I am thinking about getting my license and a floatplane. I have a remote cabin that is only accessible by floatplane outside of snowmobile season. It is very close to town (31 air km from town, 40 km by snowmobile, 170 km by canoe (with 13 portages!). Chartering aircraft can be difficult and is always very expensive. I have always had an interest in aviation (probably 1000+ hours as a passenger in small aircraft between personal and work). My concern is having enough time & resources to be able to safely commit.

Here are a couple of questions I am looking for opinions on:

1) Can I reasonably expect to be fairly safe flying floats as a low time pilot (of course picking fair weather, right aircraft, etc)? What if I am only flying seasonally? I do not have much interest in flying on ski's as I know how hard it is on airframes (I have a snowmobile for that).

2) Is a recreational license sufficient or would more instructional hours be reasonable?

3) Aircraft: I seem to be partial to something like a Rebel, but realize that I likely would be better off with something with more useful load (800-900lbs on floats). Otherwise I would likely be running near gross weight a lot of the time. I presume I would get better handling (and safety performance) using something a bit bigger. My lake isn't much more than 3000' so I want something that gets in the air fairly quickly. I have flown out of there in a 185 on amphibs and I am not a fan of how much lake that needs.

4) Any thoughts on co-ownership? There are a couple of others in town that might be interested. I am leary of the logistics of co-ownership though....how do you balance liability, maintenance, insurance, and future buy-outs when a partner wants out?

So do I pull the trigger and invest a pile of time and money, or do I buy an argo and a couple of cheap boats and try to get to the cabin the hard way?

Other much wiser than I will weight in on this I'm sure. I'll I will say is GO FOR IT "wet runway ops" are more fun than you can possibly imagine until you've tried it and then it get even better.

Go for it!! Flying is addictive!! Float flying is even worse!! LOL Your choice of a Rebel is, in my opinion, a great choice. It's what I currently fly and they are a great all around aircraft. Very roomy interior, almost seems as big as my 172 with the rear seat removed. If you are able to go on straight floats, even better. There was one listed recently in Canada for a very good price, and I think it was on floats. Buy it and go get your ticket punched.

Actually, I just had a gentleman fly over from Kenya to spend a couple of days looking over my Rebel as he is very 'keen' on getting one. I have one that is nearly finished for sale and he is interested in buying it if he can get the import/export issues worked out. He currently flies an O-550 powered 182 and was very impressed with my flying Rebel.

As for the Argo, I had one for many years, 8-wheeled version and also had tracks for winter time use. They are also a great machine, but you need to keep up with the maintenance on them. Only downside is, they are slow, very rough riding, and noisy. Probably no more noisy that an aircraft, but the engine and gearbox whine gets old.

SubArcticGuy wrote:I am thinking about getting my license and a floatplane. I have a remote cabin that is only accessible by floatplane outside of snowmobile season. It is very close to town (31 air km from town, 40 km by snowmobile, 170 km by canoe (with 13 portages!). Chartering aircraft can be difficult and is always very expensive. I have always had an interest in aviation (probably 1000+ hours as a passenger in small aircraft between personal and work). My concern is having enough time & resources to be able to safely commit.

Here are a couple of questions I am looking for opinions on:

1) Can I reasonably expect to be fairly safe flying floats as a low time pilot (of course picking fair weather, right aircraft, etc)? What if I am only flying seasonally? I do not have much interest in flying on ski's as I know how hard it is on airframes (I have a snowmobile for that).

2) Is a recreational license sufficient or would more instructional hours be reasonable?

3) Aircraft: I seem to be partial to something like a Rebel, but realize that I likely would be better off with something with more useful load (800-900lbs on floats). Otherwise I would likely be running near gross weight a lot of the time. I presume I would get better handling (and safety performance) using something a bit bigger. My lake isn't much more than 3000' so I want something that gets in the air fairly quickly. I have flown out of there in a 185 on amphibs and I am not a fan of how much lake that needs.

4) Any thoughts on co-ownership? There are a couple of others in town that might be interested. I am leary of the logistics of co-ownership though....how do you balance liability, maintenance, insurance, and future buy-outs when a partner wants out?

So do I pull the trigger and invest a pile of time and money, or do I buy an argo and a couple of cheap boats and try to get to the cabin the hard way?

If you can afford it, I'd say go for it. Are there any flying schools in Fort Smith? To answer your questions...

