soyAnarchisto wrote:I can't disagree. He had 500 hours and had been through Kevin's training program for the STOL drags, AFAIR.

At work 500hrs is considered one of the extreme danger zones, more so than 200hrs, and that is statistically supported in our profession. We put a lot of mentoring and training into guys in that hour range out of an abundance of caution. At that point they have become very comfortable in the cockpit, admittedly far too comfortable for the very early experience level. We currently have a wreck we retrieved for a third party from a mountain top in our hangar, that occurred at 400 and something hours as a reminder.

For Tom Dafoe, getting to 500hrs as a private pilot in a year is extremely commendable to give him due credit, that’s an enormous amount of private flying in a year and has to be acknowledged for the hell of an achievement it is. I don’t think quoting huge hour benchmarks as levels to achieve to become safe makes any sense. Most of the thresholds are completely unreasonable to expect for the private pilot, and it distracts the focus to looking for numbers as achievements rather than flying in the here and now to the best of our ability.

Again I’d worry far more about procedure and decision making than hands and feet, our newer pilots worry about smooth landings more than how they approach, and where they choose to land much of the time. Most would trade too steep or shallow of an approach for a perfect feather soft touchdown, which is losing sight of the big picture and what will kill you. I know I used to whimper in anguish internally if I landed roughly with passengers, or in sight of those with more experience putting far too much weight on being “smooth”. What I should have been worried about is a clean and safe arrival, and all that takes. Smooth comes all on its own later.

No question the crowd, marshals, and the other pilots at a STOL event add a lot of internally reflected pressure, that’s a lot of eyes and all are judging from the pilot’s perspective, as comparison is the whole point of the event. Pressure to perform to a standard isn’t always a bad thing, and again I don’t want to see it eliminated, just measured and considered. It takes a long time to learn not to worry about it, and that isn’t something hours necessarily change, it’s more about human psychology. At work when an aircraft is landing we turn our backs, out of respect and to avoid adding pressure without benefit, I even do it for the 7500hr guy so it’s evenly applied amongst everyone.

Anyhow, I risk getting off topic. I think it’s important to acknowledge the pressure Tom Dafoe would have felt to perform, and his confidence level at 500hrs in a year was likely extremely high, as almost certainly was his desire to perform for the eyes present. It’s something I think we can all relate to and understand the implications of, and that over-confidence applies to every new activity we undertake as pilots not simply flying as a whole. I can attest myself from having “used up” a prop and engine on my first attempt at a new activity, to borrow a term from a member here I’ve learned to respect the opinions of immensely.

Zzz wrote:Best way to escape hairy situations is to not be there in the first place. I personally handle this one by being a people-avoiding fair-weather weenie. The grumpier I get, the less I feel like proving anything to anyone. Maybe that keeps me safer.

And that right there, is decision making. And it sure does make you safer.

soyAnarchisto wrote:I can't disagree. He had 500 hours and had been through Kevin's training program for the STOL drags,

I don’t think the STOL drag training (also lets not over sell it) has any relevance to traditional STOL short take off and landing. You are never in the pattern stacked behind other planes. You are never behind the power curve. STOL Drag you are coming in really flat and fast, slipping to try and slow down some but you are never “hanging it off the prop” like in a traditional stol drag. He also got a sea plane rafting, and his IFR as part of the 500 in one year-ish, that is a lot of different skills in a year.. In the video, both times he was struggling with spacing - tragic out come. Maybe he just was not that proficient in that particular scenario.

I made that same mistake the first fly in I went to in my one 180 - I was on a long long straight in final and got to close to my buddy flying in front of me. I slowed down and was a little nose high - I felt the buffet of the wings starting to stall - luckily Because of the long straight in I was coordinated and stabilized and a little high, which may have saved me as I was above the wake of the plane in front and I had the altitude to push the nose over before a full stall developed.

Ugg looks like they were making radio calls to him that he was slow and nose high.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/sto ... ore-crash/

Ardent wrote:

soyAnarchisto wrote:I can't disagree. He had 500 hours and had been through Kevin's training program for the STOL drags, AFAIR.

At work 500hrs is considered one of the extreme danger zones, more so than 200hrs, and that is statistically supported in our profession. We put a lot of mentoring and training into guys in that hour range out of an abundance of caution. At that point they have become very comfortable in the cockpit, admittedly far too comfortable for the very early experience level. We currently have a wreck we retrieved for a third party from a mountain top in our hangar, that occurred at 400 and something hours as a reminder.

