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Backcountry Pilot • Trip plan; western WA to Denver

Trip plan; western WA to Denver

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Trip plan; western WA to Denver

Looking for some input from the group on planning a trip.
I need to be in Denver for business bright and early Thursday June 11th. I plan to fly into KBJC on Wednesday the 10th and head for my hotel.
I will fly out from my home which is near Elma, WA 4W8. I'm planning to leave from home either Monday or Tuesday morning, depending on weather and plans along the way.
I'm flying VFR in a 170B with O-340 and C/S prop. I'll be using Foreflight and Stratus with ADS-B in. Otherwise, basic VFR equipment.
I've never flown this part of the country before. I know the Rockies have certain challenges that I have no experience with.
I've roughly plotted a route that takes me fairly direct to just north of Salt Lake, then east, and around the tall mountains west of Denver, then south to KBJC.
I'm hoping to make a little fun along the way by camping somewhere one or two nights (depending on weather and when I leave) under the wing at some fun little spot. I'm dragging my dad along and hoping to make some memories.
I'm fishing for some suggestions on places to overnight, routes for safety and scenery, and any other good advise.
This my first posting of this nature so if I've left out any important info, feel free to tell me so :)

Thanks a bunch,
Jeff
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

Our normal thunderstorm pattern seems to be a bit pronounced this season, so if possible plan your last leg down from WY(ish) to BJC well before noon. I am looking out the window right now at a some huge buildup which is a typical for our afternoon storm season, but the conditions this morning were great. Northern CO and Southern Wyoming routes can also be pretty darn windy, so the earlier the better. A 170 is a great airplane and will do just fine, but on your first trip you may be surprised just how much a warm windy day near the mountains will take out of your performance.

BJC is a great big airport but it does tend to gust there a bit before others in the area based on its location next to the foothills so be aware. KLMO is just north of KBJC has the cheapest self serve 100LL in area usually (excluding Platte Valley which is a bit east of your flight path).

Other than that, I can't speak to much to the rest of the trip regarding suggested stops. Enjoy yourself and plan a sightseeing trip flying down the Front Range side of the foothills while you are here. On a nice day it is breathtaking how far you can see with white-capped mountains to the west and lots of green green country (which is rarely as green as it currently is) to the east.

I am sure others will chime in as well with all the things I am leaving out. :)
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

Saratoga, WY, has springs, and you can either walk down to the public hot springs (http://saratogachamber.info/play-here/things-to-do/mineral-hot-springs/) and enjoy camping at the airport (I've seen some people do that, so I think it is ok), or you can use one of the courtesy jeeps from http://www.saratogaresortandspa.com/ if you choose to stay there. Good eats at Bellas http://www.bellaswyoming.com/. The flight between Saratoga and your destination is scenic as well. If there is weather, Saratoga is better than the other suggestions because you can go north along the lowlands (I-80 or Medicine Bow) around the mountain weather and then run south to your destination.

Steamboat is a nice stop on the way (the one in town, that is). In the summer, reasonable rates on a motel are available. Hot springs are out of town and requires a rental to be practical. It is scenic, and so is the ride back to your destination. Taxis into town average 20-25 bucks. http://strawberryhotsprings.com/

Glenwood Springs is another nice stopover, but a car rental is really only convenient during the week. The route back from there has a couple of moderately high passes,or a northern detour that adds at least 30-45 minutes to your destination. http://www.hotspringspool.com/ Good eats in several places, but for Italian it's the underground http://www.theitalianunderground.com/.

Granby has a nice courtesy car, and lots of people have used it to go for a day hike in Rocky Mountain National Park or Arapaho National Forest. They like it to only be gone for 2 hours, but there is cell access in much of the Park, and people put their cell phone number down in the pilot lounge in case someone gets there and needs to use it. There is good food in Granby and even better in the Grand Lake area just down the road. If you like French cuisine, a Michelin-level chef opened up a nice place just recently with reasonable prices. Not sure about camping at the airport, but it would really surprise me if there was a problem with it. http://www.granbyairport.com/ http://www.stillwatergrill.net/

There is a nice dirt strip (Marble) just west of Aspen that is privately owned that is a real stunner for scenery. I don't know the current status for access is. Unless you are pretty light, you might consider it just a day trip with your load left behind as you get used to the high DA. It can get over 10k DA even on an average summer morning. There area few other dirt strips farther south that people might chime in on, but they all have the DA issue as well.

