Barnstormer wrote:....As I always do no matter where I am, I listen on the radio freq while the plane is warming up. Didn't hear anything. When it came time to depart I made my radio call to the area traffic including which direction my turnout would be......
.... if you have a radio on board at least listen to it, and better yet let local traffic know where you are when you are doing pattern work or maneuvering.....
...please stop announcing your aircraft manufacturer and call sign. Neither do anyone any good in determining what you are, what you look like, and what speed you are going. Blue and white Stearman actually has value (I know what I'm looking for and approximately how fast it goes- Boeing 123456789 has none- I mean are we talking a B52 bomber or a 747 or what.......

What he said.
What's worse than calling manufacturer & tail number is calling just the tail number.
I don't even say color anymore, just skywagon.
As pointed out, not strictly per the FAR/AIM & AC (s),
but IMHO better more efficient & safer.

"Departing 34" isn't nearly as helpful as "departing 34, left turnout",
or "westbound", or "left closed traffic", or even just "staying in the pattern".

I've noticed that a lot of pilots don't get the "big picture"...
I can't count the times I've been entering the pattern & had someone doing touch-n-go's turn downwind
at just the right (wrong) time to cut me off .
When they could easily extend their upwind leg an extra 30 seconds & make the whole thing a non-event.
Likewise you can plan your arrival to allow for an entry that fits into the flow, instead of disrupting it.

aftCG wrote:I really don't care if you say "blue and yellow Harley Davidson" as long as you add "midfield left downwind, 25, [field name]" and that is where you actually are. I'll find you just fine.

This is my favorite point of the discussion. I don't need to know your color, type, or anything except that you are an aircraft at an altitude/position and traveling in a direction. It lets me determine if you are a factor, and if not now, will you be soon?

If there are several aircraft, then my brain moves to the next level of distinguishing between the unique voice/descriptor and aircraft position.

I never use my tail-number unless I'm talking to a tower or ATC. I think it's a ridiculous way to identify for pilot-to-pilot communications.

I DO use my color and type. "Blue Cessna 170" tells other pilots that unless they're looking at a blue airplane it's not me, and the 170 part gives people some idea of my general speed and performance envelope. You might be talking to someone flying a J-3, or someone in a T-28 Navy...I think it's valuable to know that.

As for radio coms, I think the real issue is that most people talk too much and say too little. Position reports are only of value if they actually communicate your position in a way that another aviator can increase his chances of seeing you. Most position reports do not do that.

I'm forever hearing "Airplane xxx, 10.5 westbound over Yellow Pine for McCall..." That is a complete waste of radio waves and every single backcountry pilot in Idaho and Montana gets to hear it. There have been days it's so bad that I turn my radio off so I don't have to hear the prattle. I guess people heard commercial carriers giving position reports and thought they were supposed to do the same, not realizing that the commercial carriers had a dispatcher who was recording their position as insurance in the event of a forced landing, while all they're doing is polluting the airwaves with information that doesn't help anyone, while simultaneously stepping on traffic that might actually be of value to someone.

Now after you've dropped down into the Middle Fork, announcing that you're ten miles upstream descending for Mahoney IS good information. All the air traffic is squeezed down into a river canyon, and the only people who are going to hear you are people for whom the information is relevant.

Anyone ever been on the wrong frequency? I have...more than once. All my carefully crafted position reports were going out into space without getting to the people who could have used them. Bottom line...don't rely on the radio for information, look out the window, don't make needlessly abrupt maneuvers, turn on all your lights, and cross your fingers.

Good discussion on the use of the radio and reporting. There’s a happy medium for sure with the emphasis being on painting a picture for everyone’s SA. Adsb has brought a new wrinkle to those who simply state type, color, and location. If I’m looking at an adsb target which shows your N number, how am I to correlate your position report with this adsb target when there are more than just your target return? The assumption here is a location that requires adsb. I hear a lot of adsb equipped aircraft using type and color only. That might be ok for the pattern but if you’re transmitting adsb, it might be more relevant to use your N number, especially when away from the pattern. Point being...when you make a report and I am able to correlate it to your adsb target, SA is dramatically improved and we can now spend more time searching for all of the other targets that aren’t squawking. Food for thought.
Mike

Hammer wrote:I'm forever hearing "Airplane xxx, 10.5 westbound over Yellow Pine for McCall..."

I was trained to do that back in the early '90s, along with leaving a flight plan at the desk of the local FBO. It was jungle-drum flight tracking for SAR purposes. If an aircraft didn't arrive as planned, SAR could try to find out the last position report anyone heard on point nine. I recall a few accidents where the last heard position report was used to "narrow" the search area, but they all ended as recovery operations.

