DaveID wrote:Long time lurker, first-time poster.

Everyone: we need to be having a broader conversation about backcountry etiquette.

This weekend I camped at Indian Creek. Recognizing that this is a busier airstrip, the behavior among the pilot community I witnessed there was nonetheless inexcusable.

To the owner of the fastback 182: first thing Sunday mornings at Indian Creek is not the place to make multiple takeoffs and landings just for fun. You woke us up, you woke the forest service up, and you woke up the rafting group - extremely inconsiderate. I apologized to the other groups there on your behalf.

To the owner of the black and white 182: Designated wilderness is not a great place to practice go-arounds.

To the group of five (six?) huskies: when you land in formation and take off again immediately, it is clear to the forest service and everyone involved that you have no reason to be there other than to joy-ride.

I have lived in Idaho my whole life and have watched this problem grow and fester. It is encouraged by social media and the constant posting of video. But designated wilderness airstrips are intended to be about *access to the wilderness*, not just the airborne equivalent of dirt bikes.

Please be conscientious and recognize your impact on others’ wilderness experience. I don’t know if there is - and maybe there should be - some kind of codified “etiquette”, but it’s common sense stuff: Don’t fly over campgrounds. Don’t make multiple takeoffs and landings. Have a reason for your visit other than the flying itself. Be a good neighbor and minimize your impact.

Wow, I can't imagine anyone being rude enough to actually take off and land at an airstrip!
Some people just don't get that they need to check with whoever claims to be in charge of the public airstrip!

Maybe it would be good to put up an "airport monitor" sign in front of your tent so that people know just exactly who is in charge!.


Wait a minute, What happens if the guy getting up early to take advantage of the nice calm cool air decides to take a nap around noon?

What time did you fire up your plane Dave?

Maybe you ruined someones experience???

TangoFox wrote:

DaveID wrote:Long time lurker, first-time poster.

Everyone: we need to be having a broader conversation about backcountry etiquette.

This weekend I camped at Indian Creek. Recognizing that this is a busier airstrip, the behavior among the pilot community I witnessed there was nonetheless inexcusable.

To the owner of the fastback 182: first thing Sunday mornings at Indian Creek is not the place to make multiple takeoffs and landings just for fun. You woke us up, you woke the forest service up, and you woke up the rafting group - extremely inconsiderate. I apologized to the other groups there on your behalf.

To the owner of the black and white 182: Designated wilderness is not a great place to practice go-arounds.

To the group of five (six?) huskies: when you land in formation and take off again immediately, it is clear to the forest service and everyone involved that you have no reason to be there other than to joy-ride.

I have lived in Idaho my whole life and have watched this problem grow and fester. It is encouraged by social media and the constant posting of video. But designated wilderness airstrips are intended to be about *access to the wilderness*, not just the airborne equivalent of dirt bikes.

Please be conscientious and recognize your impact on others’ wilderness experience. I don’t know if there is - and maybe there should be - some kind of codified “etiquette”, but it’s common sense stuff: Don’t fly over campgrounds. Don’t make multiple takeoffs and landings. Have a reason for your visit other than the flying itself. Be a good neighbor and minimize your impact.

Wow, I can't imagine anyone being rude enough to actually take off and land at an airstrip!
Some people just don't get that they need to check with whoever claims to be in charge of the public airstrip!

Maybe it would be good to put up an "airport monitor" sign in front of your tent so that people know just exactly who is in charge!.


Wait a minute, What happens if the guy getting up early to take advantage of the nice calm cool air decides to take a nap around noon?

What time did you fire up your plane Dave?

Maybe you ruined someones experience???

This is a ridiculous mis-characterization of what I wrote.

DaveID wrote:This has nothing to do with early morning vs. late morning takeoffs - no one would fault a pilot for an extra margin of safety provided they are otherwise being a good neighbor.

This has everything to do with the question of what is an appropriate use of backcountry airstrips in the wilderness. Fly in to camp, to hike, to hunt, to have lunch, to fish, to have breakfast, to take a nap, whatever. Great! Fly in to roar around a bit, make a bunch of take-offs and landings with your pals and otherwise irritate everyone seeking a bit of quiet and solitude, aviators or not? It's not cool. Like the pilot of this fastback 182? He was being as much of a jerk as the big-truck guy reving his engine and doing donuts in the campground. Have some sense.

