So, I got an insurance quote on a Bearhawk on floats and I nearly soiled myself. Hoping it's an experimental anomaly, I just asked my agent to quote a Maule seaplane for me. I expect that it won't be cheap, but I'm hoping for a better quote than what I got on the Bearhawk (for reference, one was $10K!). I hope to hear back in a couple of days. I'm sure it won't be cheap, especially with what I hope to be a fresh SES by the end of the season.

How many of you all fly floats and can't imagine life without it? I hate that the insurance companies dictate what I can fly, but that's the reality of it all. Float insurance is a lot of avgas! Self insuring really isn't an option for me, though.

I'd continue to fly on wheels, regardless. It sure would be choice to be able to pull up to the lake cabin on floaters, though. But I've got limits...

I've only got a little float time, but I already can't imagine life without it. It is my favorite, hands down.

I wonder if premiums on floats are based primarily on a fixed risk factor and increased hull value? Or if it also factors in float time and float time in type?

Float insurance assumes you’re most likely to use it with the plane in the water.

Which implies a couple of things:

Odds are that someone drowned in the process.

And, recovery is expensive and often damages (destroys) what’s left of the seaplane.

Seaplane recovery isn’t hard, and can easily be done without damage, but it seems like adjusters have a knack for hiring total dipshits to do recoveries, with predictable results.

Also, seaplane accidents often happen in places that require helicopters to recover. Think $$$$

Finally, a Bearhawk or other experimental is likely to be totaled in any case....where do you buy parts, maintenance? Insurance companies may not be interested in Exp. Aircraft.
Shop around.

MTV

I do fly floats at work, and I certainly love them. But I am not sure I will be affording to put my plane on floats anytime soon...

The people that I know doing float work that have talked about insurance are primarily the flight training contacts I have. There is a fundamental difference in float insurance, such that none of the operators I talked to offer aircraft rental...their insurance allows dual only. From a practical standpoint, I am not sure that makes sense to me, as seaplane accidents at least out here are generally not common, nor are they particularly harmful. But a couple of the events we have had are purely reflective of low time operators trying something that isn't a good idea...so that might be a window into the issue. And as MTV says...if you don't get the right person for the recovery effort, it makes things lots worse.

As far as having a float plane or a wheel plane...I start with making sure I can afford a plane. I might add the ability to fly floats sometime in the future, but at present it is at work and for instruction in other people's airplanes only. So I will be interested to hear whether there are some other insightful comments about the insurance landscape, as I might be checking into that sometime myself.

I am a low time Maule pilot that flies primarily on floats, although I do fly skis and a little on wheels. It might be worth talking to your insurance company about options, originally when I got my license and was looking into insurance on floats the quote I got almost made me cry. So I asked what some of my options were short of not insuring, I was told that if I flew with a commercial pilot with a float endorsement for 25hours dual my rates went from about 7 grand to about 3 grand (Canadian dollars... so about 200 bucks U.S.) so I hired a guy and flew all day for 4 days straight. not sure if that is the case everywhere but it worked for me and I have been flying the floats off it for the last 4 years!!!

hope there are options for you because I can't imagine not flying floats.

Roamer

The recovery costs explain the 10% deductible. In the case I looked at, that’s a $13K deductible. My agent told me that’s pretty typical.

I bought my lake cabin because it’s seaplane accessible. Hope I can make that dream come true.

I’ve been flying my Maule for a year and a half so far. I dig it. Flew it on skis last winter for the first time. I dig that, too. Put floats on ‘er, I’d be stoked.

The Bearhawk and the Maule that’s in the process of being quoted (not the one I own) are in the $150-160K range. We’ll see how this Maule (M7-260) comes in. Then I’ll work backwards into my $60K Maule if things get stinky.

I think you can activate/deactivate insurance too... I've raised my non-ownee hull coverage when flying more expensive aircraft, but if it was a short lived arrangement, I call in and go back to a lower hull value.

Perhaps you can deactivate your float insurance if she's not on floata for the late fall/winter/early spring.

I’ve heard that some insurers will do that. I’ll definitely look into it. Thanks for the tip.

Call Falcon Insurance....in past, they’ve been pretty seaplane friendly.

I had to laugh at Troy’s comment about flight training seaplanes being the only ones insured in AK.

Maybe. But I wouldn’t bet on it. The last year I instructed in my 170 in Alaska, I got this quote:

Basic liability only: $1600 a year.

Full coverage, including hull, based on $60 K hull value: $3500

Full coverage, including hull, flight instructing covered, but NO student solo. Examiner had to meet insurance requirements: $6,000 a year.

That was based on an instructor with over 8000 seaplane time and over 1600 hours seaplane dual given, and no mishaps.

Don’t plan on flight instructing on floats in Alaska unless you really think you can make big bucks.

But, lower 48 is a very different world. Some of the concerns remain, but rates are more reasonable.

Again, get in touch with Falcon, and also give AVEMCO a call. They sometimes have decent rates for non commercial on floats.

MTV

I talked with Bob Mackey from Falcon at OSH this year, and he wasn’t surprised at the Bearhawk quote. Just not a big pool out there, especially on floats. He told me that they’re shopping the same folks my agency is. But being the preferred SPA agency, I’ll bet they have some unexplored avenues that could bare fruit.

Wheels, Floats, yes a problem. I have a slightly different issue. I am finished doing the maintenance on the floats, so I could put them on the 206. Well up here at 10,000' density altitude land, not so interesting in the summer. So my issue comes down to, if I finish up putting the spreader bars and struts on the floats, they will fit in the hanger, but not with the airplane as well. The airplane on floats, fits fine, but on wheels it takes up the bulk of the floorspace. So I kind of have to leave them apart until I am ready to put the floats back on. Or I need someplace to stick the floats, preferably not outside. I could fabricate some kind of lift to put them in the ceiling. Then again our airport manager would probably freak out if I did that. I suppose there might be some way to stand them on end...