You'd think that with the advent of ADS-B, 406 ELTs, Spider Tracks, InReach, SPOT, and PLBs, this would be entirely antiquated now, but it's not . . . entirely. There are probably still folks flying with none of these equipment options, or who figure that if they aren't conscious to turn on the PLB, then it's all over anyway (kinda selfish IMO). It's fair to ask anyone with any above the above-listed equipment on board not to transmit their en route positions. Old habits die hard, I guess.

Most airplanes are going to be equipped with ADS-B and will have ship-to-ship communication if they're line-of-sight and near enough to be of interest/concern. Point 9 gets congested in the high season, and it needs a rest. Of course, a good start would be if guys would chit-chat on 122.75 instead of point 9, but I digress.

CAVU

I only have 20/20 vision and pass the FAA color tests. It is utterly impossible for me to tell what color a plane might be unless the light is just right, the plane is really close, the plane is below me, and the sun is behind me. 'Blue', 'brown', 'red' etc just consumes airtime in nearly every call.

FWIW, I get a lot of value out of aircraft make and model since it tells me shape and performance. Words like "mooney", 'Cirrus', 'skywagon', 'cub', or 'Cessna 150', 'Cessna 210' etc. are unambiguous.

I think those calls that Hammer hates are helpful. 10.5 is where all the traffic is unless they are down in a canyon so it’s helpful to know where someone is and where they are headed.

whee wrote:I think those calls that Hammer hates are helpful. 10.5 is where all the traffic is unless they are down in a canyon so it’s helpful to know where someone is and where they are headed.

Yes...but those people at "10.5 over Yellowpine" could be anywhere in a twenty square mile area and their barometric altitude could be off by hundreds of feet. I don't hear people giving position reports like "Over Winnemucca at 11.5 eastbound for SLC"...so why do it in the backcountry?

Just look out the window and save the radio for congested airspace where people are getting funneled into common flight paths by terrain, and where your signal won't go out for hundreds of miles.

My opinion, of course!

I can see you perspective Hammer. Perhaps I have bad luck but I’ve been too close to other planes too many times in the middle of no where to rely on eyes only.

I’m that guy that would be reporting over Winnemucca and wish others would do the same. A good position report takes 5 seconds so it’s not like the frequency is going to get crowded. But you are right about position accuracy. Drives me crazy when people aren’t accurate. You shouldn’t be reporting over some location unless you are actually there.

On a busy summer day in the Frank there is a shit ton of planes transitioning through the Frank and many of those planes are at 10.5. I’d rather be down in the canyon without a radio than at 10.5 over the Frank.

whee wrote:....I’m that guy that would be reporting over Winnemucca and wish others would do the same. A good position report takes 5 seconds so it’s not like the frequency is going to get crowded.....

The CTAF at my airport is 123.00, it's shared by 2 other local airports-- all of which can be pretty busy on a nice day..
The other common CTAF's around here (122.7, 122.8, 122.9) are the same.
When you can't hardly get in a word edgewise to make a valid position report,
the last thing you need is some dude saying "northbound over Harvey Field at 3000 feet".
Or "20 miles south, inbound to land".
And those kind of pos-reps are usually much wordier.

hotrod180 wrote:The CTAF at my airport is 123.00, it's shared by 2 other local airports-- all of which can be pretty busy on a nice day..
The other common CTAF's around here (122.7, 122.8, 122.9) are the same.
When you can't hardly get in a word edgewise to make a valid position report,
the last thing you need is some dude saying "northbound over Harvey Field at 3000 feet".
Or "20 miles south, inbound to land".
And those kind of pos-reps are usually much wordier.

Only THREE airports sharing a CTAF frequency? Man, that would be wonderful! Around here, there are at least a dozen airports on each of those frequencies... On a nice Saturday or Sunday, all you get is squeal from takeoff to landing, with the occasional "airport 100 miles away" call... Then there's one local airport where several airport denizens have radios in their hangars, and use them to critique the takeoffs and landings of people in the pattern at "their" airport, or just to talk to the pilots about next week's weenie roast... Drives me crazy!

Makes the see and avoid rule seem logical. Controlling the uncontrolled, not so much.

JP256 wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:The CTAF at my airport is 123.00, it's shared by 2 other local airports-- all of which can be pretty busy on a nice day..
The other common CTAF's around here (122.7, 122.8, 122.9) are the same.
When you can't hardly get in a word edgewise to make a valid position report,
the last thing you need is some dude saying "northbound over Harvey Field at 3000 feet".
Or "20 miles south, inbound to land".
And those kind of pos-reps are usually much wordier.

