I'm a current Taylorcraft owner (read, two people, zero luggage) looking to get a Pacer for my next airplane. With 2 people and a medium load of camping gear, water, and a decent fuel load...what length of airstrip would be about the minimum in the summertime (lower density altitudes, not mountains)? I'd like to know real-world numbers so that I can make an educated decision on the Pacer.

Understand that there were a few different engines used in the Pacer. The engine will make a significant difference.

MTV

While a 150/160 HP pacer is great light 1-2 passengers light fuel and no gear. Its performance decreases dramatically with weight.

2 passengers and full fuel +gear 2000 pound gross weight makes for fast landings and sedated take of and climb performance.

It simply runs out of wing. There is no comparison to a cub or 12 at the same weight.

It is a great affordable plane just do not expect to much when loaded.

I loved my pacer. It was 150 horse. Went to Idaho 3 times and never ceased to amaze me. It's not a super cub but is a 3rd the price and faster and more roomy and still quite capable. Plus if you want to change anything there is a list of stc's a mile long

Mines 180 HP and 1,125 dry. Wife, big dog and gear, 20 gals of fuel, call it 1,700 lbs, we got out of Minam and Red's (3,500 ft elevation) in under 1,000 ft on warm August mornings last summer. That's with a 76 x 60 sensenich prop that gave about 130 mph cruise on 26s. With the ground adjustable sensenich, it's a beast. So I'd guess if it's a light airplane with a 160 and the GA prop you could duplicate my runway performance.

As mentioned, weight really matters with the short wing. Just me and 1/2 fuel, 250 ft at sea level takeoffs are possible.

It's not a Super Cub, but you'll actually get where you want to go while carrying stuff you want to take.

How short a place do you need to get into?

I fly a 160-hp pacer with a 76x56 prop and extended wings. I grew up flying in my dad's pacer and got my PPL in a pacer.

It does great for two people a dog, and camping gear. We regularly fly out of backcountry strips all over the PNW. I feel that it's one of the most underrated backcountry aircraft someone can buy, especially since they are less than half the price of other aircraft. Sure, it's a shorter wing than a Super Cub, but you have more room for gear, a faster cruise and with the extended wings you can get into some pretty short strips and haul a considerable load. The extended wing makes a massive difference on take-off and landing performance but also cruise.

With just me and half fuel at sea level, I am off the ground in less than 300'. If I am loaded and a pretty decent DA, I don't go into anything less than 800-1000 ft in length. I land right around 48 MPH and cruise at 120 mph.

Pacers do teach you how to fly taildraggers quickly. You have to fly it all the way to the hangar and really use your feet to keep it straight on take off and landings. It will bite you if you are not careful.

I heard someone call it a poor man's Cessna 180 once. Seems like a pretty accurate description.

how extended are your wings?

Pacer_ar wrote:I heard someone call it a poor man's Cessna 180 once. Seems like a pretty accurate description.

Can confirm.
We had a 150hp 22/20 with a host of STCs - Sullivan extended wings(great mod), Dodge 30.5 gal tanks, VGs, etc.
Kitted out as such with a decent load at 3-4k DA I was in and out of 800-1k ft no problem. Really load it up and at 4-5k DA it'd take 1500 ft. Solo with a couple hours of fuel 400-500 ft. I also cruised closer to 110 mph.
We sold it when we bought the 180 - no regrets as it's a considerably more capable craft, but no argument we could have 3 pacers for the 1 180.
If you "need" supercub or 180 performance, you need a supercub or 180. But - the Pacer will do most of what they can do at a fraction of the price. Gravel bar hopping - I'd say lean towards more STOL than the Pacer. 2 people camping at charted strips, definitely Pacer.

I like my Pacer, but...

There's just something about that feeling of having too little wing that I will never get over. When it's light, especially solo, it's not as noticeable, but even at a couple hundred shy of max gross it's sinky as hell when you want to approach at speeds slow enough to really do short work. And it takes some learning with how to manage running out of elevator.

