Too close, way too close

Both runways at my place have 65 foot tall trees on three sides. Taking off on the big runway towards the open end puts the departure right into a cross arrival path of a neighboring strip.

Because of this, in addition to my radio calls, I stay on the deck after takeoff until I've cleared the cross arrival path- just in case. Today that paid off.

As I always do no matter where I am, I listen on the radio freq while the plane is warming up. Didn't hear anything. When it came time to depart I made my radio call to the area traffic including which direction my turnout would be.

Just as I cleared the end of the runway (and there were no more trees alongside) a 180 came right over the top of me, about 50' above. Thing is he was well below the glide path altitude he would need to make an approach to the neighboring strip. And he hadn't made any radio calls nor acknowledged mine.

A few minutes later I heard what I believed to probably be him over at Soldotna doing pattern work. I looked his call sign up but it was a plane abandoned down south somewhere. Then just as I entered the mountains I heard him again, this time his full call sign and he was calling every turn coming back to the neighboring strip. Kinda leaves no doubt that he saw how close he had come to me.

Takeaways: folks if you have a radio on board at least listen to it, and better yet let local traffic know where you are when you are doing pattern work or maneuvering. Especially in an area like mine that has dozens and dozens of private strips- and most not on the maps. And keep at a reasonable altitude- don't be running the treetops where you might run into me- literally. And finally, please stop announcing your aircraft manufacturer and call sign. Neither do anyone any good in determining what you are, what you look like, and what speed you are going. Blue and white Stearman actually has value (I know what I'm looking for and approximately how fast it goes- Boeing 123456789 has none- I mean are we talking a B52 bomber or a 747 or what.

Anyway, here is where I was headed today.

That reminds me of what was the closet ever mid air (that I know of anyway...) I had last year, with a crop duster, on an early Sunday morning in a very rural area with few people living there. In other words, I had my guard down. 2-300 AGL, he was climbing to turn onto his next pass, I was climbing from an off airport field landing, IF he saw me I'm sure he wondered where the hell I came from. Point being I guess, even away from major recognized "airports", it can pay to keep our eyeballs peeled, for sure.

It would seem that ADS-B in this situation could come in very handy.

Really low generally keeps one out of traffic problems. Still have to watch for crop dusters and pipeline patrols.

Your Stearman comment reminds me of one that used to fly in the area years ago.. his N number was N737... He would always call Boeing 737 on the radio.. Everyone would be looking for a 737 on final at these little grass strips and wonder what the Stearman was doing in the pattern..[emoji23][emoji849]

Brian


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Glad to be reading about it here Phil, and not in the headlines.

-DP

denalipilot wrote:Glad to be reading about it here Phil, and not in the headlines.

-DP

Amen!

And that's funny about Boeing 737. I can imagine the looks it would get.

Contact, not too many crop dusters or pipeline patrols up here, but I know what you are referring to from living in Texas.

And heh, it's that time of year (up here at least) when we are all trying to knock the rust off. No harm no foul as long as we learn from it.

Pipeline construction tries very hard to not go down section lines and roads. They also also avoid eminent domain, because of years of delay. That puts lots of new lines in conflict with other operations. The crop duster will most often see the pipeline pilot first because he is almost always in a low wing vs high wing. Because I patrolled out the front windscreen, I preferred low wing. The only times I got to fly Cherokee was when company 172 was in maintenance. 172 on patrol without energy management turn would have much more CFIT.