For Tom Dafoe, getting to 500hrs as a private pilot in a year is extremely commendable to give him due credit, that’s an enormous amount of private flying in a year and has to be acknowledged for the hell of an achievement it is. I don’t think quoting huge hour benchmarks as levels to achieve to become safe makes any sense. Most of the thresholds are completely unreasonable to expect for the private pilot, and it distracts the focus to looking for numbers as achievements rather than flying in the here and now to the best of our ability.

Again I’d worry far more about procedure and decision making than hands and feet, our newer pilots worry about smooth landings more than how they approach, and where they choose to land much of the time. Most would trade too steep or shallow of an approach for a perfect feather soft touchdown, which is losing sight of the big picture and what will kill you. I know I used to whimper in anguish internally if I landed roughly with passengers, or in sight of those with more experience putting far too much weight on being “smooth”. What I should have been worried about is a clean and safe arrival, and all that takes. Smooth comes all on its own later.

No question the crowd, marshals, and the other pilots at a STOL event add a lot of internally reflected pressure, that’s a lot of eyes and all are judging from the pilot’s perspective, as comparison is the whole point of the event. Pressure to perform to a standard isn’t always a bad thing, and again I don’t want to see it eliminated, just measured and considered. It takes a long time to learn not to worry about it, and that isn’t something hours necessarily change, it’s more about human psychology. At work when an aircraft is landing we turn our backs, out of respect and to avoid adding pressure without benefit, I even do it for the 7500hr guy so it’s evenly applied amongst everyone.

Anyhow, I risk getting off topic. I think it’s important to acknowledge the pressure Tom Dafoe would have felt to perform, and his confidence level at 500hrs in a year was likely extremely high, as almost certainly was his desire to perform for the eyes present. It’s something I think we can all relate to and understand the implications of, and that over-confidence applies to every new activity we undertake as pilots not simply flying as a whole. I can attest myself from having “used up” a prop and engine on my first attempt at a new activity, to borrow a term from a member here I’ve learned to respect the opinions of immensely.

Zzz wrote:Best way to escape hairy situations is to not be there in the first place. I personally handle this one by being a people-avoiding fair-weather weenie. The grumpier I get, the less I feel like proving anything to anyone. Maybe that keeps me safer.

And that right there, is decision making. And it sure does make you safer.

Great comment about the 500hrs. The NAAA has the stats to back that as well. And they take it even further, it's not just 500hrs tt, it's 500 in aircraft type. So when I move from the 402 to the 502, or 502 to the 802, I run the same risk at 500hrs in type. It definitely makes sense to me and makes me think about times a bit differently.

corefile wrote:Ugg looks like they were making radio calls to him that he was slow and nose high.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/sto ... ore-crash/

That is good to hear, that the marshals had the experience required. Just too bad it wasn’t heeded.

Ardent, you mentioned not watching your guys to lower the pressure. That was kind. I was in a no choice but learned to value instructing from the ground in single seat Ag. We can certainly judge apparent rate of closure as well from the ground as from the cockpit. We can also hear the relative wind whistle and engine noise and see pitch attitude and tail (or wing) wagging. That was how the caller from the ground was judging his performance. The time in grade you mention is where we develop the power of power and ground effect to go fast on takeoff and both to more safely go slow to land. Airplane drivers can blast as much air over the wing root as practicable for safety. The more air, the slower we can safely go. Again, I don't know his technique and the camera angle was not the best, but power/pitch deceleration coming into ground effect is so much safer that holding a just above stall pitch attitude all the way down. And daisy chain is certainly not as safe in airplanes as in helicopters. Dempsey Army Airfield at Ft. Wolters was the busiest airport in the world during Vietnam. Literally hundreds in the daisy chain when the afternoon class brought the helicopters back from the stage fields.

Ardent wrote:

Zzz wrote:Best way to escape hairy situations is to not be there in the first place. I personally handle this one by being a people-avoiding fair-weather weenie. The grumpier I get, the less I feel like proving anything to anyone. Maybe that keeps me safer.

And that right there, is decision making. And it sure does make you safer.

But not by much... I don't know a single dead person that aimed to find a 'hairy situation'... it found them. Again, abstinence is just groovy if that's your thing, but knowledge, and in this case skill is power. You lose nothing by gaining them.
My day job is in a single seat cockpit, at hours that include long after 'last call' so clearly I have no one to prove anything to even if I was of that mindset
If you choose not to excel in those areas, then perhaps abstinence is in fact your only choice for survival.

The very notion that striving for excellence in all the hand jive is unnecessary if you avoid people (or contests) is foreign to me, but I have never been concerned with contests or others. I do the best I can for myself, and to come home, every night.

