I'm thinking of starting a company called Voodoo VG's to sell, VG's. What do you guys think?

Ok, I'm just kidding but since the VG question has surfaced recently in a couple of different threads I thought I'd shine a light on the subject from what I know and what I've learned.

Do VG's in general work? Absolutely positively. Do all manufacturers VG's work? Some better than others. Some have been tested and have real numbers, some just have claims.

Understand that the manufacturers of VG's have changed over the years. Partnerships formed and broken. STC's bought and sold, many times. Fortunately if you are willing to do the research, go down the rabbit holes, you can eventually find a significant amount of the original data. If you are too lazy to do that research than believe whatever you want from the dozens of Internet Ninjas out there that have no idea what they are talking about and are just parroting what they've heard.

Know this, the location of the VG's is critical to their performance. And the "best" location may not be where the STC says to place them. But doing something different, as MTV likes to point out, makes you a test pilot. And I'm not even talking about the legality. I'm simply saying there MAY be a better place to put them on a wing.

How do I know this? Because I have witnessed it first hand. I've seen them in a non-standard location on an otherwise stock wing, and I've flown numerous times with that plane and seen it consistently perform nearly as well as the SQ-2. And that is all I will say on that subject so don't ask.

What VG's do I like. BLR. Why? Because these were developed and tested by Paul Robertson and have actual numbers associated with them (for at least some of the aircraft models). My guess is that actual numbers exist for every model because Robertson published numbers for all his other mods, but have been lost over the years.

My current 185 has Micro VG's (no actual numbers published) but as soon as she gets Sportsmans she'll get BLR VG's and Delta Wings.

I'll leave you with this video:

I agree, I prefer the BLR VGs, the stepped placement of them on the Piper wing makes a lot of sense as far as getting the most out if them.

Barnstormer wrote:I'm thinking of starting a company called Voodoo VG's to sell, VG's. What do you guys think?

Ok, I'm just kidding but since the VG question has surfaced recently in a couple of different threads I thought I'd shine a light on the subject from what I know and what I've learned.

Do VG's in general work? Absolutely positively. Do all manufacturers VG's work? Some better than others. Some have been tested and have real numbers, some just have claims.

Understand that the manufacturers of VG's have changed over the years. Partnerships formed and broken. STC's bought and sold, many times. Fortunately if you are willing to do the research, go down the rabbit holes, you can eventually find a significant amount of the original data. If you are too lazy to do that research than believe whatever you want from the dozens of Internet Ninjas out there that have no idea what they are talking about and are just parroting what they've heard.

Know this, the location of the VG's is critical to their performance. And the "best" location may not be where the STC says to place them. But doing something different, as MTV likes to point out, makes you a test pilot. And I'm not even talking about the legality. I'm simply saying there MAY be a better place to put them on a wing.

How do I know this? Because I have witnessed it first hand. I've seen them in a non-standard location on an otherwise stock wing, and I've flown numerous times with that plane and seen it consistently perform nearly as well as the SQ-2. And that is all I will say on that subject so don't ask.

What VG's do I like. BLR. Why? Because these were developed and tested by Paul Robertson and have actual numbers associated with them (for at least some of the aircraft models). My guess is that actual numbers exist for every model because Robertson published numbers for all his other mods, but have been lost over the years.

My current 185 has Micro VG's (no actual numbers published) but as soon as she gets Sportsmans she'll get BLR VG's and Delta Wings.

I'll leave you with this video:

Just went to the CC site and see they sell the BLR VG's for my C182p. However there are no photos. I see they are installed in 2 locations on the wing rather than one continuous location like the Micro VG. With all his experience, I would trust Robertsons positions over Microair as well. On the BLR kit, are VG's also placed on the Elevator and rudder like MicroAir? One thing I would like is more elevator authority with the heavy nose on the 182p. Suppose with the required STC process if you were to also include Certified airframes that if I want them sooner than later the BLR is likely my best option? How do you intend to test yours? Are they a different design? What is your timeframe?

