Stay safe out there….

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... aska-event

There's a video circulating of it when he actually stalled and spun, and it was after he was stable on final. He was number 3 with the planes stacked in super tight, I imagine trying to slow it down because number 2 was a zenith. Bone chilling seeing the wings roll over and plane dive.

asa wrote:There's a video circulating of it when he actually stalled and spun, and it was after he was stable on final. He was number 3 with the planes stacked in super tight, I imagine trying to slow it down because number 2 was a zenith. Bone chilling seeing the wings roll over and plane dive.

Yep. Thanks for the heads-up asa. I just watched video. He was closing too fast and just got too slow and a bit uncoordinated. Tragic.

Some pre qualification may be in order going forward for future STOL competitions.

I watched the cellphone video of the stall and spin. Yes, they were stacked too tight on final and he was overtaking the airplane in front of him. With 400' of vertical space available to just allow the nose to go down into, in the necessary steep turn, no stall should have happened. This was not his fault, however. It was the fault of the training given pilots to pull back to maintain altitude and decrease radius in all turns. He did not need to stay at 400.' He could have allowed the neutral dynamic stability safety feature of the airplane to prevent stall. Until we begin to teach pilots to use this already designed into the airplane safety feature, this sort of thing is going to continue to happen.

Event planners have the responsibility to insure safe spacing as well. The effort to provide the spectators with continuous action should come second to the safety of the participating pilots. This is not a poor training for STOL events accident, however. It is a poor training in basic safe maneuvering flight techniques. Crop dusters make a thousand turns of that airspeed and steepness a day successfully because they are trained to make energy management turns. Pulling back on the elevator while banking steeply is not the proper way, at least the safe way, to decrease the radius of the turn. Banking steeply while unloading the wing (releasing elevator pressure) is the proper way, at least the safe way, to decrease the radius of the turn. All turns... except instrument turns in the very controlled instrument environment. Also, use enough rudder to get the proper rate for the angle of bank. He was slipping, which slowed turn rate, which may have caused him to pull even more on the elevator.

Skyward and asa, which way did he roll? Over the top which would be slip or did the low wing drop out which would be skid. I can't find the video again. Either way the safety prevention technique is to release elevator pressure in all turns. No stall, no spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K96RlzP6RTo

Watch from 12:20 minute. It appears the airplanes were stacked too tightly and he was S turning to give more space. Too much bank and too much load. It was also reported to be windy during the event. I suspect he was the victim of several factors. Wind loading, bank and a likely mild change in wind direction. Very sad.



Josh

contactflying wrote:Skyward and asa, which way did he roll? Over the top which would be slip or did the low wing drop out which would be skid. I can't find the video again. Either way the safety prevention technique is to release elevator pressure in all turns. No stall, no spin.

It wasn't in the turn, he appeared to be well established on final already. I think the best prevention would have been to just turn out from final when he realized he was closing in on traffic to fast. Easy to say sitting here I realize, but learning when to abort the plan early enough is just as important as learning to turn.
Very sad and condolences to those who knew him.

Seems that there is a bit of a nose high attitude. I'm not a fan of this type of approach at such slow speeds without enough altitude to recover from a potential stall. From the STOL competitions I've watched, I've never seen this sort of approach style. Looks to be somewhat of a stabilized approach, but that airspeed was not safe for that AOA. I've seen plenty of the high AOA approaches down the runway at a low altitude (10-15 feet) for STOL comps, where a stall (probably) won't kill you. If you're at 400', nose trimmed up, I'd think you should be carrying a bit of excess speed controlled with power.

I think this article by Patrick is pretty spot on: https://backcountrypilot.org/stol-tips/ ... ude-flying

In terms of STOL competition safety, I'm sure there are prior safety briefings at most events, telling pilot's to maintain a safe distance from one another. If unable, then go-around. In addition to this, I'm curious how an implementation of something like: "Pilot's must carry at a minimum (Vref + Corrections) airspeed on descent, until established at least 50 feet above the runway." Deviating from this, the competitor would incur a disqualification from the competition. At then end of the day, nobody wants to see anyone getting hurt from this type of thing.

