Compared to real life, I’ve been pretty quiet on this forum. Like many others in Zane’s recent ‘Revolving door’ thread, I just don’t feel like I have much to add. I’m a 50 yr old wannabe bush pilot. Hell, I’m a wannabe pilot, period. I just soloed.

I’m starting this thread to try and give a little bit back to this community. Mostly to the guys and girls that are early in their bush pilot journey and are full of questions like me, but also to those experienced pilots that want to share knowledge or help someone avoid some of their mistakes.

I plan to write about learning to fly, then about choosing and buying a first airplane, then about learning to fly all over again and, hopefully, to write about some adventures that happen along the way.

I’ve never been much of a blogger and I do not have a layout organized in my head so I’m not sure what shape this thread will take. I already have some shareable experience regarding completing on-line ground school, and some experience with the characters encountered in flight training but what I really want to start with is the real meat of the matter-- landings.

Landing occupies most of my waking bandwidth. Driving down the road I gently pull back on my steering wheel and imagine the road smoothly rising up to meet my truck. My mind's eye is focused on the end of an imaginary runway as I drift off to sleep.

Problem is, my landings suck. I feel like my stick and rudder skills are appropriate for my 24 hours of flight experience but I’m really wrestling with the timing and execution of the flare. In fairness, I started with problems on approach, then in the roundout and now I feel competent in both those categories so I expect I will eventually feel competent in the flair, but I am really frustrated. My instructor keeps wanting me to go up into the practise area to practise slow flight but I really feel like I just need repetition to nail the timing. I can stall the aircraft predictably with power on or off at altitude, but that doesn’t help at all when I’m 2 feet off the ground. Then 15 feet off the ground. They coming down hard on the mains or (once) the nosewheel.

I get it on paper. Round out in ground effect then maintain slow flight in low ground effect with increasing backward yoke pressure and a nose-up attitude until the plane just quits flying and squeaks down onto the centerline of the waiting runway. But in practise it is some combination of a) rounding out too high, b) flaring too much, c) flaring too little, d) ballooning, etc. etc. And I’m not even beating myself up about the fact that if I land on the centerline it is more good luck than good skill.

It is worth noting that my home airport (CYSE) is not what most people think of when they think of a training airport. Calm days are rare, swirling winds are common and the circuit is bound by terrain on three sides, with a noise abatement consideration on the fourth. Runway 15 is obscured by trees until the turn to final. In the most normal weather it is bumpy approach into 20 or so knots of wind with alternating lift and sink just before the threshold. If you don’t get it onto the pavement in the first 1/5 of the runway there is a nice crosswind gust to keep things interesting. Early on I said I wanted to learn where I would fly because I didn’t see the sense learning to fly on an easy strip then coming home and being scared. Now I think it would have been wise to limit the number of variables but I’ve made it this far so I think I’ll keep going at my home airport. I have 4 more lessons lined up in the next 5 days, all early in the morning when winds are most likely to be calm.

I just want to fly the circuit land as many times as possible. I feel like the timing will come with repetition. Or, are their drills or skills I can build elsewhere to improve my landings?

All advice appreciated.

albravo wrote:Problem is, my landings suck. I feel like my stick and rudder skills are appropriate for my 24 hours of flight experience but I’m really wrestling with the timing and execution of the flare. In fairness, I started with problems on approach, then in the roundout and now I feel competent in both those categories so I expect I will eventually feel competent in the flair, but I am really frustrated. My instructor keeps wanting me to go up into the practise area to practise slow flight but I really feel like I just need repetition to nail the timing. I can stall the aircraft predictably with power on or off at altitude, but that doesn’t help at all when I’m 2 feet off the ground. Then 15 feet off the ground. They coming down hard on the mains or (once) the nosewheel.

Obviously I haven't been in your lessons, but based on what you're saying maybe your CFI does have a point. If you can fly straight and level for extended periods of time in slow flight, then that might sharpen up your ability to do the same as you round out and touch down. I'm sure you are also right in wanting to practice the actual landings a ton, but maybe you could do both.

