Regarding insurance, here's how I went about it. Not quick and not easy, but I think it was best in the long run, not just for cost, but for getting me to build amphib time in a light, underpowered plane.

Like many, I went and got my SES rating as a fun alternative to a standard flight review one year. Of course, it set the hook and I wanted to fly floats. However, I lived part time near Lake Mead, which at about 1200’ MSL isn’t bad, but the other part of the time was near Lake Tahoe, at 6200' elevation and warm summer days, so DA routinely over eight and sometimes over nine thousand.

Given the high elevation lakes I wanted to operate from, I would need a high-performance airplane. Given all the dry land around me and the fact that I would be keeping it in my hangar at an airport, I would need an amphib. So, with the ink barely dry on my SES, and maybe ten hours, I called my insurance agent and told him I wanted to buy a complex, high-performance amphib. I think I heard him stifle a little snort-laugh! Despite having paid premiums to him on my Cirrus for years with zero claims, and no incidents or violations at all, he didn’t even want to bother to quote me.

“So what do I do” I asked him. He suggested I call him back when I had a hundred hours of amphib time. Thus the Catch 22 of breaking into amphib flying. My solution was to buy a forty thousand dollar Kitfox on amphibs off a Barnstormers ad and fly it for a little over a hundred hours. It took me about a year. I covered it with liability only for around $600. I figured if I broke it, a Kitfox is a pretty simple plane and cheap to repair. I also figured that if I totaled it, I’d probably be dead, so I wouldn’t care. And if I did total it and manage to survive, the $40K loss wouldn’t ruin me.

Then I bought my current amphib, a 300 HP STOL 182-G on Aerocet 3400’s. It wasn’t cheap that first year, partly due to a high hull value because of all the mods, but I was able to insure it along with the Cirrus and get a million smooth liability. Now I have around a thousand hours in amphibs and my rates are better.

That 182 did not come with wheel gear. A few years ago, I met Kevin Quinn when we were hangar neighbors at Truckee, and I started reading this forum. I became a little envious of all the big tire fun you guys were having, so I pieced together a nice wheel gear setup. That helped lower my insurance rate. They don’t ask me to report when I swap gear. They just quote a flat rate for the year based on being on amphibs roughly half the year and wheels half the year. That cut the rate by a couple of thousand.

Good luck to you and anyone else breaking into float and amphib flying. It's not easy or cheap, but sure is a lot of fun!

Here is my agent’s contact info. I have been very happy with Justin for ten years. This policy is placed with W Brown company.

Justin P. Wulf
Aircraft & Marine Insurance Agency Inc.
Professional Plaza I
1601 Highway 13 - Suite 203
P.O. Box 1407
Burnsville, MN 55337
Direct 952-890-1124
Fax 952-890-0937

http://www.aircraft-marine.com

Pierre_R wrote:My solution was to buy a forty thousand dollar Kitfox on amphibs off a Barnstormers ad and fly it for a little over a hundred hours. It took me about a year. I covered it with liability only for around $600. I figured if I broke it, a Kitfox is a pretty simple plane and cheap to repair. I also figured that if I totaled it, I’d probably be dead, so I wouldn’t care. And if I did total it and manage to survive, the $40K loss wouldn’t ruin me.

That’s a good plan. Wife likes the idea, too, which is a good thing. And she says it allows me to keep the Maule. Did she actually say that out loud? I love it when a plan comes together!

Pierre_R wrote:My solution was to buy a forty thousand dollar Kitfox on amphibs off a Barnstormers ad and fly it for a little over a hundred hours. It took me about a year. I covered it with liability only for around $600. I figured if I broke it, a Kitfox is a pretty simple plane and cheap to repair. I also figured that if I totaled it, I’d probably be dead, so I wouldn’t care. And if I did total it and manage to survive, the $40K loss wouldn’t ruin me.

Then I bought my current amphib, a 300 HP STOL 182-G on Aerocet 3400’s. It wasn’t cheap that first year, partly due to a high hull value because of all the mods, but I was able to insure it along with the Cirrus and get a million smooth liability. Now I have around a thousand hours in amphibs and my rates are better.

Good luck to you and anyone else breaking into float and amphib flying. It's not easy or cheap, but sure is a lot of fun!

Here is my agent’s contact info. I have been very happy with Justin for ten years. This policy is placed with W Brown company.