Watch the surroundings, flags, banners, and watch that Zenith as he continues the approach after the accident.

Looked to be kind of gnarly air to me. Not making excuses, you still have to fly the plane.

Never should have been sequenced that tight.

Bad deal, for sure. RIP.

MTV

contactflying wrote:Skyward and asa, which way did he roll? Over the top which would be slip or did the low wing drop out which would be skid. I can't find the video again. Either way the safety prevention technique is to release elevator pressure in all turns. No stall, no spin.

Rolled right. Stiff/Gusty crosswind from left quarter. Stable approach. Shallow glide path. No separation. High AOA. It all goes real bad in about a second and a half. Should have chosen to go around 10 seconds earlier. Task saturated trying to salvage landing?

Earlier in the video, his departure scared the crap out of me as he was extremely steep in climb out for the power that 140 puts out. Accident waiting to happen. So sad.

All the departures by all the airplanes scare me because even with those powerful engines, engine failure at near stall airspeed is possible. It is difficult to teach good low ground effect to cruise airspeed takeoffs in that kind of testosterone environment. Yes, he should not have tried to duplicate idiot departures. His airplane cannot, like some of theirs, hover out of ground effect. Somebody's got to get a grip on this stuff.

contactflying wrote:All the departures by all the airplanes scare me because even with those powerful engines, engine failure at near stall airspeed is possible. It is difficult to teach good low ground effect to cruise airspeed takeoffs in that kind of testosterone environment. Yes, he should not have tried to duplicate idiot departures. His airplane cannot, like some of theirs, hover out of ground effect. Somebody's got to get a grip on this stuff.

Pointless as they are only measuring ground roll. Sure looks impressive.

Tragic ending.

Kevin's High Sierra, Barnstormer's Texas STOL, and Valdez have classes of airplanes separated to not encourage normal airplanes from trying to fly like semi-helicopter airplanes I think. The drag it in or the power/pitch deceleration on short final technique can be the same for either class, but airspeed and ground speed will be different. Both normal and high power to weight airplanes can exactly hit the mark, but the rollout will be longer with the heavier airplane. On takeoff, however, the low power to weight airplane is much more dependent on the extra energy of low ground effect after lift off well below the out of ground effect Vso number. Normal engine (75 hp) C-140 is a fine airplane to teach both the low ground effect takeoff and the apparent brisk walk rate of closure deceleration on short final or any power/pitch approach. This was a turn with elevator pitch to stay level problem, rather than a takeoff or landing problem, however. Any of those airplanes making a startle steep turn while pulling back on the elevator to maintain altitude in takeoff, in the pattern, or during the approach could have experienced unrecoverable stall. I understand the need for the level turn under the hood or IMC at altitude to prevent upset while on the gauges. That turn is not necessary VMC while flying by reference to other aircraft, horizontal obstructions, the centerline extended, the numbers etc. That turn is deadly when too low to recover from probable resultant stall when hurried by late response to traffic, engine failure, or any number of situations. Don't be startled is not the solution.

It’s a shame they had a low time pilot in a plane that could not get anywhere near as slow as the 4 purpose built STOL planes in front of him, in the last position in the pattern. He struggled with separation on final in both of his runs in the video.

corefile wrote:It’s a shame they had a low time pilot in a plane that could not get anywhere near as slow as the 4 purpose built STOL planes in front of him, in the last position in the pattern. He struggled with separation on final in both of his runs in the video.

“They” didn’t have anything to do with what you’re pointing out. Read the article: “They” canceled the scheduled event. The participants then decided to conduct a “traditional STOL” program. There appears to have been little if any organization, structure, or supervision.

And, that did not end well.

MTV

mtv wrote:

corefile wrote:It’s a shame they had a low time pilot in a plane that could not get anywhere near as slow as the 4 purpose built STOL planes in front of him, in the last position in the pattern. He struggled with separation on final in both of his runs in the video.