Albravo

Welcome aboard.
Looks like I have company.

Wannabe in good company

I've published this in several forums--can't recall whether I've done so here--but it's my take on making good landings. And I have had a lot of feedback over the years, from newbies and oldsters alike, that it works.

How to land an airplane. Sometimes I think, “stop me if I’ve told you this before”, because I’ve written so many times about how to land—or how to solve landing problems. But here we go again. If you and I were to ride together, this is how I’d tell you to do it.

First, you need to have good control of your approach speed. Your approach speed on final should be 1.3 Vso—and Vso means the stall speed in the landing configuration at the aircraft’s current weight. So if it’s just you, or just you and one other, the airplane is probably well under gross weight—Vso will be lower than what the POH says. So if on this landing you’re using full flaps, and on the next one you use only 10 degrees, then adjust your approach speed accordingly. Since you don’t have any power to work with, that means adjusting the pitch. That also means that if you are following the approach speed recommendations in a late model POH, you need to use the slowest recommended approach speed. If the POH says 60-70 knots, use 60, for instance. But why not use the Vso and calculate from there?

Here you’re asking, why not a faster speed than 1.3 Vso? Simple—your landings will be better if you use 1.3 Vso. Trust me—it’s true.

You’re also wondering why we’re not talking about the whole pattern. Well, if you slow down on downwind and more on base so that you’re at 1.3 Vso on final, or if you enter the pattern on base and slow down so that you’re at 1.3 Vso on final, or if you do a straight-in approach so that you’re at 1.3 Vso on final, it really doesn’t matter. What is important is that you’re at 1.3 Vso on final.

Next, you need to know the sight picture for the flare. Here’s how to determine what it should be. On a normal take off, you raise the nose when the airplane is ready to fly. Memorize that, because that’s the sight picture you’ll want when you flare to land, not higher, not lower, but that same sight picture.

So now we’ll divide your landings into 3 parts: approach, leveling off, and landing flare.

So you’re on final approach, using whatever flaps you want to use for this landing, and you’re using 1.3 Vso. Trim for that speed!!!!! Trimming for the approach is as important as trimming for other aspects of flying. If you don’t trim properly, you are an interested passenger, not a pilot. No excuses—you must trim!

When you get within 10-15 feet of the runway surface, level off. Don’t raise the nose, level it, just like when you were flying in the pattern on downwind. Then wait. Don’t get anxious to do anything else—wait! (Here’s a tip on how to determine that 10-15 foot altitude: as you approach the runway, it looks like a gradually widening trapezoid, but if your airspeed is at 1.3 Vso, just as you get to within 10-15 feet of the surface, the runway will appear to suddenly widen exponentially—that’s when you should level off.)

Meanwhile, look toward the end of the runway—it makes it easier than if you look closer to the airplane. That doesn’t mean look all the way to the end of a 10,000’ runway, just toward the end as opposed to looking near the airplane.

Soon the airplane will start to settle naturally, because without any power added, that’s what it does. When it starts to settle, raise the nose to that same sight picture that you had on take off. The airplane will slow more, continue to settle, and voila!, you’ll touch down!

You’re not finished. Continue to hold the nose up by gradually pulling the yoke/stick back as the airplane slows, and then gently lower it to the runway. Maintain directional control with the rudder pedals, and let the airplane slow, maybe with a little braking. But don’t get anxious to do much of anything else, because this is landing, not touch and goes, not “how quickly can I get the flaps up”, or “how soon I can take off the carburetor heat”.

As you become more proficient, you’ll meld the 3 steps into a continuous sort of action, but until then, consciously dividing it into 3 parts will make your landings so much better. Now go land!