Again, not a fan of the contests, just a fan of flying in all of it's excellence.

Take care, Rob

Good training is more effective than just experience. I had a good loach pilot in Vietnam, Mr. Turner, who was 17 and came from flight school with 200 hours. My zero timers at Ag Flight could execute all the safe maneuvering flight techniques I teach before they had a PPL. It is more what you did, rather than how much. "Do you want to be or do?" John Boyd. That said, there are plenty of self trained Ag pilots out there. Self training without incident and accident is mute. The first guy I sprayed for worried that I had only crashed one Pawnee until I had some time with him. Ag or pipeline patrol is a thousand energy management turns a day. That would only be six hours or so. There is no math way to weigh hours.

Rob wrote:

Ardent wrote:

Zzz wrote:Best way to escape hairy situations is to not be there in the first place. I personally handle this one by being a people-avoiding fair-weather weenie. The grumpier I get, the less I feel like proving anything to anyone. Maybe that keeps me safer.

And that right there, is decision making. And it sure does make you safer.

But not by much... I don't know a single dead person that aimed to find a 'hairy situation'... it found them. Again, abstinence is just groovy if that's your thing, but knowledge, and in this case skill is power. You lose nothing by gaining them.
My day job is in a single seat cockpit, at hours that include long after 'last call' so clearly I have no one to prove anything to even if I was of that mindset
If you choose not to excel in those areas, then perhaps abstinence is in fact your only choice for survival.

The very notion that striving for excellence in all the hand jive is unnecessary if you avoid people (or contests) is foreign to me, but I have never been concerned with contests or others. I do the best I can for myself, and to come home, every night.

Again, not a fan of the contests, just a fan of flying in all of it's excellence.

Take care, Rob

Are you having a father's day sale on false dichotomies?

...

Zzz wrote:

Rob wrote:

Ardent wrote:

Zzz wrote:Best way to escape hairy situations is to not be there in the first place. I personally handle this one by being a people-avoiding fair-weather weenie. The grumpier I get, the less I feel like proving anything to anyone. Maybe that keeps me safer.

And that right there, is decision making. And it sure does make you safer.

But not by much... I don't know a single dead person that aimed to find a 'hairy situation'... it found them. Again, abstinence is just groovy if that's your thing, but knowledge, and in this case skill is power. You lose nothing by gaining them.
My day job is in a single seat cockpit, at hours that include long after 'last call' so clearly I have no one to prove anything to even if I was of that mindset
If you choose not to excel in those areas, then perhaps abstinence is in fact your only choice for survival.

The very notion that striving for excellence in all the hand jive is unnecessary if you avoid people (or contests) is foreign to me, but I have never been concerned with contests or others. I do the best I can for myself, and to come home, every night.

Again, not a fan of the contests, just a fan of flying in all of it's excellence.

Take care, Rob

Are you having a father's day sale on false dichotomies?

Great value as they run a dime a dozen, currently.......

Zzz wrote:Are you having a father's day sale on false dichotomies?

Only for fair-weather weenie, grumpy seniors ... every one else pays double what you did, for half as much...

If I've misunderstood you my apologies, I'll blame it on the 5-6, or 10-11 brain cells I have left that work. If I've offended you, likewise.

I probably don't have much of value to add to a thread about flying slow, fast, heavy or maneuvering, and work is once again rearing it's head, so I'll go back to doing what keeps me safe, and working with then next gen that has an actual interest in doing the same instead of trying to stay safe on a keyboard.

Full Stop? or is that mic drop ....

Rob

We all have something to offer. If this tragedy causes us to reflect on better training and techniques and promotes iterations of same, we have gained from the exchange. Inclusion promotes this, exclusion does not. We can whip the too large fatality bucket with effort. In the past maneuvering flight has not been dealt with from a what, other than avoid, can we do. Most of the fatalities are during maneuvering flight around the airport. What, other than avoid, can we do?

One of my favorite wing leveling lessons.

https://youtu.be/2pGuoc11lxY

When ambition outweighs talent and judgement....

Rob wrote: The very notion that striving for excellence in all the hand jive is unnecessary if you avoid people (or contests)

No one said that. That's YOUR notion of the statement you want to respond to, not what was actually said. That's a false dichotomy, presenting two options as the only options.

I've acquired training beyond what was required for my whole flying "career." And I like to avoid crowds. I choose both those options. I also choose humility because then no one ever challenges your purported feats of excellence.