I am a vendor to Cubcrafters as the sell my Gopro camera mounts. Wonder if I can get a vendor discount... That's my first call in the morning.

Addicted2climbing wrote:

Barnstormer wrote:I'm thinking of starting a company called Voodoo VG's to sell, VG's. What do you guys think?

Ok, I'm just kidding but since the VG question has surfaced recently in a couple of different threads I thought I'd shine a light on the subject from what I know and what I've learned.

Do VG's in general work? Absolutely positively. Do all manufacturers VG's work? Some better than others. Some have been tested and have real numbers, some just have claims.

Understand that the manufacturers of VG's have changed over the years. Partnerships formed and broken. STC's bought and sold, many times. Fortunately if you are willing to do the research, go down the rabbit holes, you can eventually find a significant amount of the original data. If you are too lazy to do that research than believe whatever you want from the dozens of Internet Ninjas out there that have no idea what they are talking about and are just parroting what they've heard.

Know this, the location of the VG's is critical to their performance. And the "best" location may not be where the STC says to place them. But doing something different, as MTV likes to point out, makes you a test pilot. And I'm not even talking about the legality. I'm simply saying there MAY be a better place to put them on a wing.

How do I know this? Because I have witnessed it first hand. I've seen them in a non-standard location on an otherwise stock wing, and I've flown numerous times with that plane and seen it consistently perform nearly as well as the SQ-2. And that is all I will say on that subject so don't ask.

What VG's do I like. BLR. Why? Because these were developed and tested by Paul Robertson and have actual numbers associated with them (for at least some of the aircraft models). My guess is that actual numbers exist for every model because Robertson published numbers for all his other mods, but have been lost over the years.

My current 185 has Micro VG's (no actual numbers published) but as soon as she gets Sportsmans she'll get BLR VG's and Delta Wings.

I'll leave you with this video:

Just went to the CC site and see they sell the BLR VG's for my C182p. However there are no photos. I see they are installed in 2 locations on the wing rather than one continuous location like the Micro VG. With all his experience, I would trust Robertsons positions over Microair as well. On the BLR kit, are VG's also placed on the Elevator and rudder like MicroAir? One thing I would like is more elevator authority with the heavy nose on the 182p. Suppose with the required STC process if you were to also include Certified airframes that if I want them sooner than later the BLR is likely my best option? How do you intend to test yours? Are they a different design? What is your timeframe?

I am a vendor to Cubcrafters as the sell my Gopro camera mounts. Wonder if I can get a vendor discount... That's my first call in the morning.

They don't do VGs under the horizontal stab, but they have a little delta wing that goes at the inboard of the wing root. My understanding is rhat this accomplishes the same thing as the horizontal mounted VGs.

Addicted2climbing wrote:

Barnstormer wrote:I'm thinking of starting a company called Voodoo VG's to sell, VG's. What do you guys think?

Ok, I'm just kidding but since the VG question has surfaced recently in a couple of different threads I thought I'd shine a light on the subject from what I know and what I've learned.

Do VG's in general work? Absolutely positively. Do all manufacturers VG's work? Some better than others. Some have been tested and have real numbers, some just have claims.

Understand that the manufacturers of VG's have changed over the years. Partnerships formed and broken. STC's bought and sold, many times. Fortunately if you are willing to do the research, go down the rabbit holes, you can eventually find a significant amount of the original data. If you are too lazy to do that research than believe whatever you want from the dozens of Internet Ninjas out there that have no idea what they are talking about and are just parroting what they've heard.

Know this, the location of the VG's is critical to their performance. And the "best" location may not be where the STC says to place them. But doing something different, as MTV likes to point out, makes you a test pilot. And I'm not even talking about the legality. I'm simply saying there MAY be a better place to put them on a wing.

How do I know this? Because I have witnessed it first hand. I've seen them in a non-standard location on an otherwise stock wing, and I've flown numerous times with that plane and seen it consistently perform nearly as well as the SQ-2. And that is all I will say on that subject so don't ask.