THere's no denying the roominess and utility with the rear seat out, which makes me believe the Bushmaster is the ultimate light plane in that class...I call it the 3-seat class. Solves the wing issue, the short coupled behavior, the pitch limitations... really would love to have one.

Are you stuck on getting a Pacer? Other options might be available, Heck my son put a Sportsman's cuff on the 172, Airglas nose fork with bigger tires, overhauled and repitched the prop for short field work. Totally amazed at how it transformed the plane into a quasi STOL type. How about an experimental? Few options that generally outperform most certified planes. Just an idea..

The only thing that makes a pacer a rock star is burning 3,000 gallons of fuel, in a year. Otherwise stick to 2,000 feet strips and enjoy the ride, nothing wrong with that.

A bore prop, big tires, VG’s and all the other gutchy bits guys brag about on the internet can help, can help a lot, but not if you don’t put in the stick time first.

And don’t forget float ops, only one other thing better in the wet! Edo 2000’s and an 82 incher. Again steep learning curve, had to laugh at a handful of pros who couldn’t get mine off the water-at all , but once you have it dialed in just a touch longer then a cub only 15-20kts faster.

Ditto skis!

Primary (honest) use: Departing a 1200' grass strip so that I can look out the window from 1200' AGL in Central Wisconsin. (That's currently what the Taylorcraft is for, so that mission is accomplished.)

Likely Extended-use: Departing from a 1200' grass strip (or the local 3400' blacktop) for our typical weekend destinations: Northern Wisconsin, Door County, and Mackinac Island, MI. Complete with wife, two suitcases, and a 12-pak of beer (going up) and local beer/wine (coming home). Plus the occasional cache of antiques... The Taylorcraft is not quite up to the task, ie. the suitcase problem.

Anticipated Extra Bonus Use: Same 1200' grass strip, plus me and son or friend and CAMPING GEAR! Destinations...Northern Wisconsin, NE Iowa, and Upper Peninsula Michigan grass strips. Down here in the 'wilds' of Wisconsin (we do have little black bears and wolves *gasp*) I have the benefit our low initial altitude, although we will get those balmy July/August days where the PA can get up into the upper 2000'+ range. We even had a 3200' PA day last year where the Taylorcraft made a 1900' grass departure a little exciting about 200' before TO decision time...

Note: Alaska is on the bucket list but I'll save the gravel bars for the Super Cubs. I would like to get some stick-time with the Tac Aero guys however as a mid-life crisis treat for myself. I'll rent THEIR airplanes. I'm all for the basic mods appropriate for Wisconsin: VG's, 8.50" 'bushwheels' and maybe some wing-tips. Or just give me the tires and the bigger motor, right? I’d just like to fly to Alaska and a few other Western destinations just for the experience but I’d like to do it with luggage and maybe even a friend AND luggage so the Pacer is the bee’s knees as far as I’m concerned. Well, with my budget and tastes anyways.

I got 8.00 tires on the Taylorcraft and not only do the tires look 'right' but they really make a difference over the 6" tires they replaced when it comes to smoothing out the lumps. The Taylorcraft came with 'extended wings' from the factory, but the lack of flaps really can be an issue when coming over the white pines up North. My passengers prefer flaps over side-slipping (my wife said so). Besides, you can't side-slip OUT of an airstrip. I'm looking for VG's at some point for the T'craft for that little extra margin of safety when flirting with any sub-56mph approach speed on final. The airplane stalls at 43-ish (that’s 37kts) and 1.3 x Vs = Vref 56mph. It will float just fine at 50mph all the way down on a calm day but…well…we all watch those STOL videos…

Midfield Aviation in Caldwell ID has a tricked-out Pacer for sale.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?ca ... e=aircraft

Joe Dory, who owns Midfield, owns a very tricked-out Pacer himself,
and would probably be a good person to talk to about Pacer ops.

At your elevations and field lengths, a pacer will do everything you're looking to do and then some. Actually, you want a PA-22/20 conversion. Wide Univair gear, more mods available.

