Cary wrote:Another thought: with so many upgrading their panels to touch screens of one ilk or another, there are 430Ws on the market. Bennett Avionics (which is a good-guy type of dealer, fair and responsive) has them for $8,695. You'll also need a compatible indicator, and Bennett has those for $1,895. With both of those, you'll have the ability (once you learn how ) to shoot every kind of approach except ADF: ILS, GPS/RNAV of all kinds, and VOR.

Do NOT let yourself get talked into a straight 430 non-WAAS. Those are available for about $2200 less than the W, but with the proliferation of GPS/RNAV LPV approaches around the country, the extra benefit of the WAAS is well worth it--it gives you an electronic glideslope just like an ILS. In the 4 years I've had my 430W, I have lost track of the LPV approaches I've flown for real, and like I said earlier, I don't do all that much actual IFR.

You might find a better deal more locally to you--avionics dealers don't like keeping used equipment any longer than necessary. But if you can't, my experience with Todd Bennett was very good some years ago when I bought my ADF from him. Either way, assuming you install it yourself, you'll need to have it certified by an appropriately rated avionics tech to do GPS-derived approaches.

Cary

NO! Don't let yourself get talked into old GNS 430W for $8,695 - when you can get a brand new GTN 650 for $9,649.

*I mean I can't afford either - but while we are spending other peoples money - does not make much sense to buy and old 430W vs. new 650

FWIW I see in T-A-P that Sarasota Avionics is offering to take 430/530 series Garmins in trade for 650/750 series boxes. Others might be also.

corefile wrote:

Cary wrote:Another thought: with so many upgrading their panels to touch screens of one ilk or another, there are 430Ws on the market. Bennett Avionics (which is a good-guy type of dealer, fair and responsive) has them for $8,695. You'll also need a compatible indicator, and Bennett has those for $1,895. With both of those, you'll have the ability (once you learn how ) to shoot every kind of approach except ADF: ILS, GPS/RNAV of all kinds, and VOR.

Do NOT let yourself get talked into a straight 430 non-WAAS. Those are available for about $2200 less than the W, but with the proliferation of GPS/RNAV LPV approaches around the country, the extra benefit of the WAAS is well worth it--it gives you an electronic glideslope just like an ILS. In the 4 years I've had my 430W, I have lost track of the LPV approaches I've flown for real, and like I said earlier, I don't do all that much actual IFR.

You might find a better deal more locally to you--avionics dealers don't like keeping used equipment any longer than necessary. But if you can't, my experience with Todd Bennett was very good some years ago when I bought my ADF from him. Either way, assuming you install it yourself, you'll need to have it certified by an appropriately rated avionics tech to do GPS-derived approaches.

Cary

NO! Don't let yourself get talked into old GNS 430W for $8,695 - when you can get a brand new GTN 650 for $9,649.

*I mean I can't afford either - but while we are spending other peoples money - does not make much sense to buy and old 430W vs. new 650

Oh, I agree, if it's just a thou difference. Well, maybe not totally. When I bought my 430W new, the package including installation was about $2000 difference. Is there more labor involved with installing the 650? Heck, I don't know, but the $2000 difference at the time was enough to make me go with the 430W. While I was learning how to use it, I often had regrets for not going with the 650, which by all accounts is more user friendly. But now that I know the 430W pretty well, I still favor buttons and knobs over touch screens.

My point, of course, was that the WAAS capability is very definitely worth the $2200 price point between a 430 and a 430W. I should have also mentioned that the processor of a purpose-built 430W (not one that has been converted from a 430) is a bit faster so that the refresh rate is faster, but I don't know that that makes a whole lot of difference. The big thing is the WAAS capability, so even one of the conversions would be a better deal than a plain vanilla 430.

Cary

One more vote for being able to listen to two frequencies at once, even if just with one radio. I have never had to transmit on both at once, but listening two to is very high on the nice to have list!

