Long time lurker, first-time poster.

Everyone: we need to be having a broader conversation about backcountry etiquette.

This weekend I camped at Indian Creek. Recognizing that this is a busier airstrip, the behavior among the pilot community I witnessed there was nonetheless inexcusable.

To the owner of the fastback 182: first thing Sunday mornings at Indian Creek is not the place to make multiple takeoffs and landings just for fun. You woke us up, you woke the forest service up, and you woke up the rafting group - extremely inconsiderate. I apologized to the other groups there on your behalf.

To the owner of the black and white 182: Designated wilderness is not a great place to practice go-arounds.

To the group of five (six?) huskies: when you land in formation and take off again immediately, it is clear to the forest service and everyone involved that you have no reason to be there other than to joy-ride.

I have lived in Idaho my whole life and have watched this problem grow and fester. It is encouraged by social media and the constant posting of video. But designated wilderness airstrips are intended to be about *access to the wilderness*, not just the airborne equivalent of dirt bikes.

Please be conscientious and recognize your impact on others’ wilderness experience. I don’t know if there is - and maybe there should be - some kind of codified “etiquette”, but it’s common sense stuff: Don’t fly over campgrounds. Don’t make multiple takeoffs and landings. Have a reason for your visit other than the flying itself. Be a good neighbor and minimize your impact.

Thanks for posting Dave. We’ve had this discussion several times before and unfortunately we are the minority. But I’m glad you brought it up because we have to keep trying. Just make sure you have your flame suite on.

Good points all. Failure to follow basic, common sense etiquette may get airplanes banned from some strips, and makes it all that much harder to get access to other strips that are currently closed.

Again, this is just common sense and consideration for your fellow recreationist.

MTV

This happened to me too.... I was camping at the Skwenta fly-in and people got up right at 7am and broke out some lawn chairs and started talking 20 feet from my tent. I was really hoping for a little more sleep, or at least keep it down until everybody is up and about, but whatever. My wife and I decided to head home so we could sleep some more, so we tossed everything into the airplane a bolted out of there....

People are rude. It’s a societal thing. Back when u could punch someone in the nose for poor behavior without fear of going to prison, people seemed just a little more considerate of each other.
Nowadays there are zero consequences for being a jerk and everyone acts like they’re the most important person on earth.
I don’t want to live forever anymore....too much bs.

Well said Sierra Victor

Well I kind of like the sound of an 88 inch prop in the morning. But not everybody does.

Tim

Nice post.

As much as I LOVE backcountry camping being awakend at 5 AM SUCKS. It's part of the game but I hate it.

akschu wrote:This happened to me too.... I was camping at the Skwenta fly-in and people got up right at 7am and broke out some lawn chairs and started talking 20 feet from my tent....

7 am? In Alaska? In the spring? When the sun rise is like 5 am? Wake up you're burning daylight!

Barnstormer wrote:

akschu wrote:This happened to me too.... I was camping at the Skwenta fly-in and people got up right at 7am and broke out some lawn chairs and started talking 20 feet from my tent....

7 am? In Alaska? In the spring? When the sun rise is like 5 am? Wake up you're burning daylight!

What sun rise are you referring to? We haven't seen Nautical Twilight for a few days, Astronomical Twilight for a month, and the last time we had actual 'Dark' was the second week of April.

So if by sun rise, you mean actually seeing the sun on the horizon, yea 4:21 am. But if you are referring to real dark, it's been a while......

schu
(who is looking forward to seeing the stars again)

Not really about being woken up too early. More about people mobbing around in their airplanes being obnoxious with no respect for who else is out there.

low rider wrote:Not really about being woken up too early. More about people mobbing around in their airplanes being obnoxious with no respect for who else is out there.

Yep. Just seems to be how the world is these days.

Yep, and I thought I was the center of the universe......

MTV

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DO ... 416136.pdf

Might be worthwhile to read the second to the last paragraph on page 4.

Welcome to the site lurker Dave. Interesting first post. Reads like you’re a very experienced ID guy. I’m sure you have more to add than complaining about airplane noise at an airstrip. [emoji1]

Hmm... I am a huge proponent of keeping the piece and being a good neighbor and personally run an MT as I feel the Mac's are way too loud... but on this one, perhaps If sleeping in late and quiet is what you want, maybe dont camp on the flight line at a busy backcountry strip? With infinite places in this country to fly into and camp in seclusion, Im not sure Im on the same page with you. For me, the only reason I like to visit strips like that is FOR the camaraderie. You go because there ARE going to be other airplanes, not to get away. As far as getting on folks for touch and go's... GBflyer beat me to it... "While
this use is contradictory to the concept and spirit of the Wilderness Act and not encouraged by the Salmon-Challis National Forest, it has not been discouraged by either policy or direction."

From where I sit, when we start to give away ground, we risk having all our access taken away. Seems that deeming the airstrip for "access" only rather than "flying" is more of a subjective opinion, but then again, I wasnt there...

Thanks for bringing up the topic for debate.

Bigrenna wrote:Hmm... I am a huge proponent of keeping the piece and being a good neighbor, but on this one, perhaps If sleeping in late and quiet is what you want, maybe dont camp on the flight line at a busy backcountry strip? With infinite places in this country to fly into and camp in seclusion, Im not sure Im on the same page with you. For me, the only reason I like to visit strips like that is FOR the camaraderie. You go because there ARE going to be other airplanes, not to get away. As far as getting on folks for touch and go's... GBflyer beat me to it... "While
this use is contradictory to the concept and spirit of the Wilderness Act and not encouraged by the Salmon-Challis National Forest, it has not been discouraged by either policy or direction."