Chris, I went thru this insuring my Widgeon years ago. I went with AVEMCO, they were the absolute best in flexibility. I insured it for operation half the year and storage the other half which essentially cut my yearly bill in half. Everyone else would not do this. Since I lived in New Hampshire at the time I wasn't flying a Widgeon in the winter anyway. It was still expensive. I was a no accident high time pilot with quite a bit of time in the Widgeon and it was still very expensive. As MTV listed above, those are the reasons its so expensive. I understand the float flying addiction, I too have it real bad. Talk to AVEMCO and ask about options. Good luck in your search.

Kurt

mtv wrote:I had to laugh at Troy’s comment about flight training seaplanes being the only ones insured in AK.

Mike, I would laugh at that too. But actually, all I was meaning is that the people I know that have discussed seaplane insurance with me are instructors...not that those are the only people insured. I have no idea who is insured. The instructors I have talked with are mostly not in Alaska...so I know even less about insurance up here. Your experience was interesting to read about.

Chris In Marshfield wrote: So, I got an insurance quote on a Bearhawk on floats and I nearly soiled myself. Hoping it's an experimental anomaly, I just asked my agent to quote a Maule seaplane for me. I expect that it won't be cheap, but I'm hoping for a better quote than what I got on the Bearhawk (for reference, one was $10K!). I hope to hear back in a couple of days. I'm sure it won't be cheap, especially with what I hope to be a fresh SES by the end of the season. ....

You think the floatplane quote was high, go ask about a quote for amphibs.

Ha! Those were amphib prices. There must be a heck of a lot of wheel-down landings going on for those rates to be that high.

Makes sense. The price you stated was pretty high for straight floats. There’s a considerable risk difference.

Also ask what year two is going to cost you. I experienced this when moving up to the T210 Cessna, and then again from the T210 to the 185 taildragger, then straight floats, then amphib. Key for me was to accumulate 100 hours in that first year, resulting in a significant rate reduction in year two.

Good plan. Experience is everything isn’t it?

Amphib insurance is indeed going to be much higher than straight float insurance, and for very good reasons. The accident rate on amphibs is pretty ugly, and at least some of those accidents have resulted in fatalities.

Float manufacturers have responded with all sorts of gear warning indicators, bells, whistles, lights, nagging female/male voices, etc, ad nauseum, when in fact the only thing that's going to change that metric is disciplined pilots. Gadgets encourage a casual approach to gear management in my opinion, when in fact what's needed is a sterile cockpit close to the surface and a healthy paranoia.

I personally know several pilots who've participated in the gear down in the water exercise, and all were on a very short hop from runway to water, giving someone an introduction to seaplanes....... Chatting up a storm right after takeoff, forgot to raise the gear, continued chat about the impending water landing, followed by a swimming lesson.

I've said this many times, but your best "tools" to avoid such nonsense is a set of convex mirrors mounted externally such that you can visually inspect the gear position, a sterile cockpit discipline within a few miles of a landing, and a healthy paranoia about gear position.

The point is, prevention is really quite simple. Unfortunately, all the bells and whistles aren't fixing this problem. Eventually, the insurance industry will solve the problem if pilots don't. That's what happened with the Lake amphibians, though the issues there weren't associated with gear down in water landings, but rather flight characteristics of the airplane. In that case, at one point, you simply couldn't get insurance on a Lake as a new owner, and many existing owners were being priced out of the insurance market.

Armand Rivard worked with the insurance industry to develop a Lake specific training program, which essentially became a mandatory precursor for insuring a Lake.

At the rate amphibs are getting upside down in the water, it seems it's only a matter of time before they go the same route.

Rant over.

MTV

Chris In Marshfield wrote: I suppose there might be some way to stand them on end...

Here's what I did to store my amphib floats when my 182 is on wheels.

1. Went to Harbor Freight. Always start a project with a trip to Harbor Freight!
2. Bought two of their electric hoists. I think I got the 1300 lb. ones that list for $159.95.
3. Bought some of their four wheel dollies, the hardwood ones with some carpet on top.
4. Bought some of their heavy duty slings. I think the 6 1/2 foot, 2,000 lb. ones for $9.99.
5. Had a local welder fabricate larger mounting brackets for the electric hoists to fit over the square steel tubing hangar trusses.
6. Spliced in longer wires to the handheld hoist controls.
7. Mounted the hoists roughly twelve feet apart and a few feet away from the back wall of the hangar.
8. Once I've hung the 182 by the lifting rings and my A&P and I have separated it from the Aerocet 3400's, I roll the entire float assembly to that back wall, with the floats lengthwise, parallel to the wall, then wrap slings around the float nearest the wall and hook a hoist onto each one. Oh, yeah, I called Aerocet and talked to them about where to lift from and they basically said almost anywhere. They're strong.
9. With the extra long cords I can then hold both remotes in my hands and operate them individually while standing clear.
10. When the assembly is tilted up enough, I place two or three of the dollies under the edge of float on the floor, so as I keep lifting, they allow the bottom float to move laterally toward the wall.
11. Once the assembly is up against the wall, the dollies come out and I place a couple of short pieces of lumber on the floor and lower it until it rests on the lumber and I just barely relieve the tension on the hoist cables and leave them in place to act as a safety.

Reverse the process at the end of the season. This is a box hangar about 50 by 40 so it holds two planes with the floats hung on the wall.

Pierre