Happened to me last Satuday in Page, AZ (KPGA). I hadn't been to the airport since last summer and we were just getting gas. I pulled up to the FBO and noticed new lines painted on the ramp that said "restricted area". I stopped before the lines and before we could get out of the plane the FBO guy ran out and told me to pull around to the side and thanked me for not crossing the new line. I asked what was going on and he said that is the new TSA area. Page has a few flights a week from Great Lakes Airlines in Beech 1900's that come in and has the new rules. We still had freedom on the other side of the terminal, no one asked for any badges. I would have liked to see a TSA guy try to stop my wife from going to the bathroom, all hell would have broken out. We might be in jail or had a TSA guy with pee on his boots!
Jim
TSA security directive
Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:24 pm
Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:46 pm
kevbert wrote:OscarDuece, I agree that the AOPA hasn't been representing my interests, and I'd join an aggressive aviation organization that was modeled after the NRA in a heartbeat.
I think one of the things that really contributes to the NRA's effectiveness is their NRA-ILA program (institute for legislative action) that lobbies legislators, slaps lawsuits on organizations to defend our rights, etc.
I'd love to see the TSA get tied up with a bunch of lawsuits.
One problem is that unlike gun owners, pilot and airplane owners are a tiny percentage of the U.S. population. A common estimate is that half of the U.S. population owns guns, and the NRA only managed to achieve a little over 4 million members. What percentage of the 597,000 certificated pilots would join, and how much clout does that give you?
I think the organization would have to find some powerful friends in order to achieve success. Maybe the FAA could be persuaded to become an ally. They seem pretty serious about safety, and the number one type of GA accidents are weather related. All of the time required to comply with the newly proposed stupid TSA requirements of submitting passenger manifests and going through security and creating sterile areas all takes time away from windows of opportunity for good flying during times of bad weather. In other words, I think a decent argument could be made that instituting and complying with their new proposed regulations will end up getting people killed.
Regardless of the means, something must be done quickly to stop this attack on our freedoms before it's too late.
Sadly I think we have one foot in the grave, when I started calling pilot organizations aopa's response to me was that they were aware of it and there wasn't much they could do. Then told me we were going to have more security restrictions in the near future. I am considering not renewing membership. I'm also not all that impressed with NRA, they only prosper when things are going against the gun owners. We have started fighting this here locally, please join in as it's coming to an airport near you. On a positive note there is a rumor that one of the front range airports told them to jump in the lake. TSA responded they would loose commercial service at their airport. Airport supposedly responded to go ahead and try it. Hope it's true, more of us need to stand up.
- Meat Servo offline
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Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:49 pm
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. "
Thomas Jefferson - Letter to William Stevens Smith (November 13, 1787), quoted in Padover's Jefferson On Democracy
As Deven just pointed out, is that these government boobs need the occasional person to tell them flat out "NO". They'll huff and puff, but when it really comes down to it, they are more than likely going to go back and review the policy, rather than forcibly impose it. The trick is to go out and find powerful and influential people who side with you to oppose them as well.
Let's suppose the AOPA came out and told every airport owner in the country to tell the TSA to go jump in a lake. Would they shut down every FBO in the country? I doubt it.
Now the real question is do we have the will to do what it takes? It's easy for me to sit at my desk and tell you all I do, but when the chips are down and some guy from TSA with a pretend badge on his shirt is telling me I'm going to jail............ who knows? After the recent election, I bought myself a brand new "pitchfork" if that's any indication.
Thomas Jefferson - Letter to William Stevens Smith (November 13, 1787), quoted in Padover's Jefferson On Democracy
As Deven just pointed out, is that these government boobs need the occasional person to tell them flat out "NO". They'll huff and puff, but when it really comes down to it, they are more than likely going to go back and review the policy, rather than forcibly impose it. The trick is to go out and find powerful and influential people who side with you to oppose them as well.
