I'm looking to build or have built a Lycoming O-540 B model: Parallel valve, low compression, carbureted.

I'm at the point where I'm trying to figure out how to pay the least for the best engine that isn't constrained by certification or certified parts. ECI makes kits for 360's but I believe you still must supply your own case, as those only come from Pennsylvania. I think. No mention of 540's on their site.

A few people have recommended the Bearhawk designer himself, Bob Barrows, as a great engine builder, so I may pursue that. Where do the little guy engine builders get their components? What are alternatives to buying factory new certified Lycoming components?

Seems like finding good candidates for rebuild is a challenge too. Barnstormers is a crapshoot with what you end up with, and dumping $6-8K on a questionable core is kinda scary.

Anyway, what am I not aware of? What does a guy do if he's not a sponsored Red Bull Air Race pilot? Spending this much money requires me to dig deep into the coffers, and I want to avoid mistakes.

There was a place that would sell a zero time experimental IO-540 engine minus accessories for around $12K back in 2010. New engine and you choose the stuff. Not too bad and they had good reviews. I'll look up the place later. I know it was in Florida!

Bob Barrows is a great guy to work with, great small shop feel as it's mostly just him. He can source all the parts for you and I found his pricing to be excellent. I've got a few hundred hours on one of his o360's and have been happy. I highly recommend him.

Z - maybe call also to salvage guys and let them know you are looking. Sometimes good deals come along, with good logs.

Ps - haven't found those control knobs yet

Not much experience to share but I have talked to Bob several times about engines and he is very open with info and willing to share; I'd give him a call if I were you. He has a guy that does the actual assembly of the engines and he is a nice guy that will dig through the manuals to try and help answer questions. I think there is another guy that assist with engine assembly so it isn't just Bob doing all the work.

This is getting somewhat off topic but if I lived closer to Steve's Aircraft I'd see if they would help me source parts then once I had everything collected I'd go down and spend a few days in the shop with them and put it together. I think that would be a fantastic experience. I sat and watched Steve do some assembly and the O360 he was putting in his cub and he walked me through everything he was doing and even had me go look through their spares to find some stuff he needed.

I watched my engine get built, slowly, as parts came in--took a couple of months 10 years ago. It's an O-360, and the builder, Joe Folchert (Aircraft Cylinders & Engines--Greeley) is a wizard. Joe's shop is also small--him and a helper--so he does much of it himself. Good, honest work, fair prices--not cheap, fair. He has all sorts of sources for parts, not to mention that Beegles is right there for used parts.

He did a little "hopping up" to the extent authorized for a certificated engine--porting, polishing, balancing, My engine has a bit over 550 hours on it now, still runs a bit too hot on the back 2 cylinders, but has plenty of power and is smooth. I'm totally satisfied.

Cary

Zane wrote....

.... I've grown more attracted to the simplicity of a low compression, carbureted machine,...

I understand the low compression. I was wondering what moved you away from Injected say IO-540 ? Are you hoping to use autogas which might be a tad more finicky re injected vs carb ?

FWIW...Bob Barrows prefers carb over Injected as well.

Instead of all this talk about fuel injected or carb internal combustion engines, I have been looking at external combustion engines for aircraft. The video shows the advantages.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvQsvfa2N_c&html5=1

I have flown/maintained TIO540s and IO540s commercially and privately.

Would look for low compression/carburetor/mogas for backcountry ops. T/I/O540s are getting more expensive to operate each day. Simple = more fun. The propellers/governors are getting more each year too.

Take the least expensive route, those engines suck money fast! To fill a PA23-250C in Hawaii costs $1084 ! 25 flights and I could overhaul my Scout's O360 at TBO with the money spent.

my $0.02 (your milage may vary)

8GCBC wrote:I have flown/maintained TIO540s and IO540s commercially and privately.

Would look for low compression/carburetor/mogas for backcountry ops. T/I/O540s are getting more expensive to operate each day. Simple = more fun. The propellers/governors are getting more each year too.

Take the least expensive route, those engines suck money fast! To fill a PA23-250C in Hawaii costs $1084 ! 25 flights and I could overhaul my Scout's O360 at TBO with the money spent.

my $0.02 (your milage may vary)

Damn, that puts it into perspective doesn't it!

I have heard great things about the engine built by AeroSport in Canada. I don't think they are of the 'bargain' variety but the guys I have spoken with are extremely please with their engines.
Opps, just looked at their site and they do not show an O-520 but there are others they may fit your plane.

www.aerosportpower.com/

Because we wanted to put some of the nickels in our pocket, we old piston crop dusters used the O-540. Most are tweeked up to 250 or 260 hp now, but I liked the reliability and sound of the old 235 hp, carb, two mags, and fixed pitch. I sprayed alfalfa around Durango with that engine. Carried 120 gallons spray in a Pawnee with the extra full rib of the droop tips just fine.

