contactflying wrote:There are many advantages to working low and off the beaten path whether helicopter, crop duster, or pipeline patrol. Tower is comfortable with you not being conflicting traffic and at uncontrolled you are left alone unless you crowd and talk. Sometimes talking causes much unnecessary distraction for those on the beaten path.

Agreed!!

Landing a helicopter on a pinnacle LZ at high density altitude praying you don’t get LTE is not a time to be working the radio!

Nice spot, Phil. Good picture.

In the ADSB-equipped planes I’ve flown I’ve been able to see airborne planes while on the ground and vice-versa. When departing uncontrolled fields I always checked the ADSB display for traffic (in addition to monitoring the radio and announcing my departure intentions) while taxiing out. Sometimes guys weren’t making position reports and sometimes they’d forgotten to change frequencies - in those case the ADSB displays were a benefit.

Changing subjects slightly, vague position reports like “Cessna 123 is ten out” are frustrating because you don’t know where to look for traffic. Position reports that include a distance and direction, such as “Ten northeast, planning runway 01” are infinitely more helpful. In that example, you know where he’s coming from and you can also anticipate how he’ll enter the pattern. In Bethel, Tom Ratledge went one better by giving the radial and distance off the VOR, so you knew precisely where to look for him.

To get back to Phil’s original post, one of the things I see is a LOT of pilots driving around VERY low, and often along a river (IFR, I guess). And not thinking about what might be right around the next corner.

I was doing some training with a guy on one of the many river bars in the Mat Su once, and we were just ready to push up the power for takeoff from a bar when a C-130 went directly overhead at a few hundred feet. We’d have made a nasty bug splat on his windshield. Waited a wee bit and the trailer passed over, then the third. There were four total. I doubt any saw us.

There are “landing zones” all over out there, folks, and if you’re stooging around out there low level, you damn well better KNOW what you’re flying over,. I’ve watched airplanes fly over charted airports at low level, totally oblivious to those of us in the pattern.

Closest I’ve ever come to a mid air was two miles from Fairbanks International, a 185 came from my rear quarter and passed VERY close in front. He never saw me, and wasn’t talking to ATC. With tower’s permission, I followed him to his nearby destination and landed for a chat. He was giving an aerial tour for friends, and in the process drove right through the approach corridor of a busy international airport.

They’re out there, folks. Don’t be that guy. Situational awareness is key, especially low.

MTV

8GCBC wrote:During my helicopter primary training, I went through a beautiful metamorphosis. I could depart/arrive from Honolulu International’s ramp in almost any direction from hover! Having a polite voice and self confident demeanor helps with the tower however as we all know (or soon know). It was a weird sensation not to taxi but, to depart from hover (and join a SID, VFR route, or SAR). After many years “sitting behind a 747” in a Cessna 172 sweating in 90F heat for 30 minutes, wow, what a relief! Sometimes, we would shutdown the engines holding because there were 8 arrivals and 29 departures holding!

Generally it is mind blowing the freedom that helicopters enjoy. But, that incredible freedom (and the residual boost of ego) can bite you too. Situation Awareness is something some folks have trouble grasping. It’s a learning curve of dangerous consequences.

Carry on men...

A fling wing Idaho pilot once told me of over flying downtown Boise and it's suburbs at a minimum altitude, in order to get a good look at the Christmas holiday lights! He (also a fixed wing back country pilot) mentioned that he could do "stuff" with the chopper, without drawing any undue comment, because the gen pub assume it's some sort of official flight, not just some yahoo having a looksee! I love that....I have been told more then once that some have assumed my green trimmed bird looks like maybe it's a Fish and Game or some sort of wildlife management aircraft.

You guys have a radio?


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courierguy wrote:

8GCBC wrote:During my helicopter primary training, I went through a beautiful metamorphosis. I could depart/arrive from Honolulu International’s ramp in almost any direction from hover! Having a polite voice and self confident demeanor helps with the tower however as we all know (or soon know). It was a weird sensation not to taxi but, to depart from hover (and join a SID, VFR route, or SAR). After many years “sitting behind a 747” in a Cessna 172 sweating in 90F heat for 30 minutes, wow, what a relief! Sometimes, we would shutdown the engines holding because there were 8 arrivals and 29 departures holding!