1. I think so. I went straight from getting my license to getting my float rating to flying around in my own floatplane. There's no reason, except maybe insurance, that you can't do the whole licensing process in a floatplane, and there used to be guys that did exactly that. Get trained up well.

2. A recreational license is probably sufficient but few guys get it because realistically the PPL won't take any more time to get and won't have the limitations of a recreational license. It takes a few hours to learn how to properly fly an airplane, usually more that the minimum PPL requirement and even once you're licensed it's just the start of the next phase of learning.

3. I don't know the Rebel, but if it carries enough weight to fulfill your mission it's probably a fine place to start Have a look at insurance rates for new float pilots, you may want to start in a plane where you can afford to self-insure and the Rebel may be exactly that.

4. With the right partner, co-ownership is an excellent route. With the wrong one I've heard it's no fun at all. I co-own my plane and it's been great. We have similar ideas about usage and maintenance and we get along well. It halves the fixed costs and the plane gets more use which is great too.

Don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like you are trying to get by cheap. It does not take long to learn to fly. Flying safely is a completely different story. Lots of pilots only fly 20-40 hours a year some even less. This works sometimes if they had a lot of hours when they first started as a base. Now if you can figure how to get 100-200 hours a year when the ice is out you will most likely do well. That is a lot of flying and weather can take out 1/2 of the flying days. So if you are going to fly plan to change out to wheels/skis and keep flying through the winter so you develop the skills to be a good/safe pilot. Ski landings do not have to be any rougher than floats as a matter of fact they often can be much easier on the plane. Just get a PPL and spin training. Fly as much as you can to develop the right skill set. Despite all the hype from aviation companies you can't buy your way into safe flying, you need time and training. In todays world experimental aircraft are often not that great of a deal when compared to a certified on. Best bang for the buck it join a flying club with low hour rates or buy a plane with a partner or two and fly for 1-2 hundred hours a year for a few years. You will have a much better understanding of the task you are asking about. Learning to fly is a great adventure but it does take a LOT OF TIME!!! Also look into the price of float insurance for a low time pilot.
DENNY

One important aspect of getting your pilot certificate is reading the rules and regulations closely. From our own guidelineshere, which you supplied the correct "registration keyword" for:

Membership
Backcountrypilot.org is for pilots. Prospective pilots are welcome to read to their heart's content, but discussion is required to be of a nature related to piloting, maintaining, or building manned aircraft. If you wish to join the discussion by posting, it is expected that you have at least a student pilot certificate and are actively taking instruction, or are a certificated A&P mechanic.

We used to get guys asking about buying their first 206 and why should they choose that over a 182, and then later in the thread after people had used their time to give well-reasoned advice, the OP would reveal they had never actually flown an airplane or taken a lesson.

But it's pretty dead around here, so carry on.

I’d say find a experienced float plane instructor and get a few intro lessons first

Ask him what he thinks of your natural skills and judgement, float flying I’d say requires a bit more natural judgement than other types of flying due to the dynamic nature of where you’re landing

Ask the instructor also about where you’d put your plane, what you’d need to be able to keep it at your place, remember float planes are trying to sink half the time, amphibs are trying to sink all the time, also make sure this body of water is suitable for the plane

When you do your training I’d also make sure you get night and instrument training, do this in your own plane, some folks will wrongly say “just don’t fly at night or in weather” but Mr Murphy is a asshole sometimes lol Also doing this extra dual instruction in your plane will help with insurance and help you be a better stick in that plane

For the plane, I don’t have any experience with that airframe, a few general things I can say
Can it burn auto fuel? This can come in great handy

Does it have at least a good attitude indicator and interior and exterior lights, make sure it does (that Murphy guy again)

The big one, to amphib or not to amphib, more risks and a little more maintenance, higher purchase price, and a little less useful load on the amphib, but being able to land at a normal airport for fuel, maintenance, bad weather, and easily keep it in a hangar when not on the water is very very handy

Maybe also look at some of the PA18 clones

Next call a few insurance shops and see what they’ll quote

For partners, others have already said it, me personally, I wouldn’t do it

I soloed on floats so it’s doable.

Couple things, your sled riding time gives you a few legs up for ski ops

Got any skiff time? Cheapest float training you can get would be a summer with a 16 foot Lund or like and 30hp. If you don’t like it or it’s too expensive or it sits in the yard collecting leaves and rainwater then an airplane is not for you.