From where I sit, when we start to give away ground, we risk having all our access taken away. Seems that deeming the airstrip for "access" only rather than "flying" is more of a subjective opinion, but then again, I wasnt there...

Thanks for bringing up the topic for debate.

I do not want to do touch and go’s at 7:00 in the AM but I know one thing for sure that I will be taking off around that time before the DA get out of control for the afternoon. The 185 I will be in has an 88” prop!

Please accept my apologies in advance.

Quickdraw1 wrote:

Bigrenna wrote:Hmm... I am a huge proponent of keeping the piece and being a good neighbor, but on this one, perhaps If sleeping in late and quiet is what you want, maybe dont camp on the flight line at a busy backcountry strip? With infinite places in this country to fly into and camp in seclusion, Im not sure Im on the same page with you. For me, the only reason I like to visit strips like that is FOR the camaraderie. You go because there ARE going to be other airplanes, not to get away. As far as getting on folks for touch and go's... GBflyer beat me to it... "While
this use is contradictory to the concept and spirit of the Wilderness Act and not encouraged by the Salmon-Challis National Forest, it has not been discouraged by either policy or direction."

From where I sit, when we start to give away ground, we risk having all our access taken away. Seems that deeming the airstrip for "access" only rather than "flying" is more of a subjective opinion, but then again, I wasnt there...

Thanks for bringing up the topic for debate.

I do not want to do touch and go’s at 7:00 in the AM but I know one thing for sure that I will be taking off around that time before the DA get out of control for the afternoon. The 185 I will be in has an 88” prop!

Please accept my apologies in advance.

7:00 AM is about 5 hours and one minute before afternoon. In my old 182 with a measly 230 HP I have never had a problem with DA even at Smiley Creek if I am off by 10. Some folks just love noise.

Tim

gbflyer wrote:https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5416136.pdf

Might be worthwhile to read the second to the last paragraph on page 4.

Welcome to the site lurker Dave. Interesting first post. Reads like you’re a very experienced ID guy. I’m sure you have more to add than complaining about airplane noise at an airstrip. [emoji1]

+1

Welcome Dave!

http://theraf.org/sites/default/files/R ... duct_0.pdf

Worth a look.

Cheers...Rob

This has nothing to do with early morning vs. late morning takeoffs - no one would fault a pilot for an extra margin of safety provided they are otherwise being a good neighbor.

This has everything to do with the question of what is an appropriate use of backcountry airstrips in the wilderness. Fly in to camp, to hike, to hunt, to have lunch, to fish, to have breakfast, to take a nap, whatever. Great! Fly in to roar around a bit, make a bunch of take-offs and landings with your pals and otherwise irritate everyone seeking a bit of quiet and solitude, aviators or not? It's not cool. Like the pilot of this fastback 182? He was being as much of a jerk as the big-truck guy reving his engine and doing donuts in the campground. Have some sense.

And by the way, I stood with the forest service and watched them write down all of these tail numbers. They're paying attention, guys!

In my opinion, this paragraph:

...where pilots land and take off to check off that they have landed there before, or 'touch and go's' where pilots practice landing and taking off

Is not a statement of acceptable use - it's just a recognition of what is happening and the operative part of that whole thing is:

this use is contradictory to the concept and spirit of the Wilderness Act and, with one edit (in bold): it has not been yet been discouraged by either policy or direction..

Like I said, this is not a statement of acceptable use. It's a warning. And frankly, we don't need the forest service to define what constitutes being a jerk.

Bigrenna wrote:If sleeping in late and quiet is what you want, maybe dont camp on the flight line at a busy backcountry strip? With infinite places in this country to fly into and camp in seclusion, Im not sure Im on the same page with you. For me, the only reason I like to visit strips like that is FOR the camaraderie.

You're wrong about this. Indian Creek, as an example, is busy by design because of commercial operations and rafters (who are not, by the way, using the airstrip at this time of year), and because it's a hub for the forest service, not because it's a good place to socialize and certainly not because it's a good place to practice touch and goes. It is in the middle of one of (the?) largest wilderness and roadless areas in the lower 48. There are ample places to seek camaraderie. Go there if that is what you seek. Wilderness is about solitude and quiet.

As long as we're on the subject, infinite places to camp in seclusion? Maybe in your part of the country, or we have different definitions of seclusion, but with everyone and their mother making the pilgrimage to Idaho, this statement is just not correct.

I have noticed this 'Aviators Code of Conduct' on all Arizona Pilots Association backcountry airstrip briefings:

- Keep the noise signature of the aircraft to a safe minimum
- Practice 'leave no trace' camping. Fly it in, fly it out.
- Avoid very early morning departures unless safety of flight demands a deviation
- Be courteous to other users in the area.
- Do not use these airstrips for training purposes or just to say "I've been there."
- Keep the aircraft clean of noxious weed seeds to prevent the spread of weeds to backcountry airstrips.
- Participate whenever possible in work events to maintain these airstrips.

These are common sense rules and I am surprised they are not a bigger part of this community. That there is even disagreement on these points boggles the mind.