Dolores Point is a bit of a detour, but is a nice dirt strip with camping on the CO/UT border SW of Grand Junction. The DA issue is only moderate, and is used by pretty much anything with wings.
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

If Marble intrests ya, do the waiver so we can stay on their good side. New owners, and they seem pretty good about sharing their property, but they do want to know about it before ya go there.

If ya decide on Dolores Point, (which ya could spend days in that area, and could also get fuel at Mack Mesa on your way there, they usually have a pretty fair price, and camping, and other services),be sure to checkout Hubbard(Gateway Canyon lands, which is just off the mesa on the Dolores River) Good restaurants,nice strip, and a real nice car museum.
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

Alpina 23,

Email me at [email protected] and I will attach my e-book, "Safe Maneuvering Flight Techniques." It has mountain stuff in it, but you will want to go early and high as these guys suggest without some instruction. Always be aware of which way is downhill, especially on takeoff. If pulling back on the wheel doesn't cause climb, push forward. Fly slow in updrafts and fast through downdrafts.

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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

You can more or less follow I-84, then I-80 to Laramie, then to Fort Collins and down the front range to KBJC. That will keep you over the lower terrain. I've flown that route from Vancouver, WA to Cheyenne, WY in my 170B.
Last edited by robw56 on Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

I just got home from work and I have a lot of input from all of you. Thank so much. Now I'm going to sift through the suggestions and look at the map to see where these different places are. Sounds like I need to be on the ground fairly early in the day for safety?? So I should find some places the give me something to do since I'll be there a while in the afternoon/evening.

After I study the input I'll ask more questions. Thanks a ton.

Jeff
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

Thanks, Rob. Thats pretty what I have plotted out now. Just need to figure out where to overnight, how long into the day its safe for me to fly, and fuel stops. The high DA is important for me since I live and fly at sea level.


You can more or less follow I-84, then I-80 to Laramie, then get on then to Fort Collins and down the front range to KBJC. That will keep you over the lower terrain. I've flown that route from Vancouver, WA to Cheyenne, WY in my 170B.[/quote]
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

When I did my flight I stopped in Blackfoot, ID (U02) for the night because it was a short walk to a hotel and food.
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

Alpina23 wrote:The high DA is important for me since I live and fly at sea level.


I am not sure how much you pay attention to CHT/EGT/oil temps and mixture at sea level, but up here it is almost mandatory up here (if you have the equipment of course). The only person who can get away without leaning his engine up here is soyAchristo, and that is because he doesn't have a mixture knob in his little J3. :) Less air means less cooling, less power output, and less required fuel.

Even though the airports are ~5000 foot elevation, at KLMO the DA was almost 8000' at the ground yesterday. On Sunday it was 8200' at ground level at KLMO. (http://www.awoslog.com, search for KLMO in the bottom left. You can see KBJC there as well) Non-turbo engines make around 25-30% less power up here so be prepared for a much longer roll out on takeoff and a bit quicker visual approach (your ASI is correct! your senses may tell you that you are a bit fast...). For our taildraggers actual touchdown speeds will be increased so be on your toes a bit at first.

Laramie area down to KFNL down to KBJC will be the lowest elevation and easiest flight. You will have quite the headwind on the way home that way, but in a 170 it is doable. I like Saratoga and use that as a shortcut to get back when the winds are not terrible (KSAA down to Walden Jackson area, due east around the WY CO border over to FNL, then south to the front range).

If you get a chance, read up on some mountain flying techniques (email contactflying on here) just so you understand the dynamics of what is going on for the off chance you experience some weather. The rotors and mountain wave out here will get your attention right quick on a clear day even for those of us who fly it every day. For most of us with lower performance airplanes, there is no way to "fight" the winds; you have to use them to your advantage however you can or avoid them.

All of that said, don't be intimidated by anything said above. Just be respectful of the weather out here, fly early, fly often, and you will have a great time!
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

Thank you. I got the new book from contactflying via email last night. I started reading it last night. Great info. I can't say thanks enough. I've been watching the weather between Rock Springs, Cheyenne, and Denver and it looks like I should try to be done flying by around 1:00??
What do you think?
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

Alpina23 wrote:Thank you. I got the new book from contactflying via email last night. I started reading it last night. Great info. I can't say thanks enough. I've been watching the weather between Rock Springs, Cheyenne, and Denver and it looks like I should try to be done flying by around 1:00??
What do you think?