You mention the expense of charter flights, ha ha haa, I’m sorry owning an airplane is not for you. Really.

Lastly, as Zane mentioned in the TOS, go get an hour of wet duel, then come back with more questions.

Rocket

rocket wrote:I soloed on floats so it’s doable.

Couple things, your sled riding time gives you a few legs up for ski ops

Got any skiff time? Cheapest float training you can get would be a summer with a 16 foot Lund or like and 30hp. If you don’t like it or it’s too expensive or it sits in the yard collecting leaves and rainwater then an airplane is not for you.

You mention the expense of charter flights, ha ha haa, I’m sorry owning an airplane is not for you. Really.

Lastly, as Zane mentioned in the TOS, go get an hour of wet duel, then come back with more questions.

Rocket

Per the cost of charter



OP says he’s got over 1,000hrs as a pax

So based on those rates, that’s between $650,000.00 - $870,000.00 and that’s factoring zero standby time

Not saying airplanes are cheap, but 1,000hrs of charter ain’t cheap ether

Factoring in all my training I personally paid for, which far exceeded what OP needs, my 185 amphib which I’d wager is more than a 2 seat rebel, what I’ve spent on gas and mx over the years, off the cuff I don’t think I’ve hit $650k

Thanks for all the great feedback...To clarify on some points:

- I have spent lots of time in the front seat as a px (grew up in aviation and years of wildlife surveys). Countless flights on wheels, floats, and skiis. Lots of conversations with PIC's regarding weather, conditions, docking, winds etc. But it is all different than flying. My biggest concern with starting to fly is to be able to do it safely and what is a reasonable number of hours to expect to become and stay proficient.

- Amphibs are a no-go for me. There is too much cost, too much complexity, and too little performance (I have 3000' of water and in my limited experience in a c185 on amphibs it uses too much lake for my comfort), Part of the reason I am in this decision-making process is that the Otter I loved to use to get to the cabin did a wheels down water landing when landing at my cabin...thankfully everybody was okay, but the Otter will be off to new owners after the rebuild.

- Of course cost is a concern, but so is lifestyle and convenience. Right now I have to pay as much as $1600 for a weekend trip for two to the cabin (so $3200 for a family trip). That is fine for once or twice a year. Having a plane doesn't save money at all, but it means I can do a family trip every month from May - October....that would be $19,200 if I was chartering (which I certainly cannot afford). The option of going for a day of fishing, berry picking, or just exploring becomes a possibility.

- I have a decent amount of time running small boats....though I still think one of the most stressful parts of float flying would be coasting into the dock when the winds aren't favorable. That's one of the reasons I loved the Otter...pilot could use beta and I could be line handling on the float when docking in bad winds or moving water.

I think next steps as suggested will be to price out insurance for low time pilots and possibly start some co-ownership conversations. Provided I get past that step, then I need to start the more fun task of trying to find a suitable aircraft (I will wait until flight school before starting more threads on that so I don't upset Zzz anymore ).

If you have any leads on good insurance providers for low time float pilots I am all ears.

Thanks!

SubArcticGuy wrote:If you have any leads on good insurance providers for low time float pilots I am all ears.

Thanks!

There are only a handful of aircraft insurance underwriters. Based on conversation with my broker none are offering good rates to beginning float pilots. When I started float flying in my 180 the insurance was $1800/year. It's gone up every year since even though I've flown a lot and without incident. The broker told me if I was starting out now in the same plane I'd be more like $10,000/year if I wanted hull coverage. That's why I say look into a float plane that you can afford to self insure, something like a Piper Pacer.

Insurance seems to be mentioned a lot in this thread. I have not seen one mention of the fact that it is not required legally in the USA. Just wanted to be sure the OP was aware of this.

49_sedan wrote:Insurance seems to be mentioned a lot in this thread. I have not seen one mention of the fact that it is not required legally in the USA. Just wanted to be sure the OP was aware of this.

Over 10 years ago I had purchased a Champ on floats to get into seaplane flying. As a beginner SES rated pilot (got my rating in the Champ), my insurance started out around $4,000 ($3700 if I remember correctly) through Avemco. I was able to remove the seaplane part of the insurance at the end of float flying season and was given a partial refund. So, at the end of the year it was actually less than half of the original cost due to only requiring the seaplane coverage for 3-4 months. Just and FYI, I got a quote for my Murphy Rebel with straight floats and it was about the same price as I was paying 10 years ago. I have not put it on floats yet so can't say the exact cost. I have only 300+ hours of float time so that my still be a factor.