And by the way, I stood with the forest service and watched them write down all of these tail numbers. They're paying attention, guys!

In my opinion, this paragraph:

...where pilots land and take off to check off that they have landed there before, or 'touch and go's' where pilots practice landing and taking off

Is not a statement of acceptable use - it's just a recognition of what is happening and the operative part of that whole thing is:

this use is contradictory to the concept and spirit of the Wilderness Act and, with one edit (in bold): it has not been yet been discouraged by either policy or direction..

Like I said, this is not a statement of acceptable use. It's a warning. And frankly, we don't need the forest service to define what constitutes being a jerk.

Bigrenna wrote:If sleeping in late and quiet is what you want, maybe dont camp on the flight line at a busy backcountry strip? With infinite places in this country to fly into and camp in seclusion, Im not sure Im on the same page with you. For me, the only reason I like to visit strips like that is FOR the camaraderie.

You're wrong about this. Indian Creek, as an example, is busy by design because of commercial operations and rafters (who are not, by the way, using the airstrip at this time of year), and because it's a hub for the forest service, not because it's a good place to socialize and certainly not because it's a good place to practice touch and goes. It is in the middle of one of (the?) largest wilderness and roadless areas in the lower 48. There are ample places to seek camaraderie. Go there if that is what you seek. Wilderness is about solitude and quiet.

As long as we're on the subject, infinite places to camp in seclusion? Maybe in your part of the country, or we have different definitions of seclusion, but with everyone and their mother making the pilgrimage to Idaho, this statement is just not correct.

I have noticed this 'Aviators Code of Conduct' on all Arizona Pilots Association backcountry airstrip briefings:

- Keep the noise signature of the aircraft to a safe minimum
- Practice 'leave no trace' camping. Fly it in, fly it out.
- Avoid very early morning departures unless safety of flight demands a deviation
- Be courteous to other users in the area.
- Do not use these airstrips for training purposes or just to say "I've been there."
- Keep the aircraft clean of noxious weed seeds to prevent the spread of weeds to backcountry airstrips.
- Participate whenever possible in work events to maintain these airstrips.

These are common sense rules and I am surprised they are not a bigger part of this community. That there is even disagreement on these points boggles the mind.

One can drive a big truck to this airstrip and irritate the campers also? I thought it was wilderness? Not trying to be a wise-ass, just not familiar with much of ID backcountry other than an overflight thinking how rugged those canyons look.

I don't think that Dave is trying to say not to use the airstrip, and not to disturb anybody, I think he is saying to be respectful and courteous and not make a bunch of noise for no reason.

At my fly-in I left early because people were being noisy, and started pushing my airplane to the runway so that I'm not blasting anyone's tents or making more noise than needed, but when the 185 next to me fired up, I figured what's the point. If he is going to taxi around other airplanes/tents, then the deed has been done.

I think some listening and reflecting is in order.....

Random thoughts (mostly geared at Lower 48 flying) cause I haven't yet had enough coffee to group things in any kind of order.

When I was learning to fly the Idaho backcountry strips (in a 185) I remember commenting to my instructor about the sound of the plane reverberating off the canyon walls. Without a moments hesitation he said "it's the sound of supplies being brought in and the sound of rescue".

Repeated touch and goes (for no purpose other then touch and goes) anywhere in the backcountry is totally and completely unnecessary, don't do it. Every airplane skill one needs to learn STOL and Backcountry ops can and should be learned at a regular airport- where one is a lot less likely to damage a plane then by practicing in the backcountry. Then polish those skills as you enjoy the backcountry.

Flying from strip to strip to strip in the backcountry? Fine if it has a purpose other then just "strip bagging". Example, again when I was learning in Idaho we started on a relatively easy strip Sulphur Creek, where we ate breakfast, and progressed through the day to more difficult strips ending up at Cabin Creek. At each strip we'd get out and talk about the approach and departure options and anything else that was relevant.

With a new 185 in my stable I'm very aware that everyone within a 5 mile radius can hear me taking off. This week I need to learn her on the performance edge necessitating lots of takeoffs and landings. I won't do that at my strip cause I've got neighbors. Instead I'll go over to Soldotna where perhaps a hundred aircraft are based, and training and bush flights take place each and every day.

