Too good to be buried...split from "New C180...The madness begins" -Z
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I had mentioned a bit before about how the previous owner of my C180 used copious amounts of clothespins as memory devices inside the cabin. At first, I thought it was a bit schmarmy, but I have decided to fully embrace them and go all the way.

This past summer I landed at a friends private grass strip. After two hours of farting around I realized that the slight hill the 170 was on had caused almost all the fuel in the right tank to shift to the left. I spent a half hour hanging on the wing after spinning the 170 around to get fuel back in the wing.

Today I deployed the P-Touch and have fully gone clothespin.

With a Cessna fuel system, switching to one tank or the other on the selector when parked on a slope prevents porting of fuel from one wing to the other.

I never turn the fuel valve OFF.....like never. Don't believe you can screw up????...look at the early history of the Cessna Caravan. They are parked with the fuel selector in the off position. There were a number of very experienced pilots who killed themselves and others a half mile from the departure end of a runway....

Cloths-pins require an action by the pilot.... to put it on, take it off-----still easy to screw up.

Leave the gas on one tank or the other, but don't turn it off.

MTV

I'm the same way... I NEVER turn the fuel selector off. I've had an engine die on me 50feet in the air before by getting distracted and forgetting to check where my fuel selector was (this was a left, right, off selector though and I took off with almost empty fuel in one tank instead of switching to the other tank). Luckily I had enough runway in front of me to make a dead stick landing, switched the fuel selector to the other tank and fired it up again. With my 170 I leave it on both 99% of the time. Switching to the left or right tank is a good way to prevent fuel transfer to the low wing while parked on a side slope as MTV says. At least if you forget to switch to both before takeoff your engine isn't going to quit from fuel starvation when your off the end of the runway.

So this begets a question - if all your fuel transfered to the low wing while parked on a slope and you took off with fuel selector on both, would the tanks equalize again by themselves in flight?

I also never turn the fuel off in my cessna, mostly because the fuel shutoff is not on the selector valve but rather its a knob that you "pull" to the off position. The problem with this system is that the cable that is used to "pull" the fuel valve off works great in tension but not as well in compression. Thus, the cable does not do a good job of returning the valve to the full "on" position by "pushing" the knob back down.

I like the clothespin idea. While it isn't a guarantee, it sure does serve as a good reminder if needed. In my supercub, if I turned the fuel selector to one tank to prevent crossfeeding in the tanks, I would hang the key to the ignition on the fuel selector valve. And yes, the key always stayed with the plane and it was never locked (no locks).

I believe, and I may be wrong on this, that if you turn at least some of the earlier 170/180 fuel valves to OFF, you can still transfer from tank to tank. I believe they have a t shaped port setup so you have to set it to one tank to get the crossflow to stop.

That was definitely true in my cub with the L-R-B-Off selector. Off and Both would allow crossfeed. R and L would prevent crossfeed.

All very good points. Thanks! Let me clarify though... I always set the selector to one side, not "off." The cloths pin is a cool idea to remind me that the selector is on one tank and that the complete fuel system is "off."

I also have it written in my checklist (twice) as well as a orange label on the panel in front of me. Can never be too careful...

bigrenna wrote:Today I deployed the P-Touch and have fully gone cloths pin.

You're gonna have nightmares if you ever walk by a clothesline!

AKclimber wrote:So this begets a question - if all your fuel transfered to the low wing while parked on a slope and you took off with fuel selector on both, would the tanks equalize again by themselves in flight?

Yes, no problem.

MTV

mtv wrote:With a Cgessna fuel system, switching to one tank or the other when parked on a slope prevents porting of fuel from one wing to the other.

I never turn the fuel valve OFF, like never. Don't believe you can screw up...look at the early history of the Cessna Caravan. They are parked with the fuel selector in the off position. Ther were a number of very experienced pilots killed mthemselves and, others a half mile from the departure end of ma runway....

Clothspins require an action by the pilot....put it on, take it off, still easy to screw up.

Leave the gas on one tank or the other, but don't turn it off.

MTV

Understood. But...

When preheating, especially with a Northern Companion (i.e. open flame is present), I select "Off" to restrict fuel flow in the event of a fire. What sayeth our sages about that practice?

p.s. Zane- could we have a thread titled "Pearls of hard-won wisdom" where posts like MTV's above could get added by the moderator or by nomination?