Geoffb wrote:At your elevations and field lengths, a pacer will do everything you're looking to do and then some. Actually, you want a PA-22/20 conversion. Wide Univair gear, more mods available.

Seeing that I'm 55 now (can't believe it) a Pacer likely would be my 'forever plane' (unless I won the lottery, in which case we need to start another thread about Stinson Reliants, Howards, Gypsy Moths, and Curtiss Biplanes). That being said, is there any real difference value-wise/resale of a modded, regular PA-20 vs. making a 22 into a 20 with the tailwheel conversion? It seems these days that bushplanes, tailwheel conversions, STOL, etc are all the rage. I guess it's all about quality of modification workmanship and what a buyer is looking for.

Best-case is I would keep the Taylorcraft, seeing that it wasn't really very expensive, and look for a good deal on a nice Pacer as the adventure/travel airplane. I know, first-world problems. Pacers and Vagabonds are a big deal here in our local EAA Chapter. There's two guys (both A&P's) that have multiple Pacers and Vagabonds in various states of completion as well as flying (and a J3 that just needs some hangar space to be put together). I couldn't be in a better place 'Pacer-wise' for both spare parts, advice, and maintenance. I might even be able to trade some elbow grease with these various projects for a better deal. This forum has proved to be invaluable as well!

Oh, and when did they come out with the metal spar that I read about in the Stewart wing-tip mod?

braol wrote:Oh, and when did they come out with the metal spar that I read about in the Stewart wing-tip mod?

Pacers and tripacers have always had metal spars. Stewart wingtip mod has you install a short aluminum spar extension and replaces the original wooden wing tip bow with an artfully bent piece of EMT from the local electrical supply house. I was pleased with the performance improvement the Stewart tips provided for my old pacer.

braol wrote:

Geoffb wrote:At your elevations and field lengths, a pacer will do everything you're looking to do and then some. Actually, you want a PA-22/20 conversion. Wide Univair gear, more mods available.

is there any real difference value-wise/resale of a modded, regular PA-20 vs. making a 22 into a 20 with the tailwheel conversion?

There were incremental improvements to the Pacer platform in the later years, of which the PA-22 was all that remained in the late 50s IIRC. From 55 or 56 onward, the seats are individual units that can be adjusted independently. The later panels were taller and had that signature asymmetric hump on the pilot's side. A more knowledgeable Pacer historian could tell you more.

I have modded my '56 fuselage quite a bit: seaplane doors, revised fuel system (Trimmer), shoulder harness anchor points moved rearward, structure for exposed tailpost, gear beef-up, fueling step, weld-on float fittings, full Steve's Aircraft skylight, Svenn'/Dakota Cub wing tip mod, and a completely new panel that does away with the hump. The Pacer has a long list of legal certificated mods available, it's actually a pretty cool ecosystem.

Keep your trigger finger outside the guard until you find one that has the good stuff already done, otherwise you'll end up like me—misplaced optimism that results in your plane stripped down to bare fuselage, welding and grinding on it, cursing the guys with flying airplanes on a sunny day.

Zzz wrote:Keep your trigger finger outside the guard until you find one that has the good stuff already done, otherwise you'll end up like me—misplaced optimism that results in your plane stripped down to bare fuselage, welding and grinding on it, cursing the guys with flying airplanes on a sunny day.

It sounds like you need a homebuilt project

Battson wrote:

Zzz wrote:Keep your trigger finger outside the guard until you find one that has the good stuff already done, otherwise you'll end up like me—misplaced optimism that results in your plane stripped down to bare fuselage, welding and grinding on it, cursing the guys with flying airplanes on a sunny day.

It sounds like you need a homebuilt project

This is 2018 news.

You want a converted PA-22 for the larger baggage area. Probably more 22/20s flying than original Pacers anyway. PA-22-150s got an extra rib which increased limiting speeds which is nice.

Lot's of them out there with lots of mods. Keep your eyes open, one will turn up.