That's interesting and scary. I had a close call as well yesterday and learned a lesson. Hopped in the Champ to fly down to Argyle 1C3 to schedule my annual for June. My radio is a handheld wired into a external antenna. About 1/2 way down I switched to the CTAF for GFL (Untowered) which I generally fly over en route. It was a beautiful day, so I altered course a bit to fly down the Hudson River which would put me about 3 miles south of GFL (Instead of directly over) crossing from West to East. There was a Dakota shooting a approach on the CTAF. I am not instrument rated and do not know the procedures for GFL. I went to transmit my position and the radio went dead, my batteries were low. I could turn it on and listen, but not transmit. He announced a 8 mile final for a low pass on 01. I climbed up to 2,800' - pattern altitude for GFL is 1,300' - and adjusted to put me closer to the airport. He then announced short final and I picked him up visually, well below me. He then announced a climbing left turn out which would put him behind me on the West side of the airport, I was now directly over the end of 01 about 1/2-3/4 miles south of the end of the runway and I could not see him anymore. Less than a minute later about 1/2 mile East of the airport I see him coming right at me in a climb. I was just enough ahead so he passed behind me, a fair distance, but close enough so I could read his N number. I'm not sure if he saw me or not. Got to Argyle changed the batteries in the radio and talked to the owner of the airport, who also gave me my check ride. Told him about the encounter and the first thing he sad is that instrument procedures for GFL are a right turn out from 01, so the pilot made a incorrect call. Lessons learned, make sure my batteries are good, maybe learn the instrument procedures for airports you frequent and try to maintain visual contact. I totally relaxed when I heard that he was making a turn that would put him well behind me. I should have kept him in sight.

Pete

On a pipeline at 200' AGL one is generally below Decision Height or Missed Approach Point for practice approach. The approach plate will show what fix he should head for on the missed approach. 1,000' AGL is obviously the most dangerous altitude for passing through traffic. Save very high, lower than 1,000 is the safer. I have seen lots of aircraft that were not traffic because they were much higher around big airports. IFR gives the most complete ATC services, but when busy in VMC they will want a visual approach. That is see and avoid for all. With or without good communications, the lower aircraft can see higher aircraft well and the higher aircraft will struggle to see lower aircraft. Airline pilots have electronic collision avoidance equipment, but seldom see pipeline aircraft.

Barnstormer wrote:And finally, please stop announcing your aircraft manufacturer and call sign. Neither do anyone any good in determining what you are, what you look like, and what speed you are going. Blue and white Stearman actually has value

I don't disagree, but this is also directly against what the FAA says in AC 90-66B:

10.3.1 Self-announce transmissions may include aircraft type to aid in identification and detection, but should not use paint schemes or color descriptions to replace the use of the aircraft call sign. For example, “MIDWEST TRAFFIC, TWIN COMMANDER FIVE ONE ROMEO FOXTROT TEN MILES NORTHEAST” or “MIDWEST TRAFFIC, FIVE ONE ROMEO FOXTROT TWIN COMMANDER TEN MILES NORTHEAST,” not “MIDWEST TRAFFIC, BLUE AND WHITE TWIN COMMANDER TEN MILES NORTHEAST.”

So while I agree what you say provides value, I also won't get upset with someone for following FAA guidance.

First off, glad you didn't exchange paint with the other aircraft.

I was going to say what fredy said about color versus tail number. Note that I'm not hard over on it in any way, but as an instructor I have to point out to people what it says in the good book, and it says "tail number". The color thing no doubt originated with Oshkosh arrivals where you just shut up and listen.

I really don't care if you say "blue and yellow Harley Davidson" as long as you add "midfield left downwind, 25, [field name]" and that is where you actually are. I'll find you just fine.

I would end up saying "Mostly red and blue with some white Citabria" which doesn't speed things up for any of us.

I’m not sure this situation would benefit from ADSB since both planes were at tree top level. Nobody should be looking at their panel when at low altitude.

I wish people would talk more on the radio. Too many folks only talk at their departure airport and at their destination. Regular logically placed position reports go a long ways toward keeping airplanes away from each other. I don’t care or even pay attention to what airplane I just want to know where people are with reasonable accuracy.

It's nice when flying into a busy island airstrip around here when there's three or four airplanes in the pattern, and everyone has the common sense not to rattle off all their numbers at each transmission. They know enough not use up precious airtime when several planes are close in proximity and traveling 80-100kts. You can then be concise and effective.
Then you get the one who has to tell everyone his type and numbers including the "November" part. I don't care what the faa has to say about it, it makes absolutely no sense.

whee wrote:I’m not sure this situation would benefit from ADSB since both planes were at tree top level. Nobody should be looking at their panel when at low altitude.