AKclimber wrote:So this begets a question - if all your fuel transfered to the low wing while parked on a slope and you took off with fuel selector on both, would the tanks equalize again by themselves in flight?

I thought the requirement to be on both when shut down was only on the fuel injected 172s. At least my checklists only call for this on the IO360 versions.

And the fuel return from the fuel pump dumps fuel only in the right tank in flight, so the left tank naturally drains faster than the right.

NOTE- early 182's with an overhead transfer fuel line will move fuel from one tank to the other... on a slope, regardless of how you set the fuel selector. Then, that cheap fuel just dumps itself on the ground. DAMN

flightlogic wrote:NOTE- early 182's with an overhead transfer fuel line will move fuel from one tank to the other... on a slope, regardless of how you set the fuel selector. Then, that cheap fuel just dumps itself on the ground. DAMN

BUT, that overhead line will only port fuel if your tanks are pretty full OR you're on a really steep slope.

Huskys have that overhead line as well, and only have an on-off fuel selector. I plug the downhill vent to prevent it pissing fuel all over teh place in those.

MTV

denalipilot wrote:

mtv wrote:With a Cgessna fuel system, switching to one tank or the other when parked on a slope prevents porting of fuel from one wing to the other.

I never turn the fuel valve OFF, like never. Don't believe you can screw up...look at the early history of the Cessna Caravan. They are parked with the fuel selector in the off position. Ther were a number of very experienced pilots killed mthemselves and, others a half mile from the departure end of ma runway....

Clothspins require an action by the pilot....put it on, take it off, still easy to screw up.

Leave the gas on one tank or the other, but don't turn it off.

MTV

Understood. But...

When preheating, especially with a Northern Companion (i.e. open flame is present), I select "Off" to restrict fuel flow in the event of a fire. What sayeth our sages about that practice?

p.s. Zane- could we have a thread titled "Pearls of hard-won wisdom" where posts like MTV's above could get added by the moderator or by nomination?

If it catches fire, there's lots of oil there to burn as well. You need to attend that process full time. If it burns, turn off the gas, or just be REALLY careful. Cessna installed an interlock in the starter system I believe in the Caravan to prevent starts with the fuel turned off.

MTV

Weird..... Again.....

A fuel selector gets left off by a sloppy preflight, start, warm up, taxi, take off .... And then we blame the fuel selector, rather than the brainiac who left it off? Sorry, I don't buy it. And since the vast majority of Caravans are flown in a commercial capacity, I don't feel too warm and fuzzy, having a guy(s) at the controls who have removed 'check the fuel selector' position from their flight ops just because 'they' always leave it on.... Most commercial aircraft are shared / operated by numerous pilots. Getting in behind someone else and not checking out how the last guy left the airplane is simply not acceptable on my books.

As for pearls of wisdom, I would suggest fooling with your fuel selector in some fashion (whether you select a different tank, go both, go off or whatever) before every flight. Not touching it at all is what killed those 'van pilots. Had they been of the school of securing their aircraft properly after every flight, they would likely still be here with us today.

There are good reasons for not selecting the off position on a fuel selector, there are no good reasons for not using correctly... Having had the distinct pleasure of getting in a turbine airplane behind someone who never used their fuel selector, i can tell you that it will likely freeze. I can also tell you that when the fuel condition lever cable shears, shutting down that engine, without a fuel selector Is going to be interesting...

But worst of all will be the time when you fly into red creek with a wise old buddy from Alaska. The parking is slopped so you will switch the fuel in the cub to off so it doesn't all drain out the downhill vent...
It will be spring, meaning the buddy hasn't flown for a couple months, but he is a solid commercial guy who doesn't go to pot that quick, and he Jonseing for some cub time so you'll give him the front seat. He is a cub owner as well, a high time commercial type... A pilot's pilot.... You wouldn't think twice about letting him fly your plane, so your not likely to watch over him much...
Your a gracious host, and realize spring afternoons at red creek probably yield DA's that are foreign to him, so you don't comment when he tries to kill you wallowing out of ground effect with almost enough speed to fly... Of course he's an overall sharp pilot and lowers the nose, and the Mesa drops off ahead with room to spare before the mountains.