Where is the lion's share of the building expense? The parts? The labor? Is there a significant price tag associated with injection systems? After watching too many people run their batteries dead trying to hot start injected motors, it seems like a liability. Unless there's an electronic FADEC system to really take advantage of injection, seems barely an improvement over a good old carb.

Am I nuts?

I hot start injected motors all the time - 360's and 540s. I know it happens, but not sure it's really a factor?

Zzz wrote:Where is the lion's share of the building expense? The parts? The labor? Is there a significant price tag associated with injection systems? After watching too many people run their batteries dead trying to hot start injected motors, it seems like a liability. Unless there's an electronic FADEC system to really take advantage of injection, seems barely an improvement over a good old carb.

Am I nuts?

Hot starting a legacy injected motor is just about learning the engine's particular needs. Once you know it's not too bad. My 185 is of course injected, my SQ-2 carbureted (she was built for Alaska). If I was flying in the Alaska backcountry I might prefer a carb so I could hand prop if the electrics went bad. But in the lower 48 my preference, if offered a choice, is fuel injection. Even the old mechanical injection systems, like on my wagon, are more efficient then carburetors.

I was flying alongside Atxcitab the other day. Was at the bottom of the green for rpm and mp, and needed 10 degrees of flaps so I could keep up with him. I went LOP and the fuel flow bottomed on the gauge, 4 gph. And I could go leaner still, a lot leaner - the engine running smooth. In the heat of the summer I can get the engine much cooler going LOP then going ROP if needed.

My SQ-2 on the other hand hates LOP. She starts running rough immediately. I've tried adding just a touch of carb heat but no help (oh yea, no carb icing to worry about with FI). When it comes time to overhaul her I will convert her to EFI. Some carbureted engines tolerate LOP, not as far as an injected engine (with GAMIs), but far enough.

Not sure about the Mogas question as both these planes require Avgas.

I agree on the hot start not being an issue once you figure out your technique for the specific installation. The one change I would make to my Maule is to add FI.........

I get along fine with an IO520, once you know how to start a particular hot engine, no problem. That's on floats, where getting it started before you drift into something can be critical .

Steve

Zzz
540 is just a 360 with 2 more jugs i believe so all the cylinder work is the same.
You might look into this, this is going on my 360 in the Glastar.
http://www.flyefii.com/customer_projects/CUZOOM/CUZOOM.htm
The flyefi is a complete setup, you can get all the parts and pieces for the same system from the manufacturer in Canada and do a lot of the work your self. http://www.sdsefi.com/ look at the emf-5f complete electronic ignition and fuel injection, modern parts and pieces!!
will run on anything!!(gas) You could bump the compression up, still have easy start and run on pump gas!! even the alcohol stuff if you make all the tank and piping alcohol proof.
They have been around now for awhile, good parts and not much bad ever said that I can find??
The other place to look for an engine is Lycon, They do exceptional cyl. work!!
Good luck, I have an old set of Maule exhaust if you want for mock up or what ever.

I also own a SDS system for electronic ignition and injection. Their systems are very easy to install and the customer service is great. There shouldn't be any hot start problems either as everything relevant can be custom setup with the programmer. A typical install runs at 12-16 amps including the fuel pump. With a backup battery there is plenty of engine time left to land the airplane in case the main battery and alternator fails. These systems are equally as reliable as a magneto as far as I am concerned and way more efficient in terms of HP and fuel burn. If you eliminate avgas (plug fouling) and magnetos there is no real need for a dual ignition system either. Just my 2 cents.
I am restoring a Republic Seabee at the moment and it will have the Robinson V8 engine conversion in it. Probably too much HP for the Bearhawk. Traditional aircraft engines are old technology and very inefficient.

Zzz wrote: After watching too many people run their batteries dead trying to hot start injected motors, it seems like a liability.

Having never flown injected before my Bearhawk, the learning curve was, how shall I say... flat. Hot starting is just another start from my experience PROVIDED you follow the instructions. If you get it completely wrong, again, read the manual, and you will get it second-try every time...
The problem must come when guys try to second-guess the engine, get impatient because onlookers up the pressure, or if you just straight-up can't follow the same process every time.
Fuel injection is awesome. Carb ice is nasty stuff.

-540 Options I found:
Buy new - Thunderbird from Lycoming, bring $$$,$$$
Bob Barrows, new or used parts, you choose, pay as you go. Bob uses ECI parts if you want new.
Other unknown engine shops - probably want to get a few recommendations before laying down $$, the horror stories are out there.
Buy second hand mid-time from an Aztec / Twin Commanche etc, cheap but more risk with an unknown history.

Why doesn't hand propping work with EFI? What makes the juice squirt on startup?