Generally it is mind blowing the freedom that helicopters enjoy. But, that incredible freedom (and the residual boost of ego) can bite you too. Situation Awareness is something some folks have trouble grasping. It’s a learning curve of dangerous consequences.

Carry on men...

A fling wing Idaho pilot once told me of over flying downtown Boise and it's suburbs at a minimum altitude, in order to get a good look at the Christmas holiday lights! He (also a fixed wing back country pilot) mentioned that he could do "stuff" with the chopper, without drawing any undue comment, because the gen pub assume it's some sort of official flight, not just some yahoo having a looksee! I love that....I have been told more then once that some have assumed my green trimmed bird looks like maybe it's a Fish and Game or some sort of wildlife management aircraft.

I definitely believe a black helicopter seems to not be counted as a civil aircraft. My yellow seaplane had been called up several times for noise in various airports, The chopper resonates much more noise but, looks like it means business!

Law enforcement in Oregon pretty much give me the “Thumbs Up”. They really like my little black ship! The State Police wanted to get one:

In Vietnam the black Hueys were snoop and poops. CIAs magic way to be stealth. Yes, they looked official.

gbflyer wrote:You guys have a radio?


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Justin, a little reminder: The black thing in the panel that say GARMIN. It will be covered in your next BFR with me.

Thanks Jonathan.

And Mike made an excellent point about taking off from off airport locations, especially gravel bars and beaches. Easy to believe one is all alone except for the birds.

ADSB does add another way to avoid traffic conflicts, so it can be helpful...
But there can be aircraft out there that are not displayed on your visual screen of traffic...
I believe it will not show you to other aircraft until you are above the stall speed that was entered when your unit was programmed. (I understand this was to avoid filling the display when you were flying in proximity to multiple aircraft on the ground near you, I.e., in the pattern)
So, by all means, use it to increase your situational awareness, but don’t rely on it to show EVERY aircraft near you...

Safe flying to all...keep your head on a swivel!

CAVU wrote:Most airplanes are going to be equipped with ADS-B...
CAVU

MS Pirate wrote:ADSB does add another way to avoid traffic conflicts, so it can be helpful...
But there can be aircraft out there that are not displayed on your visual screen of traffic...

So...since this is a backcountry flying discussion... I'm not sure how many folks appreciate the number of backcountry pilots who are NOT putting any sort of ADSB instrumentation in their aircraft. ADSB may be universal at the frontcountry airport you depart from, but there are a whole lot of pilots flying the backcountry who don't need it, don't want it, and don't have it. (To a much lesser extent the same is true for radios...at least functioning radios.)

I don't have it, and until I can't fly Class G without it I never will...I'm not alone in that. It's a common theme for people flying bug-smashers out of non-towered airports...you know...the folks spending all their time in the backcountry.

I don't discredit the SA that ADSB can add, but its REAL far from universal, especially in the backcountry...don't start relying on it just yet. Anyone looking at a screen instead of out the windows needs to be in controlled airspace where ADSB is mandatory. Otherwise it's a real false security.

People should stop thinking ADS-B is some sort of a panacea.
If anything, I fear it's going to make mid-air collisions more likely with pilots overly relying on it in the backcountry where mountainous terrain may possibly interfere with accurate ADS-B position signal.
For example, both of the planes in the Ketchikan mid air last year were equipped with ADS-B.

Barnstormer started this thread with how staying low prevented a midair. I have been a very incident and accident prone pilot. Early on I surmised that l could not afford a midair. So I stayed in little airplanes very low where few airplanes and very few midairs live.

I have never been in the backcountry or off airport in a gaggle. I would not have survived. Yes, I looked outside all the time I was not IMC, but I understood how poor high wing visibility is. The get togethers you all post are scary to me. I have always been low and have given way to all. All have mostly been high and therefore easier for a low guy to see, give way, and avoid. Several airplanes in the same tight mountain valley cannot be as safe as a pipeline patrol crossing an international airport at 200'AGL.