Only THREE airports sharing a CTAF frequency? Man, that would be wonderful! Around here, there are at least a dozen airports on each of those frequencies... On a nice Saturday or Sunday, all you get is squeal from takeoff to landing, with the occasional "airport 100 miles away" call... Then there's one local airport where several airport denizens have radios in their hangars, and use them to critique the takeoffs and landings of people in the pattern at "their" airport, or just to talk to the pilots about next week's weenie roast... Drives me crazy!

I would say that 123.00 is one of the lesser used frequencies on this side of the mountains. But if you're crossing the Cascades eastbound you'll also pick up Wenatchee, Ellensburg, Moses Lake, etc. on the same frequency for a at least a while.

You're also more likely to hear a "hey Bob how's Doreen? Are you still coming over Tuesday? If so bring that battery charger back if you could".

And I don't care if you're sharing a tuna casserole recipe, just throw your location and vector if you don't mind.

I can see Hammers point of view as well but after years of flying in remote Alaska and noticing a few midair’s that were in cruise phase (Lake Clark pass Navajo/206, Palmer Hay Flats 170/172, near wasilla two Cubs etc.)
I want to hear where people are at position/altitude/direction. A good position report like Whee said takes less than 5 seconds. Had time to think about this today while headed to a popular clam digging beach and sand flat called Polly Creek (over two dozen planes on beach) Going and coming there were folks high and low and the frequency was pretty full of reports but for the most part pilots were courteous and accurate. Most seemed to be between 4000’ and 2000’ I never got above 500’ and still had lots of company down low. Had a couple of planes that were pretty close when they overtook me, but brief concise communication allowed us all to find and see each other. But sometimes I do get bugged at the super long winded dissertations some give. They need to try to do that going into ORD, LAX or JFK and watch the fireworks.LOL

PapernScissors wrote:I only have 20/20 vision and pass the FAA color tests. It is utterly impossible for me to tell what color a plane might be unless the light is just right, the plane is really close, the plane is below me, and the sun is behind me. 'Blue', 'brown', 'red' etc just consumes airtime in nearly every call.

FWIW, I get a lot of value out of aircraft make and model since it tells me shape and performance. Words like "mooney", 'Cirrus', 'skywagon', 'cub', or 'Cessna 150', 'Cessna 210' etc. are unambiguous.

I find adding color to a position report to be very helpful in crowded airspace. On a nice day up near the Knik Glacier there can easily be 20 airplanes in the valley, and at least a half dozen or more of them would be Cubs. If a pilot mentions he’s flying a red cub but I see a white one, I’m going to keep looking. Pretty normal to have multiple planes in sight up there, so knowing which one is about to change directions, for example, can be pretty darn helpful.

whee wrote: A good position report takes 5 seconds

Are you giving lattitude and longitude to the hundred thousandths?? Quit hogging the frequency maaaaaaannnn.

Zzz wrote:

whee wrote: A good position report takes 5 seconds

Are you giving lattitude and longitude to the hundred thousandths?? Quit hogging the frequency maaaaaaannnn.

Haha I’m one of those guys! And don’t forget rate of descent if not level! PIREPs every 10miles to ATC is paramount too.

Let's not forget the obligatory "(airport name) Cessna Nxxx taxying from (FBO name) Aviation to the active runway (airport name)."

It's ever so important to announce that you're taxying an airplane that weighs 1/3 as much as a car...never mind that there is no "active runway" at an uncontrolled airport, and chances are fair that any airplane leaving the FBO is heading to whichever end of the runway favors the winds.

I get that people are taught to do senseless things like that...I just wish they hadn't been.

During my helicopter primary training, I went through a beautiful metamorphosis. I could depart/arrive from Honolulu International’s ramp in almost any direction from hover! Having a polite voice and self confident demeanor helps with the tower however as we all know (or soon know). It was a weird sensation not to taxi but, to depart from hover (and join a SID, VFR route, or SAR). After many years “sitting behind a 747” in a Cessna 172 sweating in 90F heat for 30 minutes, wow, what a relief! Sometimes, we would shutdown the engines holding because there were 8 arrivals and 29 departures holding!

Generally it is mind blowing the freedom that helicopters enjoy. But, that incredible freedom (and the residual boost of ego) can bite you too. Situation Awareness is something some folks have trouble grasping. It’s a learning curve of dangerous consequences.

Carry on men...

There are many advantages to working low and off the beaten path whether helicopter, crop duster, or pipeline patrol. Tower is comfortable with you not being conflicting traffic and at uncontrolled you are left alone unless you crowd and talk. Sometimes talking causes much unnecessary distraction for those on the beaten path.