Even if you're not IFR, and I am not, there are still so many excellent uses for listening to dual comm. I like to know what's happening in airspace before I reach it, for instance. Or get the ATIS without missing that call from ATC. Or monitor the active local traffic frequency while blabbering away on a chat frequency with buddies.

When I was intending to equip my Bearhawk for IFR I asked the local CFII that I'd be using to get my rating what he thought I should install for avionics. He's a great guy but a bit on the "bold" side I guess. He suggested a 430 would be sufficient.

Perhaps you'll enjoy this thread: https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/bare-bones-ifr-panel-check-that-glass-w-waas-gps-16405

Here's how our radios are set (frequency tuned / alternate frequency)
Com 1: Center / FSS
Com 2: CTAF (to listen for the guys flying bootleg IFR) / AWOS
Com 3: Company chat channel for my company / Company chat channel for the competition
Com 4: Marine band radio for the village agents

All four are monitored in cruise. Coms 3 and 4 are silenced for takeoff and while on approach

I don't think I've seen anyone mention that dual comms reduce workload when you're busy. I have two comms, each with primary and standby frequencies. If I'm approaching a busy terminal area in IMC, I'll listen to center on one frequency, have the ATIS on the other radio, and also have approach and tower tuned. Once done with ATIS, I dial in ground. Unless the FBO has a frequency, I'm done tuning radios until shutdown. This is especially useful if the approach requires handflying, as is often the case with my old autopilot.

Just had my #2 radio go toes up.
Wouldn't have believed how much I'd miss it.
Sheesh. Sounds like a country song.
Also, hadn't thought of adding a third.
Scratching my head over placement now.

Whee, That was a good read and answered a lot of the same questions I have. It was a little dated now that Dynon has STC for installation in a lot of TC aircraft. I was thinking just like you; ILS and maybe an iPad/ForeFlight for more SA. Man, it does get complicated...

As I said before personal preference rules here. Do what you like. For hard IFR work, sure I like two radios and whole lots of other stuff... like an autopilot. Easier is safer and even glass panels are nice to have. But for my 180, one radio works fine for me (notice I have a semi glass panel and an autopilot;). XC and a little IFR is my bag, or gets me back and forth where I can do what I want to do.

gunny

Gunny; Sounds about right for me too. I have no desire to fight hard IMC but most of the time it would be nice to get through a cloud "barrier" knowing the sun is shining above and on the destination.

Like Cary, I like knobs (big ones. ) And analog gauges give more situational awareness, but we're not going to get those back. At least I can still buy a Timex with hands.

There are many good radios out there today for young pilots who have feeling in their fingers.

The monitor feature of most new radios reduces the benefit of have a second radio, however I really like being able to set different volume levels between my primary and secondary radio: makes it easier to immediately know which one is squawking at me. I haven't seen (or at least I haven't figured out) a radio that lets you set the monitored frequency to a different volume setting. Is that worth the extra cost... in most cases probably not (at least to me)

The new Garmins have 3D audio in which the active channel is in your left ear and the standby is in your right ear and copilot seems to come from behind and to the right. You can't adjust the volume between the two, but it's easy to tell the difference by the location. It's pretty slick.

I'd ask of you're talking a IFR plane or a IMC plane, big difference.

I've see a lots of fair weather IFR pilots who are VMC 90% of the time, this has very little in common with the pilots who are VFR in VMC and when they file IFR it's often hard IMC.

Legal min requirements for IFR in real IMC, I'm just not going to fly that.

Most radios in IMC ships are nav coms, like a GNS, and loosing your "radio" means no talk and also no nav, not a fun thing to have happen in IMC, thus the reason most of the real IFR ships have dual GNS or the like.

I'd also add onto that you're going to want a autopilot with alt hold and GPSS at the very least if you're going to be playing in the soup as a single pilot IMC guy, there is a reason the 135 guys need a AP in leiu of a SIC.

Ideally I'd also have a HSI or eHSI with a flux.