Don't like being woken up at the crack of dawn with airplanes taking off? Don't sleep where there are other airplanes. Don't like being woken up at the crack of dawn by the camper next to you? Don't camp with other people. That all seems like common sense to me.

This I do know. Use it or loose it. Like backcountry strips? Fly them as frequently as possible. The less they are used the more there use will appear to intrude on others use of the land and the more they will complain. Until one day... and "poof" they vanish.

Oh come on guys.
Dave’s post is being taken out of context.
I don’t see that he’s complaining about anything other than rude behavior, which is hard to define, but we all know it when we see it.
If we can’t all agree to be considerate of others then we are doomed.
I can’t see where doing multiple touch and goes at a backcountry strip with groups of campers watching is anything other than rude behavior. It just is.

BTW welcome Dave!

akschu wrote:I don't think that Dave is trying to say not to use the airstrip, and not to disturb anybody, I think he is saying to be respectful and courteous and not make a bunch of noise for no reason.

At my fly-in I left early because people were being noisy, and started pushing my airplane to the runway so that I'm not blasting anyone's tents or making more noise than needed, but when the 185 next to me fired up, I figured what's the point. If he is going to taxi around other airplanes/tents, then the deed has been done.

I think some listening and reflecting is in order.....

I'm not against being a good neighbor, it does however concern me when someone like Dave wants to regulate everyone else into complying with his personal wishes! If it were his personal airstrip that he owned then yes of course he would be the authority, but its not, it is a public place.
If I go camp at an airstrip I expect to hear airplanes. it seems pretty simple.
I personally would not be doing touch and goes early in the morning because I would want to be a good neighbor to whoever is there but that doesn't mean I wouldn't take off at the crack of dawn to go check out some other areas either.

How does dave know the guy in the 182 was doing this to be a dick?
Could it be he was either new to back country flying or new to this particular airstrip and wanted to hone his skills?
Maybe those were actual go arounds where the 182 driver didn't feel comfortable landing???

I don't know and i'm sure Dave doesn't know either.

There are a lot of variables to flying in the back country and every strip has it's own deal, and if a pilot wants to use backcountry strips that pilot has the responsibility to practice to be the best he or she can be!
Sometimes it means landing more than once at a place.

Hmmm i wonder if the first time Dave flew in he just landed right away or did he do a hot dogging low pass and look at the airstrip and make sure there weren't any obstructions on the strip.



At this point we are not even sure Dave flew himself in there. Maybe he is just one of those people who took a few lessons in the 80's and thinks he now has the right to tell everyone else how they should be flying???

.

I agree with the OP. Be polite and respectful to the best of your ability if circumstances allow. (when doing anything BTW)! No big deal. Note: DA is a huge consideration out West in the high country, unavoidable aircraft takeoff times for many.

By the way GBFlyer, you and your dad were very polite, so I signed your BFR’s! Thank you for letting me drive the Jeeps for three weeks! Ha ha!

TangoFox wrote:I'm not against being a good neighbor, it does however concern me when someone like Dave wants to regulate everyone else into complying with his personal wishes! If it were his personal airstrip that he owned then yes of course he would be the authority, but its not, it is a public place.
If I go camp at an airstrip I expect to hear airplanes. it seems pretty simple.
I personally would not be doing touch and goes early in the morning because I would want to be a good neighbor to whoever is there but that doesn't mean I wouldn't take off at the crack of dawn to go check out some other areas either.

How does dave know the guy in the 182 was doing this to be a dick?
Could it be he was either new to back country flying or new to this particular airstrip and wanted to hone his skills?
Maybe those were actual go arounds where the 182 driver didn't feel comfortable landing???

We are more in agreement than you realize. I object to the idea that I am trying to regulate people's behavior but also accept that that's the natural conclusion here and in reality, we all need to regulate our own behavior.

And if we don't regulate our behavior and if no one steps up and says something like this, the forest service and other wilderness users will regulate it for us. See again: this use is contradictory to the concept and spirit of the Wilderness Act ... it has not been yet been discouraged by either policy or direction.

There is a time and a place for everything. Yes, I recognize that when I camp with airplanes, I'm likely to hear airplanes. That doesn't mean that multiple take-offs and landings, practice go-arounds, and being an all-around dildo in the wilderness is okay. And I don't think that you think that, either.

I agree - I don't know if the 182 guy was intentionally being a jerk. I would assume not - who would intentionally be a jerk? Maybe he was just clueless. And if he was just clueless, all the more reason for this post / discussion.