Let's suppose the AOPA came out and told every airport owner in the country to tell the TSA to go jump in a lake. Would they shut down every FBO in the country? I doubt it.
Now the real question is do we have the will to do what it takes? It's easy for me to sit at my desk and tell you all I do, but when the chips are down and some guy from TSA with a pretend badge on his shirt is telling me I'm going to jail............ who knows? After the recent election, I bought myself a brand new "pitchfork" if that's any indication.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson
Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:47 pm
GumpAir wrote:OscarDeuce wrote:I have noticed more interest in pushing back by the folks on this forum than on alot of other aviation forums. Maybe backcountry pilots are a bit more self sufficient?
I think some of the recent threads here on BCP, re: field repairs and FAA actions have drawn a huge line in the sand between the "rights" vs. "privilege" people who post here. I get the feeling from the reactions to my posts, that we "rights" people are the minority, and looked upon as cranky, dangerous old assholes, who are just one roll of duct tape and can of safety wire away from bringing further FAA wrath down upon the entire flying world.
Though in everyone's defense.... I AM a cranky old asshole. And probably dangerous as hell when up in an airplane.
Gump
Believe me gump I'm on the "rights" side.
The grumpy old asshole comments from me are for my own sense of humor. And it is FUNNY in my mind.
- Terry offline
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Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:23 pm
I am on ...
....the RIGHTS side also. But I am also on the side of being young forever. Both "sides" have exactly the same result.
Until the FARs are changed....exercising the privileges of an airman's certificate is just that..... a PRIVLEGE. There is not a damned thing about such a RIGHT in the constitution of the United States. Although if aviation had been around in the late 1700s I am sure that Tom, Ben, James and the boys would have made it a RIGHT.
That being said...we should never stop fighting to retain and expand our privilege.
In the mean time.... If some of us chose to fly without a licence, without a physical, without having ever had a single minute of flight instruction.... then bravo say I. Have at it! Go for it. But try to exercise your RIGHTS at Chicago O'Hare: park your SuperCub...walk up to a United 747, kick the tires.........do they have access to backcountypilots.org in Federal Prisons?
Not a few among us have done what ever in the hell we wanted to do for most of our lives: hoped that we would never get caught....but have beeen willing to pay the Piper should all else fail.
Gentlemen...I am 61 year of age....among the last to have lived in an era of real freedom. My dad and grandfather are rolling in their graves.
Bob
....the RIGHTS side also. But I am also on the side of being young forever. Both "sides" have exactly the same result.
Until the FARs are changed....exercising the privileges of an airman's certificate is just that..... a PRIVLEGE. There is not a damned thing about such a RIGHT in the constitution of the United States. Although if aviation had been around in the late 1700s I am sure that Tom, Ben, James and the boys would have made it a RIGHT.
That being said...we should never stop fighting to retain and expand our privilege.
In the mean time.... If some of us chose to fly without a licence, without a physical, without having ever had a single minute of flight instruction.... then bravo say I. Have at it! Go for it. But try to exercise your RIGHTS at Chicago O'Hare: park your SuperCub...walk up to a United 747, kick the tires.........do they have access to backcountypilots.org in Federal Prisons?
Not a few among us have done what ever in the hell we wanted to do for most of our lives: hoped that we would never get caught....but have beeen willing to pay the Piper should all else fail.
Gentlemen...I am 61 year of age....among the last to have lived in an era of real freedom. My dad and grandfather are rolling in their graves.
Bob
Living the Dream
Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:45 pm
For those of you who haven't seen it yet, watch, "Taking Chance." A movie starring Kevin Bacon on HBO about Lieutenant Colonel Michael Strobl escorting the remains of Lance Corporal Chance Phelps home to Wyoming, after the young Marine was KIA in Iraq in 2004.
You see the TSA in action when LTC Strobl tries to get through airport security in uniform, carrying the young man's personal effects. TSA is rude, cold, and indifferent, even though the agent knows full well what Strobl's mission is, and demands he disrobe in public and submit to search. Thankfully Lt. Col. Strobl doesn't give in to the completely out of line demands, and refuses to dishonor his uniform and his duty...