Cary

Looking forward to your thread! One of the things that really helps me when I get into a different airplane is to make a landing approach, but then instead of landing, fly the plane the length of the runway as close to the ground as you can without touching. As you do this you can play with the power and feel what it takes to just barely keep it in the air. This gives you instant feedback and gives you a good imprint on the sight picture and lets you "feel it" for more than a fleeting instant.

albravo,

It is good to see your thread is getting good traction. I'm in the same boat so will also benefit from other's experiences as they share on your thread. My first solo was on 7-15-1980 after 11.9 hours of dual. I found my logbook during my recent move to 1st Aero Squadron Airpark. Unlike your training airstrip, mine was located north of Sacramento surrounded by rice fields, and didn't have much wind. As I restart my flying here in southern New Mexico, winds so far are a concern and I might see the same problems you are currently having. I'll let you know, but learning to make good landings back in Sacramento without winds was pretty easy. My only flying prior to taking lessons 36 years ago was a couple hundred hours in hang gliders. I don't know if this was helpful in my transition to GA flying, but most all of my practice solo flights were at a nearby field populated by the early U/L pilots for that area. It was fun trying to match their precision in landing and very short landing roll. I still remember hard braking to get stopped accompanied by brake chatter and vibration. When finished at this short strip, my 1800' home field felt like an endless runway by comparison. The flying club I belonged to hosted their annual fun day with flying contests that included flour bomb drops, balloon bursting, and spot landings. These competitions weren't open for student pilots which for the first two I could understand the concern a low hour student pilot could get in trouble, but for spot landings, wasn't this what our instructors wanted us to work on? I plead my case and they announced over the PA that students would be allowed to compete in the spot landing contest. I won, so what I am saying is if getting dialed into windy conditions for landings have you frustrated, maybe try getting dialed in during calm conditions and work up to breezy as you confidence grows.

albravo, I have no doubt both you and I will be better pilots by learning to deal with the gusty winds of our respective fields, but for confidence building during the early stages, the lack of those gusty winds worked for me. At my new hangar/home this time of year is the windy season, so I won't be restarting my lessons till things calm down. My current hours is 37.3 with the last flight on 2-1-1981, so a lot of rust on the skills I learned decades ago.

Spend an hour with another instructor. Not that there's anything wrong with yours, but someone else might be able to identify and explain something that will click with you.

Lots of capable instructors hit walls with people. Knowing how to instruct is one thing, and knowing how to instruct YOU is another. The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome. If your instructor isn't able to illustrate to you why that last landing didn't work in a way you can understand by the time you make it around the patch and are ready to try again, you're not getting good value from your instructor. Of course taking that understanding of why the last landing didn't work and then actually doing something different is up to you...

If your current instructor has a problem with you spending an hour with someone else, then there IS something wrong with him/her. No instructor worth the gas it takes to haul them around the patch should be bothered by you getting a second perspective. If they are, go elsewhere.

One single observation by a second instructor during my instrument training did more for my flying that the last five flight hours had. He just mentioned that instrument flying is simply an endless series of corrections to an endless series of mistakes. Hardly earth-shattering, but it clicked with me, and my stress level instantly went down. It was the first time I understood that you never actually get it right...you just get quicker at correcting your screw ups.

More than one perspective is almost always a good thing.

Albravo,

You've read my book and we have discussed the school solution required to pass the test. Cary, MTV, CFOT, Jughead, and other instructors on here will have better suggestions for passing the test.

It is unfortunate, especially with older students, that the schools have chosen the harder to learn method of landing. The 1.3 to the fence makes the roundout necessary and the roundout makes cutting power necessary and now we have lost an important altitude reduction control, the throttle, when we really could make good use of it. You have noticed how helpful and necessary throttle is to get back down softly from a balloon. Gravity thrust, so useful in the mountains, is an unrelenting bitch on landing. And the school solution has us starting from so high.

All that said, listen to Cary and CFOT. Our Practical Test Standard now says, "no more than 1.3 Vso on the approach." Make sure you don't get going too fast as gravity thrust will not go away until we can get the nose up a bit. Hanging on the prop in ground effect, CFOT's hover taxi, is a good drill to see the attitude you need to land Be sure to put the centerline, or middle of the landing zone, between your legs and not under the prop. When you level off, give it some time. It takes a little while for the gravity thrust to bleed off at closed throttle. When it does bleed off and the airplane has started to mush and you have begun the flair, keep coming back on the elevator. If you aren't touching down and you think you will stall too high, add some power. Power can save a balloon or flairing too high. Make it a soft field landing, if you get lost.