Justin P. Wulf
Aircraft & Marine Insurance Agency Inc.
Professional Plaza I
1601 Highway 13 - Suite 203
P.O. Box 1407
Burnsville, MN 55337
Direct 952-890-1124
Fax 952-890-0937

http://www.aircraft-marine.com

Good strategy. Amphib time is amphib time as far as insurance quotes go. And, that is the conundrum....same as trying to get a job flying seaplanes.....you need seaplane time, how do you get that?

good discussion. But, watch those mirrors.....

MTV

MTV wrote: Gadgets encourage a casual approach to gear management in my opinion, when in fact what's needed is a sterile cockpit close to the surface and a healthy paranoia.

Mike, you are absolutely right that a disciplined approach is the best solution to this and most pilot errors. However, I would encourage adopting an "AND" rather than an "either/or" attitude toward technological aids. The same arguments have been hashed out repeatedly as things like TAWS, Traffic, and other aids to SA were rolled out. Overall, technology, when properly incorporated into a sound, disciplined approach, helps lower these accidents. CFIT is way down since TAWS has become more prevalent, and I personally can attest to the Skywatch active traffic in my Cirrus helping me avoid traffic. Heck, I at first laughed at the backup camera on my new Ram 3500, but now have incorporated it in my scan. I still twist my neck around and look, but I also reference the pretty color screen. (Great for putting the ball hitch right under the trailer!)

Sure, get lots of top notch initial and recurrent training, develop good habits and discipline, AND take advantage of technology. I don't mind the gal in my headset reminding me that "Gear is up for water landing" or the guy reminding me that "gear is down for runway landing". I even made up a little rhyme when approaching a runway and I check my amphib gear lights: "four in the brown, wheels are down, landing on the ground"!

I like your reference to "paranoia". As they say, "it ain't paranoia if they really are out to get you"! Two of the three people I know personally who've done the "wheels on water dance" were people I look up to as higher time, professional pilots. I just finished reading Gery Bruder's book "Seaplanes Along the Inside Passage" and he refers to a very seasoned guy doing it too. I know if it can happen to those guys, it could happen to me. So, a little paranoia is a good thing.

Lastly, I will once again recommend getting egress training. I'm curious if those of you who fly on water professionally were required to get egress training. I did Bryan Webster's dunk training in Victoria and I think everyone should do it. I may go down to Louisiana and try the program at Southern Seaplanes as a refresher. There was a huge difference in my ability and confidence to egress between the beginning and the end of the day of training. I was surprised since I spent every summer in my youth on a lake and have swum 2.4 mile open ocean swims as part of Ironman triathlons, so I thought my comfort in water would be enough. It's very different finding yourself upside down, buckled inside a cockpit!

Pierre

Closing the gap on the amphib insurance thing, I received quotes back from my agent today. Rates ranged from $5600-6650 on straight floats and amphibs. Not as bad as expected, but still pretty .

Note that this is for a $160K Maule M7-260, and me with 300 hours TT, 100 hours tailwheel, and 75 hours Maule time. I'm also having her quote my MX-7-180A at $75K, although finding floats for that one could be a challenge. But knowing is half the battle, and then working toward the experience goals to bring those numbers down.

The "cheap" (in airplane dollars) amphib Kitfox is a great idea, and I did happen to find one on Barnstormers. We'll see how this all plays out.

Appreciate all of your collective insights!

Pierre_R wrote:

MTV wrote: Gadgets encourage a casual approach to gear management in my opinion, when in fact what's needed is a sterile cockpit close to the surface and a healthy paranoia.

Mike, you are absolutely right that a disciplined approach is the best solution to this and most pilot errors. However, I would encourage adopting an "AND" rather than an "either/or" attitude toward technological aids. The same arguments have been hashed out repeatedly as things like TAWS, Traffic, and other aids to SA were rolled out. Overall, technology, when properly incorporated into a sound, disciplined approach, helps lower these accidents. CFIT is way down since TAWS has become more prevalent, and I personally can attest to the Skywatch active traffic in my Cirrus helping me avoid traffic. Heck, I at first laughed at the backup camera on my new Ram 3500, but now have incorporated it in my scan. I still twist my neck around and look, but I also reference the pretty color screen. (Great for putting the ball hitch right under the trailer!)

Sure, get lots of top notch initial and recurrent training, develop good habits and discipline, AND take advantage of technology. I don't mind the gal in my headset reminding me that "Gear is up for water landing" or the guy reminding me that "gear is down for runway landing". I even made up a little rhyme when approaching a runway and I check my amphib gear lights: "four in the brown, wheels are down, landing on the ground"!

