Scolopax wrote:Everyone has an imaginary line beyond which the airplane becomes a nuisance, and chances are you have or will cross someone's line while using your airplane.

Everyone's line lies slightly beyond the limits of their own use...

Agreed, but here is the the point: I'm completely aware that my airplane crosses people's imaginary line, and I try my darndest to act accordingly. I don't do it perfectly and I'm a hypocrite too, but I do try to be considerate, and just trying goes a long way.

Years ago I had a snowmobile that was loud. I mean really really loud. Like 190HP with twin pipes dumped to the a-arm well loud.

It was typical that my buds would show up at 7am to load up to head out, and I would insist we man handle it onto the trailer without starting it. Friends would ask, why, it's only 20 seconds, and I would explain that that 20 seconds would wake up everybody in a 3 mile radius, and when it came time for them to vote about outlawing snowmachines, or taking away riding areas, their only experience with them would be my loud ass sled pissing off the neighbor hood.

I was very careful to never ride that thing around people, and eventually I went back to a single pipe and heavy can. I put a bit of performance back onto the table, but hey, I'd rather not people hate my sled.

schu

akschu wrote:

pburns wrote:Glad I live in NY,

No airplanes (Or any mechanized vehicles) allowed in wilderness areas, so we don't have any of these pesky problems...

Pete

In that case I'm glad you live in NY too.... Keep that attitude right where it is.

Tongue-in-cheek, my good friend. We must be sensitive to it to ensure maximum fun.

akschu wrote:I was very careful to never ride that thing around people, and eventually I went back to a single pipe and heavy can. I put a bit of performance back onto the table, but hey, I'd rather not people hate my sled.

schu

Haha! I thought this same thing. My loud sled was years ago; XC600 with triple pipes. That thing literally hurt my ears to ride. Hand loaded it on the early morning and late nights. I’m not a fan of loud anything these days; partially for myself, partially for those around me.

DaveID wrote:To the group of five (six?) huskies: when you land in formation and take off again immediately, it is clear to the forest service and everyone involved that you have no reason to be there other than to joy-ride...... Have a reason for your visit other than the flying itself.

The ID backcountry has become known as a premier place to fly into smaller strips and challenge yourself. These pilots don't need another reason to visit a public airstrip other than for the flying itself, the 'Joy-ride' as you put it.

Next time you want a late sleep in, I would suggest you do not camp at a public airstrip, or, a hotel next to LAX.... same concept.

This post reeks of "locals only attitude of SoCal surfers, people are coming from all over the states to fly in Idaho just to "Bag" strips, the have the right and ability to enjoy the backcountry by plane if that is their gig.

whee wrote:
IDK why TangoFoxtrot came out swinging but I've always appreciated his posts. Maybe he hadn't had his coffee yet.

Ha ha I was actually sitting down enjoying my first cup and reading through the latest posts like I do most mornings.

I do believe everyone should try to be as courteous as possible to our fellow pilots and others, but Dave was calling people out as being inconsiderate when he had no way of knowing what was happening. That rubs me the wrong way! I also have no idea what exactly the guy in the 182 was doing but it is not beyond the realm of possibilities that he was trying to get into back country flying. He or she may even be a member here. It sounds like he ran right over to the forest service guys and started pointing fingers. I'm pretty sure the forest service didn't track him down to seek his advice on the matter.

The mission of this community is to promote back country flying. Hopefully there will be new people all of the time learning to appreciate the Great flying opportunities that are out there. If you see someone doing these kinds of things maybe it would be best to go talk to them and learn why they are doing a go around or why they are doing multiple landings before getting on the Interweb and complaining.

Also like mtv said, 95% of backcountry flying should be learned before you get there... but I know the last 5% give or take can only be learned by actually going into these places we enjoy so much. I'm just fine with somebody practicing on a relatively easy 4000' dirt runway. In fact that is probably the best place for them to get their feet wet and see if this is something they would truly like to do. That is much better than seeing a missing airplane on the news then later someone finding it balled up on the end of an airstrip.