“They” didn’t have anything to do with what you’re pointing out. Read the article: “They” canceled the scheduled event. The participants then decided to conduct a “traditional STOL” program. There appears to have been little if any organization, structure, or supervision.

And, that did not end well.

MTV

I read the article! And I talked to a friend that was there! I’m well aware that the STOL Drag was cancelled and an impromptu traditional STOL was done. I have been at High Sierra when the same thing happened, STOL Drag was cancelled and so the “participants” tried to do a traditional STOL. I never said anything about the STOL Drag crew - so get off your soap box Mike.

corefile wrote:

mtv wrote:

corefile wrote:It’s a shame they had a low time pilot in a plane that could not get anywhere near as slow as the 4 purpose built STOL planes in front of him, in the last position in the pattern. He struggled with separation on final in both of his runs in the video.

“They” didn’t have anything to do with what you’re pointing out. Read the article: “They” canceled the scheduled event. The participants then decided to conduct a “traditional STOL” program. There appears to have been little if any organization, structure, or supervision.

And, that did not end well.

MTV

I read the article! And I talked to a friend that was there! I’m well aware that the STOL Drag was cancelled and an impromptu traditional STOL was done. I have been at High Sierra when the same thing happened, STOL Drag was cancelled and so the “participants” tried to do a traditional STOL. I never said anything about the STOL Drag crew - so get off your soap box Mike.

You seemed to be casting aspersions at the organizers of the event in your post. I was simply pointing out that this was an impromptu event, and not part of the program. The point being, at that point, everyone was on his or her own, and there was no "organization" to separate out aircraft types.
That is unfortunate. But, no soap box was needed in my post, I was simply pointing out that the "they" you referred to in your note should refer to the participants, not the organizers.

An ugly situation all round and a tragic outcome.

MTV

I'll also point out that all those pilots, including the one who crashed were pretty well experienced. I think he had an instrument rating even though he had gotten his pilots license just a year ago. All of them were required to go through a mandatory training program that week or before and were "qualified" to compete the organized event and had to demonstrate pretty significant skills to be able to even be there. There's even an FAA waiver and an entire training program they all go through and they are required to maintain special insurance no less. This appears to be a self-organized thing after the actual event was cancelled.

My heart goes out to all who knew him, and who witnessed a tragic event. I was supposed to be there - elected to stay home because of weather.

Tragic.

mtv wrote:

corefile wrote:

mtv wrote:

corefile wrote:It’s a shame they had a low time pilot in a plane that could not get anywhere near as slow as the 4 purpose built STOL planes in front of him, in the last position in the pattern. He struggled with separation on final in both of his runs in the video.

“They” didn’t have anything to do with what you’re pointing out. Read the article: “They” canceled the scheduled event. The participants then decided to conduct a “traditional STOL” program. There appears to have been little if any organization, structure, or supervision.

And, that did not end well.

MTV

I read the article! And I talked to a friend that was there! I’m well aware that the STOL Drag was cancelled and an impromptu traditional STOL was done. I have been at High Sierra when the same thing happened, STOL Drag was cancelled and so the “participants” tried to do a traditional STOL. I never said anything about the STOL Drag crew - so get off your soap box Mike.

You seemed to be casting aspersions at the organizers of the event in your post. I was simply pointing out that this was an impromptu event, and not part of the program. The point being, at that point, everyone was on his or her own, and there was no "organization" to separate out aircraft types.
That is unfortunate. But, no soap box was needed in my post, I was simply pointing out that the "they" you referred to in your note should refer to the participants, not the organizers.

An ugly situation all round and a tragic outcome.

MTV

In answer to the question when is too slow, too slow, there are two places. The first in on takeoff where any slow below the maximum that can be obtained before pitch up to just clear obstructions. After clearance, too slow is when we stay in a Vx or Vy pitch attitude. The second is when out of ground effect but not high enough to recover from inadvertent stall.

Juan was on site…
https://youtu.be/LpPFfZ76v4Q