Today all day has been absolutely gorgeous with just a bit of buildup out on the plains. Yesterday the thunderstorms rolled through around 2PM and only rained randomly up and and down the front range. So, unfortunately, you are going to have to play it by ear (or eye) and see what you are presented with. Normally however, the earlier you fly the better the conditions are around here. I imagine the coast is the same, but the thunderstorms out here can build quick and the virga is nothing to screw around with. Visibility is generally not a problem in the summer time; thunderstorms are.

If you watch the hourly wind speeds over a few days you will see that the winds tend to kick up pretty good there in Rock Springs/Laramie/Cheyenne/etc as the day goes on. So, earlier the better up there as well. This sign is only partially kidding, especially in southern Wyoming:

Image

If I am going to try and actually get somewhere in my little PA-11, I try to get it over with by noon-ish depending on the fronts moving in or out. If I want to have some fun and get kicked around a bit, I will wait until later in the afternoon and play in the foothills looking for thermals and/or orographic lift while trying to avoid the rotors.

I wouldn't hesitate to fly a 172 anywhere east of the foothills most any time of day in the summertime out here (and would pick my battles wisely attempting to go west directly over the rocks and not around them). I am not sure how that translates to you in a 170, but hopefully that gives you some more confidence.
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

I'm familiar with your area--we come out that way fairly frequently, as Marilyn grew up in Aberdeen. But it sure is lowlands, compared to this part of the world.

I've spent most of my flying life in the high country, after first learning to fly in Anchorage in late 72 and 73. I instructed in Laramie for several years in the 70s and 80s, in 160hp 172s, and I did SE charter all over Wyoming and northern Colorado, mostly in 182s. So I have some suggestions.

Lean properly! If you haven't yet flown your airplane very high, do so, so that you can get the feel for how much less power you have at altitude, even leaning properly. When taking off from a high elevation airport, lean on the ground during the run-up. There are those who say that you must do it at full power--I disagree. Use normal run-up rpm, pull the mixture out until the rpm just begins to drop, then back in about half an inch or so. If you have more sophisticated instruments than the average 170, then use them to adjust mixture to best power. I find that I don't do any better with my Insight engine analyzer than just the method I just described.

With 170hp, you shouldn't have too much trouble maintaining a decent altitude. Since your experience in the rocks is limited, I suggest that you just climb up to 11,500' and stay there for much of your trip. You have 2 major mountain ranges to cross, the Cascades east of you and the Wasatches east of the Salt Lake valley, and it's best if you have your altitude well before getting there--don't ever try to climb up to the crossing altitude as the elevation rises below you. One specific place, if you fly as far south as Salt Lake--don't try to climb up Parleys Canyon east of Salt Lake (that's where I-80 runs)--again, get your altitude before hand. For one thing, locals often come down through Parleys westbound, and there's not lots of room to miss them.

You didn't indicate where you plan to stop. I wouldn't recommend some of the places others have suggested, only because of your limited experience in the mountains. I like Granby, and I love Marble, but they're on the west side of the rocks you really should avoid, and they are no place for inexperience. Similarly, some of the favorite spots in Idaho aren't for inexperience. As far as cities go, Pocatello and Idaho Falls and Twin Falls are nice. Small towns: hard to beat Afton, WY, home of Aviat which builds Huskys. I wouldn't recommend any of the other towns in southern Wyoming until Laramie, mostly because of distance to town from the airport, unless you decide to stop at Saratoga.

Following I-80 across southern Wyoming is best, to MBW, then south to Laramie and on south to KBJC. I would not recommend cutting the corner toward Saratoga, unless you plan to lay over there--it is a nice tourist stop, and it's easy walking distance into town from the airport. If you do go to Saratoga, leave by following the extended centerline of runway 5, which points at a saddle between Elk Mountain and the Snowy Range (aka Medicine Bow Mountains on the sectional). Unless you're familiar with the territory, it's easy to get confused if you try going southeast, and you can easily find yourself on the west side of the mountains. If you go through the saddle, then on toward Laramie, that's the easiest.

When actually crossing mountain ranges, early in the day is best. But otherwise, I've flown all over the west at all different times of the day (and except in the mountains per se, at night, too), and it's not an issue. It's usually windy, but not overly difficult, other than when you head back home, you'll undoubtedly fight a headwind.

If you have specific questions, please ask. Lots of very experienced pilots on this board who are anxious to help.