Also the other thing that made me suspect a troll is the whole thing about 5-6 Huskies making a formation Landing and takeoff.
That would be a pretty good trick on that strip

Headoutdaplane wrote:This post reeks of "locals only attitude of SoCal surfers, people are coming from all over the states to fly in Idaho just to "Bag" strips, the have the right and ability to enjoy the backcountry by plane if that is their gig.

The following post is from my personal research and interest in “Localism”, the post does not express my opinion(s). As everyone who travels is prudent to do so.

Territorial conflicts have been apart of the surfing world from day (1), very similar to backcountry residences being pushed around by weekend warriors. Thankfully, I have enough resources to pretty much surf anywhere on planet and fly anywhere in North America. So, if i’m NOT welcome no big deal, just find another cool place. Seaplanes make this a little easier.

The following movie is “Busti’n Down the Door”. The early outsiders of surfing were beaten, murdered and threatened by locals of Oahu’s North Shore. It was a very heavy scene. The Australians were carrying loaded guns and traveled in large groups. A surfer from Australia named Rabbit Bartholomew wrote this article https://www.surfer.com/features/bustin-down-the-door-archive-rabbit-bartholomew/ and got his teeth knocked out.

Rabbit’s incident inspired an excellent movie regardless if you are into surfing or not. Take some time to watch it if you are into going to other people’s backyard.

All good points made by all parties! No one should stay up til 3:00am carrying on or do touch and go at 7:00am. Just remember the “Golden Rules”.

People hike, fish, bike, mountain climb, watch sports, white water raft my family flys. It does not matter if it is in Ohio, Pennsylvania, WV, Florida, Nebraska, California, NM, Alaska or Yukon Territory we airport hop and see different places and check out cool strips. That is what we do and have done all my life. So if you think I am going to travel to Idaho, Utah, Colorado or Montana to do stuff other than fly well can’t help you there. Yes we are going to hit every strip we can while we are in Idaho for the 180/185 fly in the next few weeks. I did not fly that far not to go exploring! We are there to fly and everything else is secondary.

whee wrote:Dave, I am honestly glad your here and started this discussion but please stop being an ass. This discussion needs to be had and we have a great community here that in most cases can have a polite discussion even with opposing views.

IDK why TangoFoxtrot came out swinging but I've always appreciated his posts. Maybe he hadn't had his coffee yet.

Scolopax wrote:Everyone has an imaginary line beyond which the airplane becomes a nuisance, and chances are you have or will cross someone's line while using your airplane.

Everyone's line lies slightly beyond the limits of their own use...

I think this is dead on. It's like jet-skis, everyone hates them unless they are the one riding them. We should all be considerate of other people's lines and do what we can to not be terribly annoying.

As of yet no one is breaking any rules, though the intent of wilderness areas is clearly being broken. It's only a matter of time before airplanes become such an nuisance to the other users that we will be required to get permits to enter the wilderness boundary. I have to do it in my raft and my jet boat because of the impact and the number of each type of user.

No one says to not use the strip unless you are going to stay there for X amount of time. Just be considerate of others.

I sure don't think Dave is being an ass, far from it. Dave is saying what needs to be said. I think it would be beneficial to all to wise up a bit and listen to what he is saying before we all get thrown out of some wonderful places to fly.

Kurt

Ass was the wrong word, I apologize. As I previously stated, I agree with Dave‘s point. There is an issue here and it needs be addressed. What I don’t agree with is him telling people their opinions are wrong because they don’t align with his opinion or interpretation.

I think it’s great that people come to my home state and enjoy it. I just wish they would consider what impact their actions might have. Idaho Aeronautics already has cameras at some airports documenting who’s coming and going. I’d bet the FS has cameras at airports too. I know they use them on non-motorized trails to catch people breaking the rules. All they need is enough documentation showing abuse and our access will be gone/severely limited.