I also agree that maybe that guy was legitimately going-around. But his multiple approaches and landings didn't suggest it, and if you're struggling to get into 4,000'+ long Indian Creek on a perfect weather, zero-wind day, you need to practice elsewhere. This is not a place for practice.

There are places where this is acceptable and places where this is unacceptable. Know the difference.

Barnstormer wrote:This I do know. Use it or loose it. Like backcountry strips? Fly them as frequently as possible. The less they are used the more there use will appear to intrude on others use of the land and the more they will complain. Until one day... and "poof" they vanish.

Very True

It seems like some people are piling on the original poster--
"maybe he's just one of those people who took a few lessons in the 80's and thinks he now has the right to tell everyone else how they should be flying???." type comments seem uncalled for.
That's the kind of thing that runs people off from this site who just might have a lot to contribute.
And I don't get that he's trying to "regulate" anyone--
like he said in his last post, more suggesting that people should regulate themselves.

I'd say live by the golden rule--
treat others as you'd like to be treated.
I agree that more and more people seem to act like they're the only person in the world who matters,

Drinking coffee and talking in camp at 7am doesn't seem that bad.
Been there, done (and experienced) that, not a big deal.
A bunch of drunken assholes staying up til the wee hours loudly bullshitting in camp is worse IMHO.
Been there, experienced that too-- no fun.

Crack-o-dawn touch-and-go's on a wilderness area airstrip-- not too cool.
Or too smart, re making a poor impression on the non-flying public.
An early morning departure, to beat density altitude and maybe get a jump on a long flight home--
that's OK and very understandable.

Strip-bagging...I'm of two minds on this.
So they're flying just for the flying, so what?
What's the difference between that and mountain-climbers peak-bagging?
Both legitimate uses of wilderness.
One might create noise which bothers some folks,
the other might need rescue (this happens more and more these days),
which is not only noisy (think helo's) but costs the public a lot of money as well as risking other lives.
BTW I'm sure there's a few dirt-bikers on this site,
I'm surprised that none of them have piped in about the negative comments aimed their way.

TangoFox wrote:

Barnstormer wrote:This I do know. Use it or loose it. Like backcountry strips? Fly them as frequently as possible. The less they are used the more there use will appear to intrude on others use of the land and the more they will complain. Until one day... and "poof" they vanish.

Very True

This is absolutely not true at all. Judicious use is the target.

hotrod180 wrote:BTW I'm sure there's a few dirt-bikers on this site,
I'm surprised that none of them have piped in about the negative comments aimed their way.

Great example. They've already been banned from the wilderness.

hotrod180 wrote:Strip-bagging...I'm of two minds on this.
So they're flying just for the flying, so what?
What's the difference between that and mountain-climbers peak-bagging?
Both legitimate uses of wilderness.
One might create noise which bothers some folks,
the other might need rescue (this happens more and more these days),
which is not only noisy (think helo's) but costs the public a lot of money as well as risking other lives.

Like most issues in general politeness, the question is how much does it impact other people. In general (emergency rescues aside, I suppose), mountain climbing has very little impact on other people. Strip bagging has huge impact on other people - it's frigging loud, it really is. And that's a huge detriment to the wilderness experience of others. There's no way around it.

DaveID wrote:

TangoFox wrote:I'm not against being a good neighbor, it does however concern me when someone like Dave wants to regulate everyone else into complying with his personal wishes! If it were his personal airstrip that he owned then yes of course he would be the authority, but its not, it is a public place.
If I go camp at an airstrip I expect to hear airplanes. it seems pretty simple.
I personally would not be doing touch and goes early in the morning because I would want to be a good neighbor to whoever is there but that doesn't mean I wouldn't take off at the crack of dawn to go check out some other areas either.

How does dave know the guy in the 182 was doing this to be a dick?
Could it be he was either new to back country flying or new to this particular airstrip and wanted to hone his skills?
Maybe those were actual go arounds where the 182 driver didn't feel comfortable landing???

We are more in agreement than you realize. I object to the idea that I am trying to regulate people's behavior but also accept that that's the natural conclusion here and in reality, we all need to regulate our own behavior.

And if we don't regulate our behavior and if no one steps up and says something like this, the forest service and other wilderness users will regulate it for us. See again: this use is contradictory to the concept and spirit of the Wilderness Act ... it has not been yet been discouraged by either policy or direction.