Walking the rudders dynamically and proactively to maintain longitudinal alignment helps with any airplane, not just tailwheel. Don't develop the bad habit of making shallow coordinated turns to stay lined up on final. Use the rudder to maintain alignment and the aileron to keep the wing level or banked into any crosswind. Absolutely necessary in your crosswinds, this rub your tummy while patting your head (sideslip) technique will also help in no wind (level wing) conditions.

Also use the throttle as much as necessary to mitigate gust spread and shear problems on final. When the sink starts, put the throttle in more than you need and then adjust. When the updraft takes you too high on the glide angle, reduce throttle more than you need and then adjust. In rough air doing so will keep you ahead of the airplane. This also make possible the full benefit of those wonderful Fowler flaps.

Your instructor, I am sure, is covering all this stuff. He knows the examiner and is your best bet to get you your ticket. There are close airspeed and altitude tolerances because numbers on gauges are objective and easy to judge. However, within those tolerances, go as fast as you can get away with on takeoff and as slow as you can get away with on landing and things will work out well.

Hammer made a good point, but we aren't there. You are. Good luck.

Contact

Don't be so hard on yourself. At 24 hours you are doing great. Nuance will come.

+1 for the low approach. As soon as you get that bastard ballast out of the right seat you will figure it out lickety split.

toodles

Here's my two cents.

First off where are you looking when you get just above the runway? Should be WAAAY down the runway to the infinity point, like those pictures of the long roads with the power lines on both sides, you see the power lines go to one point on the horizon, that's where you should be looking. Nine times out of ten when a student screws up a landing he was looking to close in front of the plane.

You DONT flare, you just bring the plane in at VREF, lock your target in your windshield, once you're a few feet above the runway change your sight picture to the infinity point way way down the runway and just try to hold the plane a couple inches off the runway as long as you can.

Also pretend there is a ratchet on the yoke, once you pull it back you can't out it forward, just wait a second if you balloon a little for her to settle, if you need a little more cushion burp in a little power.

As far as ballooning or mis-judging my flare, I find when that happens its because I'm not looking down towards the end of the runway, or as NineThreeKilo said, off into infinity.
Don't kick yourself at all. If it's any consolation, I felt like I'd never get landings down.

Something you might try sometime just for practice is add some power in the flare then see if you can hold it just off the runway while you slow flight it down towards the end. Just don't go too far before actually landing.

Lots to chew on. Thanks.

Cary, I'm definitely hotter than 1.3 Vso.

I'm flying a 172 M model. Here is how a typical circuit looks. I launch and climb out at Vy, close to 90 knots. When i level off at 2000' AGL on the crosswind leg I pull power back to about 2100 rpm. As I approach the turn to base I put in 20 degrees of flaps, pull throttle back to 1500 and trim for 70 knots. I hold 70 most of the way in, though in truth after I turn final and add the remaining flaps I rarely look at the ASI. If I'm high I go back to idle quickly after the turn to final, otherwise I get a bit closer before I chop the power I try and keep the runway locked in one position on my windscreen but the typical lift and sink usually means it bounces around a bit. The nice thing about trees at the end of the runway, at 70 knots I know if I clear those trees with a bit of room, I'll usually be in good shape at the end of the runway.

My eyes are definitely at the end of the runway. It is a 2400' runway, so not so far away that I can't see it.

I really think it is just a matter of more repetition now. I used to have a problem with too much, too fast on the roundout, coupled with a tendency to push the nose back down after I pulled it too high. Now that is stable and I can even play with it a bit. Repetition bred familiarity. My instructor uses the term 'time dilation' and it is very accurate. When i first had control into the approach and we rose or sunk I found I couldn't stay concentrated... I was overwhelmed by unfamiliar stimulus and when you tell yourself there is no time to think, it is already too late.