There are several states where insurance is required. I am in Minnesota and you can't legally renew your yearly state required registration without insurance. Heck, I have to include the city whom I rent a hangar from on my insurance policy in order to rent a hangar. Granted, if the plane is listed as 'unairworthy' they will send you a registration, but it states not legal to fly.

I wasn’t aware that there was a state requirement for insurance in Minnesota. I wonder what other states have such a requirement?

49_sedan wrote:Insurance seems to be mentioned a lot in this thread. I have not seen one mention of the fact that it is not required legally in the USA. Just wanted to be sure the OP was aware of this.

The original poster is in Fort Smith, Northwest Territories, Canada. We only require basic liability insurance here, that's why I've been saying to consider self insurance (no hull insurance). I've just brought it up because it's one of the things that seems to catch people dreaming of airplane ownership, particularly floatplanes, by surprise.

WWhunter wrote:

49_sedan wrote:Insurance seems to be mentioned a lot in this thread. I have not seen one mention of the fact that it is not required legally in the USA. Just wanted to be sure the OP was aware of this.

Over 10 years ago I had purchased a Champ on floats to get into seaplane flying. As a beginner SES rated pilot (got my rating in the Champ), my insurance started out around $4,000 ($3700 if I remember correctly) through Avemco. I was able to remove the seaplane part of the insurance at the end of float flying season and was given a partial refund. So, at the end of the year it was actually less than half of the original cost due to only requiring the seaplane coverage for 3-4 months. Just and FYI, I got a quote for my Murphy Rebel with straight floats and it was about the same price as I was paying 10 years ago. I have not put it on floats yet so can't say the exact cost. I have only 300+ hours of float time so that my still be a factor.

There are several states where insurance is required. I am in Minnesota and you can't legally renew your yearly state required registration without insurance. Heck, I have to include the city whom I rent a hangar from on my insurance policy in order to rent a hangar. Granted, if the plane is listed as 'unairworthy' they will send you a registration, but it states not legal to fly.

How can a state require anything for a plane, isn’t that a federal matter?

Also what happens if they notice you didn’t buy their state sticker for your plane? Wouldn’t it be their burden of proof that the plane was there over however many days?

Seems outside of you telling them how long it’s been there, that’s going to be nearly impossible to prove to the point of being legally unenforceable

93K,
They know the aircraft is there via your FFA registration which needs your legal address for registration. That way they KNOW the plane is there in the state and require you to register it with the state. There is no longer a 'sticker' as in the past. They send you another registration very similar to the federal registration. If you state 'unairworthy' they will still send you a registration card with a statement on it saying no legal to fly. Granted, there are a lot of aircraft in the state flying without insurance from private strips. But legally, is it worth the few hundred dollars for at least being covered by liability insurance.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the city that I lease a hangar will not allow an aircraft to be hangared there without insurance and they require to be listed also.

The yearly fee for the registration is $100 for mine, but if it is unairworthy the fee is waived. I actually have two of the renewal sitting right beside me that need to be sent in.

WWhunter wrote:93K,
They know the aircraft is there via your FFA registration which needs your legal address for registration. That way they KNOW the plane is there in the state and require you to register it with the state. There is no longer a 'sticker' as in the past. They send you another registration very similar to the federal registration. If you state 'unairworthy' they will still send you a registration card with a statement on it saying no legal to fly. Granted, there are a lot of aircraft in the state flying without insurance from private strips. But legally, is it worth the few hundred dollars for at least being covered by liability insurance.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the city that I lease a hangar will not allow an aircraft to be hangared there without insurance and they require to be listed also.

The yearly fee for the registration is $100 for mine, but if it is unairworthy the fee is waived. I actually have two of the renewal sitting right beside me that need to be sent in.

Gotcha

Lots of planes registered in Delaware and Utah that are rarely/never there, guess it’s low hanging fruit for them and since it’s $100 most don’t bother to tell them to kick rocks

Wonder where the $100 actually ends up

If it went something honorable and good, I’d wager asking for a yearly donation for young eagle flights or keeping grass strips mowed, they’d probably get people who send in even more, for me if they can prove my skywagon was ever hangared in the 6”x6” PO Box it’s registered at I’d love the photo lol