I wish people would talk more on the radio. Too many folks only talk at their departure airport and at their destination. Regular logically placed position reports go a long ways toward keeping airplanes away from each other. I don’t care or even pay attention to what airplane I just want to know where people are with reasonable accuracy.

I agree that eyeballs need to be out of the cockpit. That said, it's helpful to have a yellow warning start flashing at you when traffic pops up unexpectedly. I'm new to ADS-B, and have already had a couple of warnings flash up on the panel that got my attention and helped me take evasive action for aircraft I didn't know were there. Radio calls are still the best, but the bottom line is that not everyone uses the radio, and not everyone who uses the radio uses it well.

CAVU

The PIC decision to do the unsanctioned but logically safer thing can easily bring legal sanctions, but, if safer is not a bad tradeoff. We often assume authorities have little common sense. I have found that not usually to be the case. Compare "Regulations" to suggestions, even intimidation. Airmen Certification Standards, for instance, are not regulations. Instructors can teach compliance, among other things like common sense. Pilots can comply, among other things like flying safely and efficiently. Think about judgement. Does it mean that there is but one choice or is it deciding between more than one choice?

The FAA has bureaucratic challenges, but is not The Godfather. It does not make pilots an offer they cannot refuse, just student pilots. CFIs can instruct to standards and they also can teach.

If students were computers, the software guys could if then to their heart's content.

whee wrote:I’m not sure this situation would benefit from ADSB since both planes were at tree top level. Nobody should be looking at their panel when at low altitude.

A quick pre-takeoff tablet scan for ADS-B targets might have helped the situation before it started, but I agree at treetop level or in critical phases of flight that ones eyes should be outside.

whee wrote:I wish people would talk more on the radio. Too many folks only talk at their departure airport and at their destination. Regular logically placed position reports go a long ways toward keeping airplanes away from each other. I don’t care or even pay attention to what airplane I just want to know where people are with reasonable accuracy.

x2

ADSB? You’d have to have line of sight between two belly mounted antennae attached to two airplanes, on the ground, a few miles apart....

If two aircraft were departing simultaneously, once they were airborne, I’m not sure they’d get an alert and have time enough to react before they were on each other.

ADSB is not catch all. I frequently fly tree top level, land in deep valley meadows and on mountain ridges. 90% of my flights are very low but, I am amazed at what ADBS reveals.

No regrets spending 5K.

I’m amazed at how ADSB has pointed out a couple of traffic alerts in remote areas that I didn’t see and I rarely ever pleasure fly above 1000’. There are 3 things I really don’t care for ever experiencing in no particular order are Severe Turbulence (unfortunately been there a few times), unstoppable cargo fire and mid air collision (have seen one and know several pilots involved). I’ve become a believer in ADSB technology but our eyeballs and traffic calls all need to work together to get the most out of it. Even then things happen.

While flying at work were cleared for a visual approach one evening into Bethel, AK and told to report a 8 mile base for landing to the south. Visual clearance was obtained at 30 miles out and in the B-737 we usually use a 3 to 1 descent path so at 30 miles we are at 10,000 and slowed to 250 kts. The setting sun and sh*t load of lakes around the Kuskokwim River is a jumbled sight to see. Captain was hand flying and approaching 15 miles out and was starting to slow and configure. My eyes were outside and I glanced down to verify his requested flap setting. Looked back up and continued my outside scan. It started out as a small speck that didn’t fit in and immediately ended up being the top of a Beaver......I really don’t know how to explain how quick it transpired. A couple of screams and yells not to mention a really hard evasive maneuver occupied us for a second. Right after we passed by way to close the Beaver pilot radioed the tower 12 miles out at 4500’ he too was concerned and surprised seeing us show up next to him. We didn’t see a TCAS target and the other pilot was at the right VFR altitude and doing nothing wrong. We would have driven directly into his red rotating beacon(It was one of the old style ambulance type). The lake he was headed to is right off the approach end of our intended runway.

The reason I stay low in my personal flying is listening to the multitude of small planes (occasionally C-130) crisscrossing the Matsu area between 1000’ and 2000’ especially on weekends. Everybody has some kinda story. Use every tool you have to make flying safer.