And then it will happen... 40' AGL, off the end of the strip, and over the river, mountain ahead and the engine quits.... You both know the sound, been through the routine, and meet up at the selector....
He feels bad for not checking it, you feel bad for not telling him, or checking it...bad feelings all around and then big laughs. Guaranteed to be an NTSB report for guys who don't log the same amount of hours in the year.... Guaranteed...


Blanket statements and flying never worked good for me, but to each his own... Don't ever want to turn off your fuel selector? That's cool too... But check it Every time.... Even if you need a clothes pin to remind you

Rob wrote: A fuel selector gets left off by a sloppy preflight, start, warm up, taxi, take off .... And then we blame the fuel selector, rather than the brainiac who left it off? Sorry, I don't buy it.

X2 Amen....

Gump

Rob wrote:Weird..... Again.....

A fuel selector gets left off by a sloppy preflight, start, warm up, taxi, take off .... And then we blame the fuel selector, rather than the brainiac who left it off? Sorry, I don't buy it. And since the vast majority of Caravans are flown in a commercial capacity, I don't feel too warm and fuzzy, having a guy(s) at the controls who have removed 'check the fuel selector' position from their flight ops just because 'they' always leave it on.... Most commercial aircraft are shared / operated by numerous pilots. Getting in behind someone else and not checking out how the last guy left the airplane is simply not acceptable on my books.

But worst of all will be the time when you fly into red creek with a wise old buddy from Alaska. The parking is slopped so you will switch the fuel in the cub to off so it doesn't all drain out the downhill vent...
It will be spring, meaning the buddy hasn't flown for a couple months, but he is a solid commercial guy who doesn't go to pot that quick, and he Jonseing for some cub time so you'll give him the front seat. He is a cub owner as well, a high time commercial type... A pilot's pilot.... You wouldn't think twice about letting him fly your plane, so your not likely to watch over him much...
Your a gracious host, and realize spring afternoons at red creek probably yield DA's that are foreign to him, so you don't comment when he tries to kill you wallowing out of ground effect with almost enough speed to fly... Of course he's an overall sharp pilot and lowers the nose, and the Mesa drops off ahead with room to spare before the mountains.

And then it will happen... 40' AGL, off the end of the strip, and over the river, mountain ahead and the engine quits.... You both know the sound, been through the routine, and meet up at the selector....
He feels bad for not checking it, you feel bad for not telling him, or checking it...bad feelings all around and then big laughs. Guaranteed to be an NTSB report for guys who don't log the same amount of hours in the year.... Guaranteed...


Blanket statements and flying never worked good for me, but to each his own... Don't ever want to turn off your fuel selector? That's cool too... But check it Every time.... Even if you need a clothes pin to remind you

Ron,

Sorry, I didn't realize anyone on this list was pure-d perfect

I personally have screwed up once or twice in an airplane, I'm glad to know you never have and never will.

Three of the Caravan accidents I know of were short turns in village strips....ie: same pilot turned off the gas and same pilot died with his pax. I knew one of those guys and he was a high time pilot but fairly new to the Caravan. Cessna didn't modify the airplane because it was a bad design, they did so because humans are flying them.

An event somewhat like Your experience in the Cub killed another gent I knew, an experienced Air Guard pilot who was familiar with the stock cub fuel system, but not the "header less" system. Leave the stock system alone and you can park on slopes.....progress?

We're all human.......checklists are great tools. I've seen accomplished pilots read items on one and not do it. It happens.

OM,

The John Wayne thing ceased being funny a long time ago. If you ever lose a friend, try it on and see how funny it is.

MTV

mtv wrote:OM,

The John Wayne thing ceased being funny a long time ago. If you ever lose a friend, try it on and see how funny it is.
MTV

Dear MTV: I removed the picture. Sorry I offended you. I am 54. Buy the time we get in our 50s we all have lost family and friends. Some for stupid reasons. Yes I said stupid. You can sugar coat it but but that doesn't change the facts. I spent 30 years in the fire department picking up dead bodies so I apologize for being a little callous.

It's hard picking up dead bodies of children, it is harder when a stupid person kills them.

The reason for the picture isn't really to be funny. It is meant to get peoples attention. Flying is deadly serious shit and you better get it right the first time, you don't always get a second chance.

G'Day



Rant over