I like your reference to "paranoia". As they say, "it ain't paranoia if they really are out to get you"! Two of the three people I know personally who've done the "wheels on water dance" were people I look up to as higher time, professional pilots. I just finished reading Gery Bruder's book "Seaplanes Along the Inside Passage" and he refers to a very seasoned guy doing it too. I know if it can happen to those guys, it could happen to me. So, a little paranoia is a good thing.

Lastly, I will once again recommend getting egress training. I'm curious if those of you who fly on water professionally were required to get egress training. I did Bryan Webster's dunk training in Victoria and I think everyone should do it. I may go down to Louisiana and try the program at Southern Seaplanes as a refresher. There was a huge difference in my ability and confidence to egress between the beginning and the end of the day of training. I was surprised since I spent every summer in my youth on a lake and have swum 2.4 mile open ocean swims as part of Ironman triathlons, so I thought my comfort in water would be enough. It's very different finding yourself upside down, buckled inside a cockpit!

Pierre

Pierre,

You make excellent points. The problem I see is that all those technologies have failure points. Secondly, in my experience, many if not most folks who have those bells and whistles NEVER look out the window to inspect the gear. That is a disaster waiting to happen.

Note that one of the most popular amphibious float lines out there has a potential failure mode where a main gear can (and has) come disconnected from it's scissors. As a result, you now have one main down, and yet the INDICATORS are all attached to the scissors.....so, you check your lights, your bitching Bob or Betty, and everything says the gear is UP. But, one main gear is in fact hanging....... Land in water, and things are going to get exciting, but ALL the technology will have assured you the gear is UP.

Had you installed a couple of cheap auto parts store convex mirrors out on a strut or wing, you'd have been able to inspect the gear, and in that case, avoided that moving religious experience.

I worked in Kodiak for eight years and in at least that time, and maybe longer, many of the air taxi operators and government airplanes were amphibious. They possessed various flavors of gear indication, but none of it very technologically advanced. Every one of those airplanes, however, was equipped with mirrors to inspect the gear position. In those eight years, nobody had a gear down in water incident, and I don't recall anyone there even talking about past incidents.

But, nowadays, that type of accident seems to be fairly common. Part of that is the number of ampibs out there, and the percentage of them that are being operated by relatively low time recreational pilots, vs relatively high time commercial pilots.

I have nothing against technology, and I adopt it where practical. I think gear lights are a fine accessory. But, in my opinion, EVERY amphibian needs to have external mirrors to actually visualize the gear position, and EVERY amphibian pilot needs to exercise the discipline to ACTUALLY VISUALLY INSPECT the gear position prior to landing.

I totally agree that underwater egress training is an excellent idea. When I was in Fairbanks, a group of us convinced the Coast Guard to come to FAI and offer the training. Not quite as "fancy" a simulator as the folks in BC or LA use, but it has similar effect on the trainee. In MN, we talked MN DNR to provide that training to folks at one of the Seaplane fly ins there. I've been through the experience three or four times, and would happily do so again. Good experience.

MTV

We have a Found Bush Hawk on Aerocet 3400 amphibs. My dad had 1700 hours or so with over 100 hours on floats, and I was a newbie floatplane pilot, but with over 14,000 hours total time and over 13,000 hours in retracts.

Our first quote from Avemco was for over $14,000 per year to have me on the insurance!! We started shopping around until we found Falcon, where we ended up with a policy that was around $6,500 per year. While we've both gotten a lot more experience in type since then, my dad turned 70 last year - and our rates have gone up considerably as a result. We're just over $8,000 per year right now for a very comprehensive policy.

It ain't cheap!

This thread has kinda sucked the wind out of my sails for float ops. I'm starting to think the itch might have to be scratched with a Quicksilver MXL on Full Lotus amphibs.

Zzz wrote:This thread has kinda sucked the wind out of my sails for float ops. I'm starting to think the itch might have to be scratched with a Quicksilver MXL on Full Lotus amphibs.

That’s kinda the track I’m headed down.

Last numbers came in from my agent at $3185-3534 for my current Maule at $75K. Approaching reasonable!

The numbers will come down with experience. And, don't forget to mention training when asking for quotes....it all helps.

MTV

Yes sir. As this discussion has matured, I've found myself looking more for entry points into the sport now than finding my final water bird. So get in, get hours and experience without breaking the bank. Happy to have experienced folks like you around the offer guidance!