TangoFox wrote: I do believe everyone should try to be as courteous as possible to our fellow pilots and others, but Dave was calling people out as being inconsiderate when he had no way of knowing what was happening.

It's true - I didn't know what their intent was. Just like it doesn't matter if my intent was to drunk drive. "But officer, I didn't intent to rob that bank!". That's not my beef. My point is there is no reasonable reason to do this. And again, for the one-hundredth time, it's not about the time of day, although that was just egregious. I would equally object if this was at 1 o'clock in the afternoon!

TangoFox wrote:It sounds like he ran right over to the forest service guys and started pointing fingers.

This is merely conjecture and for the record, is not the case.

TangoFox wrote:Also the other thing that made me suspect a troll is the whole thing about 5-6 Huskies making a formation Landing and takeoff. That would be a pretty good trick on that strip

It was a pretty quick in-and-out, yes. But that didn't make it any less like a band of roving ATVers. Which again, nothing against ATVs: this is just not the place for them.

Quickdraw1 wrote:All good points made by all parties! No one should stay up til 3:00am carrying on or do touch and go at 7:00am. Just remember the “Golden Rules”.

Thumbs up!

Quickdraw1 wrote:People hike, fish, bike, mountain climb, watch sports, white water raft my family flys. It does not matter if it is in Ohio, Pennsylvania, WV, Florida, Nebraska, California, NM, Alaska or Yukon Territory we airport hop and see different places and check out cool strips. That is what we do and have done all my life. So if you think I am going to travel to Idaho, Utah, Colorado or Montana to do stuff other than fly well can’t help you there. Yes we are going to hit every strip we can while we are in Idaho for the 180/185 fly in the next few weeks. I did not fly that far not to go exploring! We are there to fly and everything else is secondary.

Sigh.... Thumbs down.

I'm realizing that I'm not going to win over some of you, but I don't have to worry about that. I will have to be okay with the fact that this message is getting out to lots and lots of people that aren't commenting and that are considering backcountry adventures this summer. This is not a message of "don't come to Idaho," or "don't takeoff early," even. It's a plea for polite, courteous, reasonable use, a recognition that there are other wilderness users - most of whom would love nothing more than to chop us off at the knees - and the suggestion that when you plan your trips, that you are aware of where you are going and what is appropriate when you get there.

And, no, I don't get to set the rules! The rules and intent are right there in the preamble of the Wilderness Act:

there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.

Ours is a special provision. Do what you can to preserve it, please.

I completely get the whole be respectful thing. I have seen things in other countries that makes me embarrassed to be an American sometimes. We tend to be rude/demanding/disrespectful far more than we realize.

With that being said... lol..

When you invest six figures in a toy.... (It's a toy. Let's face it)
And it takes you 20 hours of flying and a thousand or three just to get to what I consider aviation Mecca.... (And the same amount roughly to go back to your sandbox)
How many take offs and landings are considered too many at one place? Not trolling here. Genuinely asking this group for a courteous number. I am guessing it will be 1 or maybe 2.

Personally, I might do one to at most three laps tops in the pattern at some of those remote places. One may NEVER get the chance to do that sort of flying again so why would anyone fly all the way out there just to land once and take off once? While I love the scenery, I love the flying even more, so I am pretty sure I would want to experience the "thrill" of taking off and landing more than one time. Probably in the same day...

Where our airplane is based in NC I am lucky to have a fair number of grass strips within a fairly small radius. If I am bug killing I generally leave my field, fly for a bit to get things nice and warmed up, and then make ONE landing and departure from the strips in my circuit and head home. There after returning I usually do 2 more laps in the pattern and call it quits. That is probably the mindset I would take on a trip like that out west. Would I be in the wrong???