I recall exactly the same thing the first time I jumped out of an airplane. I remember telling myself 'jump one thousand, arch one thousand, check one thousand' but when I jumped it was just a whirlwind and my wits didn't rejoin me until I was floating down under the chute.

Tomorrow's forecast is for clear and calm. I'm going to trust my instincts and ask for another day in the circuit. Time dilation. Slow it down and chew on it.

Wow, 2000 agl pattern, 90 kt climb, not pulling power until base....and it's a 2400' strip? With trees? ....you might want to consider Hammer's advice.

CFOT wrote:Wow, 2000 agl pattern, 90 kt climb, not pulling power until base....and it's a 2400' strip? With trees? ....you might want to consider Hammer's advice.

+1 Find a different instructor.

Albravo,

Is your pattern altitude 2,000 Above Ground Level or Measured Above Sea Level? One thousand AGL is too high, but what is popular nowdays. Two thousand AGL would be twice as bad.

If he instructor is making you get into a position that you have to generally close the throttle while high on final, you are having to make forced landings. Good practice, but mean to a beginner for normal circuits. By using a higher pitch attitude on final, we can make the throttle control glide slope all the way down. This is a huge advantage. Now elevator can be just the airspeed control. When we close the throttle, the elevator becomes both the speed and the altitude/glideslope control. This is confusing because up elevator causes a slower descent most of the way down and then causes a faster descent when we slow and when we definitely don't want a faster descent. If he won't let you use the throttle on the normal approach, make him let you mount spoilers on the wings.

Hang in there and have fun.

Contact

Keep going up. One day the light will come on. Lots of students get to solo and quit. You're doing fine.

CFOT wrote:Wow, 2000 agl pattern, 90 kt climb, not pulling power until base....and it's a 2400' strip? With trees? ....you might want to consider Hammer's advice.

2k at a 90kt climb and not starting down till base, is this something the OP does, or something his CFI told him to do, it sounds like a set up for a bad landing, I don't even fly a 2k downwind in turboprops.

Standard issue is, 1k AGL downwind, abeam the numbers cut the power and start down,

45 degrees from the threshold, turn base, should be about 500AGL ish.

Final cross the numbers at vref, should have they stall horn chirping on and off as you're crossing the threshold.

Damn, sorry everyone. Circuit is 1000' AGL, 1200' ASL. I knew that yesterday, not sure where 2000' came from.

Today was my best day ever. I had the plane for 2 hours instead of the usual 1 so I was amenable to a quick trip up to the practise area and some slow flight training with the instructor. We did a couple circuits together and then he sent me off on my own, first to the practise area for drills then back into the circuit. They typically send students solo after some dual instruction for the first three trips, then it is a cold solo from pre-flight to post.

I think it was a combination of benign weather, some advice from here and some from my instructor but everything in the landing sequence felt much slower today. The first two landings with the instructor were a touch flat but I was proud of all the landings I did by myself.

Taking off and heading for the practise area by myself was nothing short of gleeful. I checked a couple times to make sure my mic wasn't stuck on because I was humming and chuckling like a fool. There is no masking the quality of your singing voice with an intercom and a good set of noise cancelling headsets! It really helps that the practise area is right over one of my favourite hunting/fishing/hiking/motorcycling playgrounds because I feel like I'm discovering the area all over again.

In honor of Contact, I spent 5 minutes practising dutch rolls, then flying with trim and rudder instead of the yoke. I practised steep turns for a bit then slips to lose altitude on the way back to join the circuit.

I was somewhat discombobulated entering the circuit at altitude rather than climbing out off the runway and that reinforced for me the value of repetition and checklists. Soon it felt just like a regular circuit and I was pleased with the landing

I'm taking tomorrow off but fly again Monday at 8am. Supposed to be beautiful weather again.

Did I sound frustrated yesterday? I was, but I am LOVING today. Thanks all!

Congratulations.


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Good job Allen! Glad to here its coming together for you.
David