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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

I've had SOOO much good input. I really appreciate it. I'm soaking it all in and studying the maps with the given suggestions. My intention was to camp under the wing along the way (two nights). With my lack of experience in this terrain, maybe thats unrealistic unless I can land at some of these suggested asphalt strips and pull off in the grass to camp. For example, I was considering 28U for first night, although its not very far along my trip. Might be better if I cover more ground instead. Still working on it......
Rest assured, I reading everyones suggestions and taking them seriously. Afterall, I do plan on this being a round trip :)

Cary, I was born and raised in Aberdeen and still work there. We recently moved out of town for better weather and room to have an airstrip at home.

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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

Owyhee (28U) is an awesome spot to camp! You won't regret it if you decide to stay the night there.
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

I also think I'm going to take the recommendation to fly into KLMO, assuming I can get a rental car, which is my next call.
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

Alpina23 wrote:... I was born and raised in Aberdeen and still work there. We recently moved out of town for better weather and room to have an airstrip at home. Jeff


Whereabouts near Elma is your home strip? I live in Pt Townsend & get down your way once in a while, and know of a few down there: "My Airport", Bear Valley, the one NW of Oakville (Thun's?), and Kimbrel's.

I owned a 170 for a number of years & (used to) know a lot of local 170 pilots. The only 170 I can recall ever seeing with a 340 conversion was owned by a guy named Fred who like you lived in the Elma area. That one isn't yours now, is it?
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

Alpina23 wrote:I also think I'm going to take the recommendation to fly into KLMO, assuming I can get a rental car, which is my next call.


Fly Elite Aviation is the FBO on the field and they are all great people. They are one of the few in the area that still do tailwheel instruction in a trio of Citabrias and there are a ton of cool planes in the hangars there. Getting a tie down there should be no hassle at all. My hangar is there as well so if there are any tools or maintenance you need to do you can set up shop.

KLMO is ~25-40 minutes north of BJC by car depending on the time of day if that matters to you for your Thursday meetings. I live in Denver and it takes me ~60 minutes to get up to KLMO (again depending on time of day and traffic).

For Denver access you have quite a few airport options but KLMO and KBDU are the closest non-towered airports. You could go to BJC, KAPA, or KFTG as well which are closer but busier and all delta airspace. APA is always busy with FTG and BJC being a bit calmer (in my limited experience with FTG and APA. I fly in and out of BJC all of the time). Note that all of them flirt with the Denver Class Bravo airspace so unless you are on with Approach you want to be careful to stay out of it.

I have always wanted to stay in Saratoga (as well as Afton for the obvious reason). Cary can correct me if I am wrong, but I think he was suggesting something similar to this route if you were to stop there for a night:

http://skyvector.com/?ll=40.78830540301 ... :A.K2.KBJC

I agree with him 100% on not going any further south than Saratoga to come across the rocks for your first trip out here.

(Listen to Cary, he knows what he is talking about :) )
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

The route SE of Saratoga by Foxpark is another option, and is more scenic than up north and it saves a little time. The Zirkels and Rawahs are a nice addition to any trip after leaving the beige Wyoming flats behind, and you'll get to see a good part of Rocky Mountain National Park to boot along the front range.

Everyone has their opinion, but lots of people scoot around to Steamboat or other places with no problems while staying down low and going around things. I don't think a person is going to run into any challenges with your equipment with good planning and good weather mornings with really low winds aloft (say, <20kts@12k). 12k' is plenty to get over Cameron in those conditions. If you get to, I doubt you'll regret the junket if you like scenery. If the weather doesn't cooperate, or you cannot get there early in the day, you could run all the way around it as mentioned. For some, skirting the edges of the foothills like this was the highlight of their first trip through the higher Rockies.
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Re: Trip plan; western WA to Denver

You nailed it Hotrod. Fred is not ready to quit flying quite yet but isn't flying much. He was willing to sell my 50% and I can buy the rest when he decides he's done. Until then, he openly declares it 's "my plane" and I can do what I want. He will fly around the pattern now and then. He is also willing to just fly it from my house as soon as my hangar is done. Its been parked at my house for almost a month now while I made some upgrades.
Our place is up the Satsop River valley a little north and west of Elma.

I may do Port Townsend this weekend if I can fit it in. I need to get a delivery to Summer Martell. If she's not around, I'll be looking for someone to leave it with. It's a bee hive (without bees). I think it will fit in the plane :)
She doesn't know I'm planning this..... shhhhhh...
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