You've got an abundance of experience AND you share it proudly on the internet using your keyboard. They're not mutually exclusive.

Don't drop the mic, dumbass. They're expensive.

When is too slow, too slow?

When too low to recover from inadvertent stall and not decelerating on short final: Vx, Vy, any V speed short of comfortable zoom reserve airspeed is too slow. Zoom reserve airspeed is the speed that would allow maneuvering or even the short duration wings level climb after engine failure to set up the energy management 1g turn of whatever bank needed. I survived 13 engine failures because I was never caught without zoom reserve airspeed except on short final for 17,000 hours at 200' or below. On all but four, I needed the energy management turn to make the beginning of the LZ. Don't depend on altitude until you have altitude. Even at 200,' use the potential energy of that 200.' Be flexible. Use all energy available to you. And even from 200' AGL, I was usually high and fast requiring full flaps and rudder to the stop slip to make the beginning of the near hemisphere LZ. You can't see long, so don't try to go there. The LZ is just there and is very obvious. I'm talking about saving skin not tin. Incidents and accidents can lead to life rather than fatality. If the available LZ is a plane saver, fine. If not, let's go.

Maneuvering flight is intense but can be very safe in small single engine airplanes. Part of the safety is the intensity. You just don't have time to be startled. Engine failure is a six second deal. It takes a load off the mind, not having to worry about all those check list items.,

Oh boy

Zzz wrote:No one said that. That's YOUR notion of the statement you want to respond to, not what was actually said.

I'm too much of a dumbass to make this shit up, so maybe you can clarify, because that's how I'm reading this...

Zzz wrote:Best way to escape hairy situations is to not be there in the first place. I personally handle this one by being a people-avoiding fair-weather weenie. The grumpier I get, the less I feel like proving anything to anyone. Maybe that keeps me safer.

Is not participating not abstaining? I was merely pointing out that people will continue to do these things... not 'doing' isn't a real option...

Zzz wrote:I've acquired training beyond what was required for my whole flying "career." And I like to avoid crowds. I choose both those options.

Good on you... and I see we agree on at least two things here. Advanced training is good, and people suck...

Zzz wrote:I also choose humility because then no one ever challenges your purported feats of excellence.

This one I can read two different ways, and neither is becoming of you.
On one hand, I see it as a cheap bumper sticker that says 'Humble and proud' Humble bragging? I mean how humble is the guy that has to tell you he is? I don't see this in you....
On the other hand I see this as a person who is so concerned with what someone else is going to think, that he is afraid to contribute anything. Who is gaining anything there?

Zzz wrote:You've got an abundance of experience AND you share it proudly on the internet using your keyboard. They're not mutually exclusive.

I have an order of magnitude less experience in the things related to this topic than my mentors, and probably a fair amount more than the average weekend fun flier, I am grateful for the things I've managed to experience and accomplish, and have no shame in sharing them, but realize they are an endless journey. And yes, I have an earnest interest in
provoking thoughts that might make the next Tom Dafoe think a little bit. I realize there are infinite number of ways to skin that cat, and don't think your a dumbass for presenting yours, although I've been called much worse, by much prettier, I take no offense to your calling me so...

Zzz wrote:Don't drop the mic, dumbass. They're expensive.

Take care, Dumbass Rob

I'm sorry you spent so much time writing that out, hopefully you've mastered the multi-quote feature during your thread review. The pedantry was masterful, artistry of a masterdebater, if you will.

You ever get pulled into a debate and stop to think: I don't really care, why does my mouth keep moving? Why am I here? That's kinda how I feel, but I am laughing. I hope you are as well. You know who's not laughing? People who showed up to fly-ins with more enthusiasm than brains and suffered a midair collision (2013 Johnson Creek, 2014 HSF.) I still have nightmares, and some guilt for being partially responsible for bringing them together. Controlling their wing loading and their airspeed reserve oddly didn't protect them. Maybe head on a swivel would have, or a skylight, or patroller doors, or something...can't think of it at this moment. I do count avoiding crowds as a personal choice that lets me exert some control over aircraft separation, by a larger margin than most, I guess.

Oh, Berk (C172, Big Creek, 2009? Flew up wrong canyon.) And Hank (7GCBC, Llano area, hit low wire.) Those guys were on their own. Enthusiasm for this stupid website and what we glamorize.

I don't think you're a dumbass, quite the opposite. But the term seemed ok at the time for someone who self-describes their post as befitting of "mic drop." LOL! Anyone who knows me a little could figure that, of all my word choices, that one is chosen endearingly.

Anyway, you have my phone number.