I find some of these responses to be ironically hilarious. I think the original point was eloquent, simple and right on: Have consideration of others. That is the single most important attribute you can have if you want to be a contributing part of any group. That’s all. Leader or grunt, it doesn’t matter, if you are considerate, you belong. If you are not, you are tolerated.

Everyone has an imaginary line beyond which the airplane becomes a nuisance, and chances are you have or will cross someone's line while using your airplane.

Everyone's line lies slightly beyond the limits of their own use...

Scolopax wrote:Everyone has an imaginary line beyond which the airplane becomes a nuisance, and chances are you have or will cross someone's line while using your airplane.

Everyone's line lies slightly beyond the limits of their own use...

Great post...

Scolopax wrote:Everyone has an imaginary line beyond which the airplane becomes a nuisance, and chances are you have or will cross someone's line while using your airplane.

Everyone's line lies slightly beyond the limits of their own use...

That's about the best summary I've read.

Bigrenna wrote:

Scolopax wrote:Everyone has an imaginary line beyond which the airplane becomes a nuisance, and chances are you have or will cross someone's line while using your airplane.

Everyone's line lies slightly beyond the limits of their own use...

Great post...

The only problem with this line of thinking is that... it's not correct. At least in wilderness areas where acceptable use is defined and some third party like the forest service can determine what is allowable.

Trolling trolling trolling

Dave , if you camp at an airfield you cannot be annoyed by people departing early, sorry but not agreeing on that one.
Early flying is what its recommended in the backcountry (safer, better performance and just nice smooth air).

Here is why it is relevant the question if you flew there yourself.

You would probably hate me , because at dawn (sometimes even before 6 AM ), I push my plane and depart, (usually tell people camping near my plane the night before) and yes, also make videos, which now a days seem to be evil to some people.

With respect to other people acting bad, yes respect and consideration is important so everyone can enjoy, common sense, dont start you engine with tents behind you etc.
Many times its first timers, all is new, they have traveled far, trained and equipped their planes for the backcountry , they are excited and have no clue about lots of simple things that can bother people, they just dont know, but they will learn, most pilots I have meet have been great people.

motoadve wrote:Dave , if you camp at an airfield you cannot be annoyed by people departing early, sorry but not agreeing on that one.
Early flying is what its recommended in the backcountry (safer, better performance and just nice smooth air).

Please re-read my post. I specifically stated this is not about early morning departures.

motoadve wrote:also make videos, which now a days seem to be evil to some people.

Thank you for bringing it up. Yes, frankly, I think your videos add substantially to the problem by attracting people who don't know any better. And for what? Facebook likes and selling sunglasses, I suppose.

deleted & resubmitted

A little consideration goes a long way in all places, not just in the back country. A 185 departing off glassy water at first light is music to some and a massive annoyance to others but if you back off the throttle just a smidgen once off the water all is good, its the effort made that appreciated by all !!

Be aware of the place you are in; the others enjoy the space you are in, the marks you are leaving behind and at all time be kind to thy neighbor and do onto others as you would have them do to you, PLEASE & THANK YOU

Mapleflt

Dave, I am honestly glad your here and started this discussion but please stop being an ass. This discussion needs to be had and we have a great community here that in most cases can have a polite discussion even with opposing views.

IDK why TangoFoxtrot came out swinging but I've always appreciated his posts. Maybe he hadn't had his coffee yet.

Scolopax wrote:Everyone has an imaginary line beyond which the airplane becomes a nuisance, and chances are you have or will cross someone's line while using your airplane.

Everyone's line lies slightly beyond the limits of their own use...

I think this is dead on. It's like jet-skis, everyone hates them unless they are the one riding them. We should all be considerate of other people's lines and do what we can to not be terribly annoying.

As of yet no one is breaking any rules, though the intent of wilderness areas is clearly being broken. It's only a matter of time before airplanes become such an nuisance to the other users that we will be required to get permits to enter the wilderness boundary. I have to do it in my raft and my jet boat because of the impact and the number of each type of user.

No one says to not use the strip unless you are going to stay there for X amount of time. Just be considerate of others.

DaveID wrote:

motoadve wrote:Dave , if you camp at an airfield you cannot be annoyed by people departing early, sorry but not agreeing on that one.
Early flying is what its recommended in the backcountry (safer, better performance and just nice smooth air).

Please re-read my post. I specifically stated this is not about early morning departures.

motoadve wrote:also make videos, which now a days seem to be evil to some people.

Thank you for bringing it up. Yes, frankly, I think your videos add substantially to the problem by attracting people who don't know any better. And for what? Facebook likes and selling sunglasses, I suppose.

This people who dont know any better as you say it, are younger generations, aviation needs to be spread, dont live under a rock.
Do you even fly?

Lets all play nice in the sandbox please

Mapleflt

motoadve wrote:

DaveID wrote:

motoadve wrote:Dave , if you camp at an airfield you cannot be annoyed by people departing early, sorry but not agreeing on that one.
Early flying is what its recommended in the backcountry (safer, better performance and just nice smooth air).

Please re-read my post. I specifically stated this is not about early morning departures.

motoadve wrote:also make videos, which now a days seem to be evil to some people.

Thank you for bringing it up. Yes, frankly, I think your videos add substantially to the problem by attracting people who don't know any better. And for what? Facebook likes and selling sunglasses, I suppose.

