed for an aircraft cockpit. Further, I like SIMPLE in the cockpit.....fewer gadgets, fewer power cords, fewer battery draws, less is better.

FWIW

MTV

mtv wrote:... I like SIMPLE in the cockpit.....fewer gadgets, fewer power cords, fewer battery draws, less is better. MTV

Me too.

An 8x6 or slightly smaller device with a sectional / moving map GPS would be the ticket for me. Like I think I said before, mainly for situational awareness, with actual navigating done with my G196. Plus the tablet would replace paper charts & AFD's, and could be used at pit stops to check weather notams TFR's email etc via wifi.

While I don't have a iPhone, just a flip-phone (stop laughing!!!)-- I do have a hotspot I use for internet access at home. I suppose I could take it along on a trip for in-flight connections, that would eliminate having to get / pay for cell service for another device. But I'm thinking that the wireless (cellular) internet wx access in-flight might not be so great re reception, as pointed out by MTV. Besides, isn't it technically against the rules to use a cellular device in flight-- something about overloading the system due to connecting to multiple cell towers because of the higher line-of-sight?

The FCC isn't too happy about using a cell phone in flight, and of course, I would never do that.

Just for kicks, I've tried to get Internet in flight via cellphone--and although I've had it connect, I've never been able to use it reliably.

But I gotta say, "I don't have a iPhone, just a flip-phone"--HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Cary

Cary wrote:The FCC isn't too happy about using a cell phone in flight, and of course, I would never do that.

Just for kicks, I've tried to get Internet in flight via cellphone--and although I've had it connect, I've never been able to use it reliably.

But I gotta say, "I don't have a iPhone, just a flip-phone"--HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Cary

Cary,

You're obviously flying waaaay too high. Never got over 1500 all the way to and from OSH this year.....perfect reception all the way.

MTV

mtv wrote:I do use an I Pad now, connected to a hot spot. Unfortunately, that only offers weather and radar when I'm low and within range of cell towers. Get in the mountains out in this part of the world, and no weather or radar. Also, the I Pad's viewability pretty much sucks compared to a Garmin portable. And, yes, I have one of the best screen protectors for this purpose....orders of magnitude better than the normal I Pad, but still...... I've had the I Pad check out on me due to heat on a few occasions. It always comes back after a while out of the sunlight, but it's hard to find an "out of the sunlight" location in a Cub cockpit. I keep it on a knee, which helps, but it's still checked out a couple times there. That REALLY sucks, and is something that I never had happen with a Garmin portable.

So, to me, if you NEED weather, XM is still the gold standard. ADS-B just doesn't make it in the mountains, nor does cellular service.

As you accurately point out, there are XM receivers that can connect to the I Pad. So, I pay more for that one box than I would for a Garmin 510 (which comes with the XM receiver), and now I have one more six inch long box cluttering up my cockpit, and one more box to power. Note that I don't have an electrical system in my airplane.....everything is powered from a LiFePO battery I have mounted up front.....which has great capacity, but it needs to be charged periodically, which becomes somewhat problematic on back country flights.
I really miss that old Garmin 396, and I'm seriously considering buying a Garmin 510, renewing my XM subscription, and leaving the iPad Mini in the baggage compartment.

To each his own, but in my opinion, it's very clear that the IPad wasn't designed for an aircraft cockpit. Further, I like SIMPLE in the cockpit.....fewer gadgets, fewer power cords, fewer battery draws, less is better.

FWIW

MTV

You have some great points Mike. I'm fortunate to be able to panel mount my iPad Mini in the SQ2 so never have any overheat or visibility problems, and in the 185 I vertically mount the Mini where the whiskey compass used to be and direct airflow from one of the vents on it to keep it cool, and because it's vertical mounted don't have any display problems.

In my case the iPad Mini is perfect, but I can see where it might not be for everyone. I'll add that I've been using Garmin Pilot and Foreflight concurrently for a couple of years now, and for the type of flying I do I prefer Pilot. I keep telling myself I'll drop my Foreflight subscription but don't because I find the usability of Foreflight superior to Pilot, and there always seems to be one or two things I like in Foreflight that Pilot doesn't have, like W&B and the ability of users to add/read comments made by other pilots about airports.

I LOVE Pilot's terrain map and its smart airspace, I don't even use sectionals. And like you my flight planning is Go Direct, rubber band in fuel stops, then modify if needed in the air.

Hmmm, maybe my resolution this coming year should be to allow my Foreflight subscription to expire (Dec 31 is decision day).

And that IS a really nice thing about Foreflight/Pilot. They are software solutions, not hardware, so changing is far less painless.

Have an I pad but prefer Garmin 796 and GDL 39 3D.
The Garmin 796 is panel mounted via airgizmo.

So no cables and nothing on my yoke either.

Like a simple clean cockpit.

Now that I got an Avidyne 540 I can make all the flightplans in the Ipad and just transfer them to the 540.
That is the use for the Ipad for me, flight planning.