Be safe out there guys. Meybe our social distancing practice will encourage us. Kevin does an amazing job at High Sierra and Oshkosh has few midairs given the numbers, but fly in attendees are asking a lot.

I'm with you on that.

Hammer wrote:

CAVU wrote:Most airplanes are going to be equipped with ADS-B...
CAVU

MS Pirate wrote:ADSB does add another way to avoid traffic conflicts, so it can be helpful...
But there can be aircraft out there that are not displayed on your visual screen of traffic...

So...since this is a backcountry flying discussion... I'm not sure how many folks appreciate the number of backcountry pilots who are NOT putting any sort of ADSB instrumentation in their aircraft. ADSB may be universal at the frontcountry airport you depart from, but there are a whole lot of pilots flying the backcountry who don't need it, don't want it, and don't have it. (To a much lesser extent the same is true for radios...at least functioning radios.)

I don't have it, and until I can't fly Class G without it I never will...I'm not alone in that. It's a common theme for people flying bug-smashers out of non-towered airports...you know...the folks spending all their time in the backcountry.

I don't discredit the SA that ADSB can add, but its REAL far from universal, especially in the backcountry...don't start relying on it just yet. Anyone looking at a screen instead of out the windows needs to be in controlled airspace where ADSB is mandatory. Otherwise it's a real false security.

Never will equip with AD-BS. Never. BTW, it is only required in certain airspace, not all airspace.

8GCBC wrote:

"YOU HAVE 2 SECONDS TO GET OUT OR WE START SHOOTING!"

I don't believe that ANY of us who DO have ADS-B IN think it's showing us ALL of the traffic out there. Personally, I've always relied on the old Mk 1 eyeball for traffic avoidance. And thus far – knock on wood – I've managed to avoid trading paint with anyone else. My closest call was a Bonanza that overtook me from my left rear side (from about 5 o'clock), and maybe 10 feet below me and less than 50 yards away. I could count the rivets on his wing... I was at 1500 ft, still in cruise-climb just outside the Class Charlie airspace. I had no inkling he was there until he was past me... No amount of "looking outside" would have made him visible to me.

But after installing ADS-B several years (and three planes) ago, I experienced a similar "overtake from behind" incident. (Not too uncommon when you fly a slow-ass airplane!) My eyes saw nothing, but the ADS-B IN traffic alert caused me to alter my heading and climb a bit. By the time he passed me, I was at least 250 ft above him, and well over 1000 ft apart.

Does that mean I've stopped looking out for traffic? Heck no! There are plenty of Cubs, PPCs, Balloons, etc. out there that have no electrical systems, no radios, and no transponders. They are ONLY visible using my eyeballs. So I have not relaxed my visual scan one iota versus before ADS-B.

That said, I've been absolutely amazed at the number of airplanes it has called out to me that I had no idea were there... I see traffic in the pattern while still on the ground. And aircraft called out as traffic are MUCH easier to find when they're already on the screen, so you know exactly where to look. But it also makes you realize just how difficult it can be to see an airplane in flight that is lower than you are – even when you can "see" pretty much exactly where they should be...

Whether it's my vision getting progressively worse (normal aging stuff - nothing wrong with the eyes) or just suddenly becoming aware of a lot of traffic that was always there and never before noticed, I cannot say. But I can say – absolutely and categorically without exception – that ADS-B traffic information in the cockpit has made my flying MUCH safer.

ADS-B traffic information is NOT the be-all, end-all solution for traffic avoidance. But neither is "see-and-avoid"... Working together, the two are better than either one alone. That's why I've installed it in every plane I've owned since it became available. You're free to have a different opinion, and to act accordingly.

hotrod180 wrote:

8GCBC wrote:

"YOU HAVE 2 SECONDS TO GET OUT OR WE START SHOOTING!"

Weapons locked and loaded. We take airport SECURITY VERY seriously in Newport, Oregon.

Better use your fn radio!!

One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is ADS-B. What do you all think about it?