Here is what I see a lot. There are a boatload of people in the world these days. More than there used to be. And a boatload of those people have a boatload of $$$. (Edit. I am NOT one of those people. lol.) More than there used to be. And those folks buy toys and want to go places. That causes more congestion at places that didn't use to have it. I am joking here but most airplanes don't do pattern work at O'hare but there sure is a bunch of activity there. I think that same sort of problem is spilling over into the lower 48 backcountry. I have seen some of the pics of these "remote" places and have been quite surprised at the number of airplanes parked on the field. What is the solution to traffic at a place that is popular??? I have been to Yellowstone in a car and vowed not to go again during the busy season....

I am tired and my post is not making a lot of sense. lol. However I think I know what the OP is trying to say. Basically try to be a good neighbor. Unfortunately we all tend to have a different definition of what that is. Good topic of discussion though imo.

hotrod180 wrote:BTW I'm sure there's a few dirt-bikers on this site,
I'm surprised that none of them have piped in about the negative comments aimed their way.

Ok I’m one of those dirt bikers and unfortunately my reputation precedes me.
I believe in enjoying the outdoors in a legal and respectful manner. If I offend anyone I try to apologize and do better.
If that doesn’t work then kiss my butt.[emoji8]

Since we are talking about wilderness area though this is a mute topic [emoji41]

Sierra Victor wrote:People are rude. It’s a societal thing. Back when u could punch someone in the nose for poor behavior without fear of going to prison, people seemed just a little more considerate of each other.
Nowadays there are zero consequences for being a jerk and everyone acts like they’re the most important person on earth.
I don’t want to live forever anymore....too much bs.

Condemnation of your peers while kissing up to figures of authority was also a sound basis for punching someone in the nose before we became a nation under an overbearing legal system. The "my shit doesn't stink" busy body attitude is every bit as pervasive in our culture and even more annoying than rudeness for some of us.

Since part of this debate revolves around the use of wilderness. Lands set aside were suppose to meet the definition of the 1964 Wilderness Act.

https://www.wilderness.net/nwps/legisact

DEFINITION OF WILDERNESS

(c) A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.

Many areas in the Frank Church were settled by man, were being logged, mined, ranched, and some farming. Even though technically it was not eligible for wilderness designation, this never stops wilderness groups. They got the power to make these fake wildernesses happen.

This is an ongoing fight to determine the current and future control of fake wilderness.

We pilots are better than fake wilderness lovers. How many dead body's and piles of human crap litter Mt Everest? Remember, hikers and climbers consider themselves the top wilderness caretakers.

Cheers...Rob

DaveID wrote:
Ours is a special provision. Do what you can to preserve it, please.

Amen.

Over here our wilderness areas allow no aircraft landings, there is no exception.

The special privileges you enjoy are worth protecting at all costs.

I spent an hour making a big long political correct post and it got lost So this one will be short and simple. I agree sometimes pilots/myself do stupid thing but I will also say things happen for a reason. We loose new pilots up here every year because they got over their head trying to fly land somewhere they did not have the training for. So as far as 5 planes landing and leaving what better way to show a flatlanders/new pilots the strip?? That is a huge strip but in bad weather, someone new to mountain flying, or a low time pilot, it can get small fast. I often go alone to a new strip before I bring in passengers or other aircraft. So when you apologized for noise at a runway did you point out any of the safety reasons a pilot would be flying early in the morning (wind, temp) or with a group? It is a balance and we have to minimize impact but also be SAFE!! Anytime you can go to a new runway on a good day your return will be better in bad weather. If we can educate the public that just landing on a two mile long runway is not preparing a pilot for mountain flying, they will understand.
DENNY

Oh man, this is great. I needed a good read. Now I just need some popcorn.

Anyway, there are a lot of good points raised. I think I understand where everyone is coming from.

I think a person should be courteous. I wouldn't do something if it was going to needlessly bother others. (I don't mind waking up to engines, but I know other people do mind.)