It's a true story, and makes me mad enough to spit nails just sitting here typing this. And it isn't just my beloved Corps that will continue to be treated like this, it's all of us.
Gump
You see the TSA in action when LTC Strobl tries to get through airport security in uniform, carrying the young man's personal effects. TSA is rude, cold, and indifferent, even though the agent knows full well what Strobl's mission is, and demands he disrobe in public and submit to search. Thankfully Lt. Col. Strobl doesn't give in to the completely out of line demands, and refuses to dishonor his uniform and his duty...
It's a true story, and makes me mad enough to spit nails just sitting here typing this. And it isn't just my beloved Corps that will continue to be treated like this, it's all of us.
Gump
Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:29 pm
TSA
Can you say: Sturmabteilung or Arbeit macht frei ?
Unless someone in DC dismantles this behemoth our freedoms remain in jeopardy.
Unless someone in DC dismantles this behemoth our freedoms remain in jeopardy.
Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:29 pm
z3skybolt wrote:Until the FARs are changed....exercising the privileges of an airman's certificate is just that..... a PRIVLEGE. There is not a damned thing about such a RIGHT in the constitution of the United States. Although if aviation had been around in the late 1700s I am sure that Tom, Ben, James and the boys would have made it a RIGHT.
Bob
Z3skybolt, you are correct that the constitution does not explicitly mention aviation. However, the TSA is stomping on plenty of rights that are covered by the constitution.
One of their strongest arguments has been that you are consenting to a search by taking a commercial airline flight. If you don't want to be searched, then take a private conveyance. However, their latest proposals would require that you submit to illegal searches and seizures or they will prevent you from accessing your own property. And that is flat out unconstitutional. I pay rent for the storage of my airplane. As a result, there is plenty of legal precedent for property rights as well, which they cannot deny me without due process of law.
Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:35 pm
Besides, we need all that security to save lives!
https://www.checkpointusa.org/blog/index.php/2008/02/23/p87
https://www.checkpointusa.org/blog/index.php/2008/02/23/p87
Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:09 pm
- Terry offline
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Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:00 am
z3skybolt wrote:Until the FARs are changed....exercising the privileges of an airman's certificate is just that..... a PRIVLEGE. There is not a damned thing about such a RIGHT in the constitution of the United States. Although if aviation had been around in the late 1700s I am sure that Tom, Ben, James and the boys would have made it a RIGHT.
As much a defender of our great constitution as I am, just because it isn't expressly identified as a "right" in that document doesn't mean it isn't. Rights are inherent in the human condition. Just because some goon with a gun says "it a privilege and I'll decide who get's to do it and who doesn't," that doesn't make it any less a right. However, governments will try to take your rights away - that's just the nature of the beast. It's where the playground bullies go to get jobs when they grow up. None of this is really about security. May I politely point out that since 9/11, more people have dies at the hands of the TSA within the borders of the USA than by any terrorist.
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Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:07 am
Deven wrote:kevbert wrote: We have started fighting this here locally, please join in as it's coming to an airport near you. On a positive note there is a rumor that one of the front range airports told them to jump in the lake. TSA responded they would loose commercial service at their airport. Airport supposedly responded to go ahead and try it. Hope it's true, more of us need to stand up.
Deven:
How can we help support your local initiative?
- OscarDeuce offline
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Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:01 pm
O2,
The folks at the MTJ meeting organized 3 groups, individual pilots, business, and the airport authority. All three are working on a letter each to be signed and sent to whomever will listen, politicians, TSA etc. I can try to post either the letters or the main points of the letters here if you like. To me the best help would be for folks all over the U.S. to fight it in their local. One little group of us out here in the west isn't even going to phase those folks living in the twilight zone of D.C. Main reason I posted here is because no one seems to be aware of what they are trying to do to us.