Per the WAAS thing, it's a great thing to have, I'd want a WAAS box if I was buying, but to say a non WAAS GNS isn't very useful isn't accurate, you still can shoot all the normal VOR and ILS stuff, RNAVs, just can't shoot the LPVs and the like, where I live we have more non WAAS RNAVs than LPVs, that said WAAS also gives you a "complementary glide slope" on some non LPVs, it's not a LPV but helps to take out the step down, level out, step down, level out bit.

The added cost of a WAAS box might be spread out to the ads-b requirements pile as well.


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As mentioned previously, I have no desire to be in the soup. In my case, most of this necessity is caused from a simple cloud layer that precludes a VFR departure. Where I live is on the edge of moisture streams that develop in the Pacific, traverse Mexico and Texas and proceed to the eastern half of the US. Once clear of that moisture stream (usually about 100 miles), its VFR the rest of the way west.

Another issue I'm trying to cypher is if some of the ADSB equipage may dovetail with IFR. The WAAS feature seems to be one aspect that will. Determining which equipment that will provide WAAS that will work for IFR approaches and be useful for ADSB as well is a puzzle.

akgreg wrote:The new Garmins have 3D audio in which the active channel is in your left ear and the standby is in your right ear and copilot seems to come from behind and to the right. You can't adjust the volume between the two, but it's easy to tell the difference by the location. It's pretty slick.

Do you have to have a stereo intercom and stereo headset for this functionality to work? I think I know the answer but I thought I would ask?

The Garmin has a built in 2 place intercom for pilot and copilot. You need a stereo headset to enjoy the benefits.

That $9600 price is from gulf coast and is experimental only. I believe the minimum price for a new certified gtn 650 is about $12k plus installation. If you can find a 650 for just a grand more than a 430, you should do it. But I think in the real world you are looking at more like 3-4k not counting installation cost - which should be about the same.

Cary wrote:

corefile wrote:

Cary wrote:Another thought: with so many upgrading their panels to touch screens of one ilk or another, there are 430Ws on the market. Bennett Avionics (which is a good-guy type of dealer, fair and responsive) has them for $8,695. You'll also need a compatible indicator, and Bennett has those for $1,895. With both of those, you'll have the ability (once you learn how ) to shoot every kind of approach except ADF: ILS, GPS/RNAV of all kinds, and VOR.

Do NOT let yourself get talked into a straight 430 non-WAAS. Those are available for about $2200 less than the W, but with the proliferation of GPS/RNAV LPV approaches around the country, the extra benefit of the WAAS is well worth it--it gives you an electronic glideslope just like an ILS. In the 4 years I've had my 430W, I have lost track of the LPV approaches I've flown for real, and like I said earlier, I don't do all that much actual IFR.

You might find a better deal more locally to you--avionics dealers don't like keeping used equipment any longer than necessary. But if you can't, my experience with Todd Bennett was very good some years ago when I bought my ADF from him. Either way, assuming you install it yourself, you'll need to have it certified by an appropriately rated avionics tech to do GPS-derived approaches.

Cary

NO! Don't let yourself get talked into old GNS 430W for $8,695 - when you can get a brand new GTN 650 for $9,649.

*I mean I can't afford either - but while we are spending other peoples money - does not make much sense to buy and old 430W vs. new 650

Oh, I agree, if it's just a thou difference. Well, maybe not totally. When I bought my 430W new, the package including installation was about $2000 difference. Is there more labor involved with installing the 650? Heck, I don't know, but the $2000 difference at the time was enough to make me go with the 430W. While I was learning how to use it, I often had regrets for not going with the 650, which by all accounts is more user friendly. But now that I know the 430W pretty well, I still favor buttons and knobs over touch screens.

My point, of course, was that the WAAS capability is very definitely worth the $2200 price point between a 430 and a 430W. I should have also mentioned that the processor of a purpose-built 430W (not one that has been converted from a 430) is a bit faster so that the refresh rate is faster, but I don't know that that makes a whole lot of difference. The big thing is the WAAS capability, so even one of the conversions would be a better deal than a plain vanilla 430.

Cary