What VG's do I like. BLR. Why? Because these were developed and tested by Paul Robertson and have actual numbers associated with them (for at least some of the aircraft models). My guess is that actual numbers exist for every model because Robertson published numbers for all his other mods, but have been lost over the years.

My current 185 has Micro VG's (no actual numbers published) but as soon as she gets Sportsmans she'll get BLR VG's and Delta Wings.

I'll leave you with this video:

Just went to the CC site and see they sell the BLR VG's for my C182p. However there are no photos. I see they are installed in 2 locations on the wing rather than one continuous location like the Micro VG. With all his experience, I would trust Robertsons positions over Microair as well. On the BLR kit, are VG's also placed on the Elevator and rudder like MicroAir? One thing I would like is more elevator authority with the heavy nose on the 182p. Suppose with the required STC process if you were to also include Certified airframes that if I want them sooner than later the BLR is likely my best option? How do you intend to test yours? Are they a different design? What is your timeframe?

I am a vendor to Cubcrafters as the sell my Gopro camera mounts. Wonder if I can get a vendor discount... That's my first call in the morning.

Having more elevator authority was the main reason I installed VGs on my 182 and it worked, in my case I have the VGs under the horizontal (Microaero kit).
I do have the BLR kit on my CJ6 Nanchang, VGs on the wing only, I bought it this way , so dont know how it was before. but wonder how much would it help to add them at the horizontal stab, seen one CJ6 with them.

Bob Deroche is a VERY smart guy. I had the pleasure of spending a few hours one day with him as he educated me on VGs, airfoils, etc. he has some phenomenal video of tufted wings in flight test, that really illustrate how they work.

And, I agree with Jim Richmond that the BLR kits are much better researched and designed than “brand M”.

MTV

mtv wrote:Bob Deroche is a VERY smart guy. I had the pleasure of spending a few hours one day with him as he educated me on VGs, airfoils, etc. he has some phenomenal video of tufted wings in flight test, that really illustrate how they work.

And, I agree with Jim Richmond that the BLR kits are much better researched and designed than “brand M”.

MTV

Yep! I agree Mike.

Kurt

Addicted2climbing wrote:One thing I would like is more elevator authority with the heavy nose on the 182p. Suppose with the required STC process if you were to also include Certified airframes that if I want them sooner than later the BLR is likely my best option? How do you intend to test yours? Are they a different design? What is your timeframe?

During the video Paul Robertson says the the Delta Wing energizes the vertical, no mention about the horizontal. Both the 185's I've owned have sufficient elevator authority so that was never something I was concerned about so can't speak to your question about that.

I did dig into the documents I've accumulated hoping to find something specifically about the Delta Wings themselves but don't have anything. I do have the BLR/ATS documents for the A185F (both of my Skywagons were/are this model) that list the stall speed reductions (which are significant) and the Supplemental POH for the VG's.

Regarding the install of the BLR's on my current wagon once the Sportsmans is installed, they'll go in the same location they were placed on my previous 185 when I had the Sportsmans installed on it. Willie Stene did the work on that one.

Timeframe? Sometime in 2022, probably late.

Had the delta wing things on a 185. Very hard on wing covers. I’d leave them off a Sportman’d Cessna.

Going to start popping the [emoji535][emoji1]

Barnstormer wrote:
During the video Paul Robertson says the the Delta Wing energizes the vertical, no mention about the horizontal.....

Can someone post a photo of these "delta wings"?
I believe that GlasStar has something very similar that they put on the leading edge of the Sportsman wings--
one near the wing root and another one about where the flap & aileron meet.

hotrod180 wrote:

Barnstormer wrote:
During the video Paul Robertson says the the Delta Wing energizes the vertical, no mention about the horizontal.....

Can someone post a photo of these "delta wings"?
I believe that GlasStar has something very similar that they put on the leading edge of the Sportsman wings--
one near the wing root and another one about where the flap & aileron meet.

Here you go.

Scroll through this thread for a pic

https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/180- ... -vgs-19507

Yes, Skinner's photo looks like the ones that GlasStar uses.