The folks at the MTJ meeting organized 3 groups, individual pilots, business, and the airport authority. All three are working on a letter each to be signed and sent to whomever will listen, politicians, TSA etc. I can try to post either the letters or the main points of the letters here if you like. To me the best help would be for folks all over the U.S. to fight it in their local. One little group of us out here in the west isn't even going to phase those folks living in the twilight zone of D.C. Main reason I posted here is because no one seems to be aware of what they are trying to do to us.
- Meat Servo offline
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Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:43 pm
Deven wrote:O2,
The folks at the MTJ meeting organized 3 groups, individual pilots, business, and the airport authority. All three are working on a letter each to be signed and sent to whomever will listen, politicians, TSA etc. I can try to post either the letters or the main points of the letters here if you like. To me the best help would be for folks all over the U.S. to fight it in their local. One little group of us out here in the west isn't even going to phase those folks living in the twilight zone of D.C. Main reason I posted here is because no one seems to be aware of what they are trying to do to us.
The vice president of our EAA chapter's son is a US Congressman from Nebraska...I'll see what our chapter or us as individuals can do. I will also personally get ahold of our Nebraska state senator from this district to talk to him. I was at the Unicameral (state capitol) at Lincoln several weeks ago but could not catch him there.
I will do what I can individually and/or with a group to help voice my/our concerns when it comes to our personal freedoms.
Please let me know what I can do..letters, emails, etc.
HC
Last edited by hicountry on Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'05 7GCBC High Country Explorer
The faster I go , the farther behind I get.
The faster I go , the farther behind I get.
Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:38 pm
Hicountry's post raises a question in my mind - what is the EAA's position in all this? I'm not a member (although perhaps I should be) because I never seriously expected to build my own airplane. But, I have visited their website and it seems like they are the closest thing to a big, established organization that represents folks like us. Anyone care to share their insight?
- OscarDeuce offline
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Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:07 pm
GumpAir wrote:For those of you who haven't seen it yet, watch, "Taking Chance." A movie starring Kevin Bacon on HBO about Lieutenant Colonel Michael Strobl escorting the remains of Lance Corporal Chance Phelps home to Wyoming, after the young Marine was KIA in Iraq in 2004.
You see the TSA in action when LTC Strobl tries to get through airport security in uniform, carrying the young man's personal effects. TSA is rude, cold, and indifferent, even though the agent knows full well what Strobl's mission is, and demands he disrobe in public and submit to search. Thankfully Lt. Col. Strobl doesn't give in to the completely out of line demands, and refuses to dishonor his uniform and his duty...
It's a true story, and makes me mad enough to spit nails just sitting here typing this. And it isn't just my beloved Corps that will continue to be treated like this, it's all of us.
Gump
Gump...
A few years ago Joe Foss: a former Governor of South Dakota, WW-2 Fighter pilot and winner of the Medal of Honor was trying to board a flight in Pheonix. The purpose of the flight was to attend a gathering in which he would be the honored speaker, discuss his service to our nation and the Medal of Honor. He had the Medal on his person.
The TSA took the medal away from him claiming that its "STAR" shape could be used as a weapon. The agent didn't even know what the Medal of Honor was!! When told that it could be used as a weapon by a terrorist on board the flight....Joe Foss, a man of 80 responded...."I'd grab it away from him and knock him on his ass!"
Maybe these hard economic times will put some backbone into the wimps that Americans have become. Life has too long been too soft for too many.
Bob
Living the Dream
Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:40 pm
Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:58 pm
bcpstudent wrote:http://www.nmatv.com/video/1115/Milton-Friedman-and-Phil-Donahue--1979
Great find! Interesting how Phil the listened.
Cheers
- OregonMaule offline
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My SPOT page
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety". Ben Franklin
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety". Ben Franklin
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin
Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:21 pm
RobBurson wrote:Great find! Interesting how Phil the listened.
Cheers
Is there supposed to be a word between the and listened. May I sugjest "Utopian A-hole"
Tim
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