This people who dont know any better as you say it, are younger generations, aviation needs to be spread, dont live under a rock.
Do you even fly?

Lol. In this "hobby" I am the younger generation. Amazing I have to tell all you old farts to get in line.

@moto - if you think your mission is to spread the aviation gospel, then you have a responsibility to spread its ethics / etiquette. I've never seen anything in your videos that suggests you do.

@whee, I think, so far, you're the only one that's cursed. If I am an ass (oops, there I go), go ahead and ban me. Otherwise, I'm just making a point no one seems to want to hear (and for crying out loud, that point has nothing to do with early morning departures).

I'm always reluctant to weigh in on these controversial topics because people often associate my opinion with the site itself... I'm just a guy who'd rather fly airplanes and make videos than manage a community. In fact, I try to avoid people while flying now, so take my statements for what they are: opinion.

Dave, you'll have to endure conversation about you, in front of you, because you're new and apparently don't seem overly concerned with criticism nor camaraderie. Or are you actually new?

I don't think the OP is a troll, but from the IP address these are posted from, it does appear to be an alias of a user who is established here. My policy is to not allow that because people seem to think they can be a little nasty with the luxury of anonymity, which is against the spirit of this community. Sometimes, though, speaking your mind in earnest about a controversial topic can invite some nasty criticism too, and the mob can be not-so-nice.

Maybe it's just coincidence. There are only so many IP addresses. Might be the one from an FBO or favorite Starbucks.

That said, I think he has some very fair points. We're all in a very small band of a wide spectrum of both GA and public land users, and "Dave" appears to love backcountry flying too. Just because you don't agree with someone 100% doesn't make them a troll; that's often identified by extreme and ridiculous statements, of which these are not IMO.

I've been a motorhead since day one, racing dirt bikes, flying airplanes, etc. I love engines. But to be honest, I can't even stand it some days when my neighbor runs the leaf blower. I accept that my feelings on the matter are hypocritical, and there is irony in wanting peace from airplane noise when you're ready for relaxing silence after flying into the airstrip.

The airplane is not the magic carpet we have dreamt. This world is so crowded, and the internet such a comprehensive mixing pot of intel about places to go, that to expect real isolation is pretty fruitless unless you've scoped out some real off-airport zones and are tight-lipped about them. Backcountry flying is increasing in popularity, it's not going away unless it's legislated away, which is quite possible, and bound to be precipitated by pilot behavior and overvisibility.

The only thing we have left is how we behave and how considerate we can be of others forced to occupy the same space.

I have heard of protocol/decorum in Alaska where if there are campers/hunters at a remote strip, you move on to the next one. First come first serve. Maybe that's a luxury of Alaska and the plentiful backcountry there.

This issue comes up every year, or every couple years are the least:

"Strip bagging, do you love it or hate it? And why?"

https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/bagging-strips-10377
https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/idah ... -use-10274

And many more if you Google strategically. Some of these discussions make me laugh, some make me grrrr, and some make me just want to turn off the computer and go mow the lawn.

Ya nailed it Zzz, thanks

Mapleflt

Channel Islands National Park, this is what you deal with in Southern California. Not a good place if you are anti-authority.

Arriving by sailboat and anchoring offshore...We required a permit in writing from the Park Service to land our dinghy on the beach. Then it is mandatory to have a Ranger with your group at all times in certain areas. You can request a Ranger flown over from Santa Barbara in a small aircraft. Ranger departs the same day. The Ranger we met was very nice. She showed us all the pretty flowers and cactus. We didn’t see the Channel Island Mouse, which is so famous, however.

There is also a very controversial no fly zone, that is considered illegal by the flying community, a NOAA CFR. NOAA also has a armed “security” force with M16s etc. They patrol in helos with armed crew. Kind of spookey. NOAA is on a power grab.



Probably the most restrictive Park I have been to. But, it’s their call and it’s nice to keep the place clean. Am I bitter and angry? No. We pulled anchor and left, glad we had a chance to visit.

There's no way it could possibly NOT look like shipwreck reef and the Mojave boneyard without the M16 patrol. That is ridiculous.

pburns wrote:Glad I live in NY,

No airplanes (Or any mechanized vehicles) allowed in wilderness areas, so we don't have any of these pesky problems...

Pete

In that case I'm glad you live in NY too.... Keep that attitude right where it is.

That's a good summary, Zzz.

I hate the reality of this part but it's true:

Zzz wrote:The airplane is not the magic carpet we have dreamt.

And this part is just what I'm trying to point out as the risk:

Zzz wrote:Backcountry flying is increasing in popularity, it's not going away unless it's legislated away, which is quite possible, and bound to be precipitated by pilot behavior and overvisibility.

Emphasis my own.

And it's not a joke. It was such an embarrassing experience as a member of the aviation community I couldn't stand being a lurker anymore. Like I said, they're recording tail numbers, and this language is buried in these management plans:

Cabin Creek Airstrip will be managed for unrestricted public and commercial use until use levels and evaluations dictate a need to establish use limits (Cabin creek was the first one that came up in my search).

I am really kind of astonished that my points of courteous use are controversial here. Like, for instance, I have never heard someone in the backpacking community object to the Leave-no-Trace ethic; it's just part of the culture. I hope we can get there too.