That said, I wouldn't want to limit others based on my opinion. I would respect their rights, and hope they respect mine.

Unless someone is doing something obviously unsafe, then I probably wouldn't bother them too much. I may ask if they could do something different; sometimes people don't realize they are causing issues.

I guess thats kind of a middle ground position.

Tongue-in-cheek, my good friend. We must be sensitive to it to ensure maximum fun

Thanks Zzz,

Until I saw your post my tongue almost slipped out of my cheek.

DaveID wrote:

TangoFox wrote: I do believe everyone should try to be as courteous as possible to our fellow pilots and others, but Dave was calling people out as being inconsiderate when he had no way of knowing what was happening.

It's true - I didn't know what their intent was. Just like it doesn't matter if my intent was to drunk drive. "But officer, I didn't intent to rob that bank!". That's not my beef. My point is there is no reasonable reason to do this. And again, for the one-hundredth time, it's not about the time of day, although that was just egregious. I would equally object if this was at 1 o'clock in the afternoon!

TangoFox wrote:It sounds like he ran right over to the forest service guys and started pointing fingers.

This is merely conjecture and for the record, is not the case.

TangoFox wrote:Also the other thing that made me suspect a troll is the whole thing about 5-6 Huskies making a formation Landing and takeoff. That would be a pretty good trick on that strip

It was a pretty quick in-and-out, yes. But that didn't make it any less like a band of roving ATVers. Which again, nothing against ATVs: this is just not the place for them.

Quickdraw1 wrote:All good points made by all parties! No one should stay up til 3:00am carrying on or do touch and go at 7:00am. Just remember the “Golden Rules”.

Thumbs up!

Quickdraw1 wrote:People hike, fish, bike, mountain climb, watch sports, white water raft my family flys. It does not matter if it is in Ohio, Pennsylvania, WV, Florida, Nebraska, California, NM, Alaska or Yukon Territory we airport hop and see different places and check out cool strips. That is what we do and have done all my life. So if you think I am going to travel to Idaho, Utah, Colorado or Montana to do stuff other than fly well can’t help you there. Yes we are going to hit every strip we can while we are in Idaho for the 180/185 fly in the next few weeks. I did not fly that far not to go exploring! We are there to fly and everything else is secondary.

Sigh.... Thumbs down.

I'm realizing that I'm not going to win over some of you, but I don't have to worry about that. I will have to be okay with the fact that this message is getting out to lots and lots of people that aren't commenting and that are considering backcountry adventures this summer. This is not a message of "don't come to Idaho," or "don't takeoff early," even. It's a plea for polite, courteous, reasonable use, a recognition that there are other wilderness users - most of whom would love nothing more than to chop us off at the knees - and the suggestion that when you plan your trips, that you are aware of where you are going and what is appropriate when you get there.

And, no, I don't get to set the rules! The rules and intent are right there in the preamble of the Wilderness Act:

there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.

Ours is a special provision. Do what you can to preserve it, please.

Hey DaveID, -100 for you pal because of your pompous and elitist attitude.
Wow so nowhere else in the US special?. If I had three weeks I would be going to Alaska and chill with Phil.

No where did I say that I was going to break the law so save the law quoting for some who is going to break it. Did I not say fly with the golden rule? All I want to do is fly around and check out different strips. What you do with your time is your time and how I spend my time legally is none of you god damn business. Nor will you dictate to me what I will do king George!

Seems to be a bunch of "don't tell me how to be while I'm in my airplane" comments going on . Seems like a lot of crusty attitude being thrown around . I'm not sure how a lot of you guys are not getting the message from the op . Sounded like a "let's all just mind our manners a bit better while out flying "If your not the person blowing tents over and doing touch and goes out in the wilderness just let it go . If all you guys pounding your chest saying I'll operate how I want, where I want, and when I want , I think the options for you to do that are going to come to an end fairly soon . Kinda a fucked up mentality to operate on