There is a time and a place for everything. Yes, I recognize that when I camp with airplanes, I'm likely to hear airplanes. That doesn't mean that multiple take-offs and landings, practice go-arounds, and being an all-around dildo in the wilderness is okay. And I don't think that you think that, either.

I agree - I don't know if the 182 guy was intentionally being a jerk. I would assume not - who would intentionally be a jerk? Maybe he was just clueless. And if he was just clueless, all the more reason for this post / discussion.

I also agree that maybe that guy was legitimately going-around. But his multiple approaches and landings didn't suggest it, and if you're struggling to get into 4,000'+ long Indian Creek on a perfect weather, zero-wind day, you need to practice elsewhere. This is not a place for practice.

There are places where this is acceptable and places where this is unacceptable. Know the difference.

If he or she were indeed practicing go arounds would indicate to me that they were a fairly low time pilot or had someone right seat in the cockpit helping them to learn to safely land at the strip. The only times i have practiced go arounds were either training or a check ride. I have done actual go arounds on occasion but not too often. I assume most pilots would have similar experiences.



So my question to you is: did you fly your own plane in or were you just camped there?

TangoFox wrote:
So my question to you is: did you fly your own plane in or were you just camped there?

And how is that relevant to the discussion?

DaveID wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:BTW I'm sure there's a few dirt-bikers on this site,
I'm surprised that none of them have piped in about the negative comments aimed their way.

Great example. They've already been banned from the wilderness.

Still agree with Dave (OP)...

Been dirt biking since the 70’s. Back in Palos Verdes, CA we could run unlicensed motorcycles almost anywhere on the street and dirt. The police pretty much didn’t care. We could ride in people’s back yards and nobody said a word. Just have a little common sense, it was all good. Those days are gone! The home owners now are so strict it’s ridiculous.

Fast forward 40+ years...

I still ride and even take my bike inter island. Hawaii fortunately has off-rode vehicles areas (Thank you DNLR) I cherish every minute on my bike and am really respectful to others. I love riding!

Warning volcanic “Red dirt” never comes clean!


Kahuku Pt:


XR650L returning from Kona in a “G” container, Young Brothers Tug and Barge:

Years ago, I was asked by Fairbanks International Airport management to write an article on "good behavior" at the airport, for their quarterly newsletter. I titled the article "Blast It!". The issues being discussed here have a lot parallels in other aspects of flying, and life in general.

Watch someone push their plane out of a maintenance hangar, leave the tail pointed right at that big hangar door, fire up, WARM UP, then power out of there......how to make points with your mechanics, by the way.

How about the pilot who, instead of doing the runup in the runup area or back out of the way, waits till they're at the hold short line, then does a very deliberate, and lengthy runup? All while you are parked behind them, awaiting takeoff, because you got your pre takeoff checks done BEFORE you got to the hold short bars....

And, it goes on. Makes no difference whether you're in the Frank Church Wilderness or Kennedy International, frankly......try to be considerate to the other person.

As Dave pointed out, there's no need to perform touch and goes at most back country strips.....unless you simply can't hit your intended touchdown spot the first time. And, if that's the case, you need to go back to a "real" airport, and learn to fly your airplane. I firmly agree that backcountry airstrips are NOT good places to be practicing BASIC skills.

And, if this is your first time into a strip, with an instructor, the best way to benefit from the instruction is to land, park, shut down and discuss the approach, touchdown and roll out. Discussing this stuff enroute to the next strip is not an effective learning environment.

But, multiple landings at any remote strip should be avoided if at all possible. If you can't land a 4000 foot long strip the first time, the third time probably won't be much better. You should have figured those skills out long before heading for the back country.

Takeoffs at 7 AM.....hopefully just enroute early to avoid thermals, and squirrelly winds later in the day.

But, sometimes I find myself acting like I'm the center of the universe too. Hopefully, I don't do that in a manner that ruins someone else's back country experience.

Sometimes all you have to do is to stop for a moment and THINK about what you're about to do.

But, I firmly believe that 95 % of the "practice" should be done in town, NOT in the backcountry.....wilderness or not.

MTV

Glad I live in NY,

No airplanes (Or any mechanized vehicles) allowed in wilderness areas, so we don't have any of these pesky problems...

Pete