Pierre_R wrote:

MTV wrote:
Lastly, I will once again recommend getting egress training. I'm curious if those of you who fly on water professionally were required to get egress training. I did Bryan Webster's dunk training in Victoria and I think everyone should do it. I may go down to Louisiana and try the program at Southern Seaplanes as a refresher. There was a huge difference in my ability and confidence to egress between the beginning and the end of the day of training. I was surprised since I spent every summer in my youth on a lake and have swum 2.4 mile open ocean swims as part of Ironman triathlons, so I thought my comfort in water would be enough. It's very different finding yourself upside down, buckled inside a cockpit!

Pierre

I did Survival Systems in Groton, CT. The short story is I ended up with a bunch of special ops helicopter guys in the full 5 day program which includes a LOT of trips to the bottom of the pool in the dunker, and the culmination is getting thrown off a boat in the Atlantic in a survival suit with a raft and 7 of your now closest friends and getting to put it all together. Hands down some of the best training I've ever had. Very applicable to GA flying, transport category flying, helicopters, floats, wheels, boating, etc. My biggest takeaway was that "ditching" doesn't necessarily involve flying over a large body of water. Lots of airports are bordered by water, and of course there's a US Airways crew that knows something about it too. Much like the altitude chamber I hope I never need that training, but I'm glad I had it.

Guy called me last week to ask me to prep him for a float rating in his cub, which he just had put on floats. He called AVEMCO, where he is insured, and told me that it was an eye opener for sure. He cannot solo the plane without me in it until he has his PPSES rating in his pocket. And his rate tripled, I think he said.

Having seen a couple expensive mistakes out here, I can see how they come up with these issues. I guess the important thing is to figure out how to master water handling, including takeoff and landing, but not limited to those...it seems like decision making regarding high wind situations is sometimes an issue, and the ability to sail both without and with power is something that I suspect most students only sort of know from 5 kt practice days, and when they need it on a 30 kt day, they might not be up to managing the situation by reflex and trained response, which are super helpful at that point.

The other thing that comes to mind is being super disciplined about going through the checklist. The takeoff checklist is often the more critical one, but checklist discipline probably needs to be more general than just at one point or it won’t likely be maintained at that one point either.

Anyway, just been thinking through all of it. I will likely get a float plane at some point, it is just such an amazing tool for getting into the Alaska backcountry. But it might require a bit of extra financial planning. Meanwhile, hopefully between working and training other people I will establish a good set of habits that will pay off.

Oh, yeah, trying. One of the primary reasons that seaplane insurance is so expensive is the popularity of quickie “vanity” seaplane add on ratings.

Now, there’s no harm in those necessarily, till that pilot decides to purchase a seaplane, and embarks on actually operating a seaplane in “the real world”.

That’s when they sometimes discover that:

1. You can’t always land or takeoff directly into the wind in the real world.
2. There is actually moving water out there. And that stuff can really pose challenges.
3. Seaplane ops are ALWAYS an “off airport” operation, even at controlled SPBs.
4. What may seem minor distractions can kill or cause serious damage in this environment. Troy’s comment about checklist discipline is accurate. One of my favorites was to introduce distractions just prior to lining up for takeoff. Sooner or later, the applicant will forget to set flaps for t/o, and many if not most seaplanes just won’t take off without flaps.
5. The difference in performance between a loaded seaplane and a “training weight” seaplane is often far greater than in landplanes.
6. The effects of density altitude are far more noticeable in a seaplane than in a landplane.
7. Confined area ops can be much more challenging compared to wheels.

Etc. Go ahead and get those quickie SES add ones, but if you do actually buy a seaplane, do us all a favor and get some “real world” training before you charge off into the hinterlands.

My SES training program was almost always on the order of 8 to 10 hours of dual. Every student got exposed to fast water in rivers (like 6 to 8 knot current), actual confined areas, max weight ops, and learning to effectively pioneer a landing site.

Seaplanes are a hugely fun gig, no doubt. And there’s no reason they can’t be safe. An instructor may not be able to expose an applicant to every possible scenario, but a good intro really needs to instill a discipline of respect for the environment.

Good training goes a long ways toward that end.

MTV

Told my guy it was going to be in the 10 hour range before I would likely expect him to be ready. He didn’t blink, so off we go. But not today...gusts to 50kts right now...

Good for you, Troy. I’ve never had an applicant complain about hours, and many wanted more.

MTV