I have a 1956 182 with a pretty strong stock engine and a STOL kit. I can fly it pretty slow. My plane is plenty good for Clear Creek and on some days, so am I. I did say some days.

On my place (2200 feet between the fences) I usually can get stopped in 800 ft and that is landing with just a little down grade. I have a clear approach so it is a pretty relaxed landing cus I also have 1400 feet left..

If I were to try to get into Clear Creek I would have to really be on my toes. It looks like the go around decision would have to be made at about 300 AGL.

Tim

Jomac: You ever land Sawmill Canyon? Know where I mean? NOT on any sectional. A half dozen cabins that appear somewhat funky from the air, but how often do you see "funky" log cabins with full concrete foundations and buried propane tanks? Some kind of Rod and Gun Club signage, I've yet to see anyone there, don't know what the deal is there. I mention it because it is a prime type of private strip that begs to be landed when no one is there to see it, no harm no foul.

Or how about that little strip just north of May, in that slot canyon that leads up to May Peak? That place was for sale a while back, that'd be a cool place to ride out Armageddon, dyno the entrance and have the whole uphill area to yourself! Another question mark as to who owns it and how they are with an occasional drop in.

Another one, just S. of Tincup Canyon, west side of the Star Valley when I leave Afton I fly over it and eyeball it hard, if it isn't a strip, it should be......

Some yahoo off the street camping out at Rob's PC place is one thing, and quite different from the warm and fuzzy special relationship enjoyed by us freaks who fly short mt. strips, the shorter the better. I for one would treat a unknown (and unpilot) person I found staying in my house because I NEVER lock it, much more harshly then a unknown fat tired plane pilot I found parked on my runway, who explained that he knew a guy who knew a guy who knew me and thought it'd be OK, no comparison! A little common sense and HOPEFULLY a little sense of kinship in a shared activity by a tiny percent of the general populace, and not running off the end of the runway, would seem to make incidents like this rare, and I believe they are.

James has been more the tolerant in his handling of his situation, I'm 100% with him on the followup/recovery: don't mess with, as in traumatize, the runway! What's done is done, let's wrap it up and get it outa here, but you'd be doing it the way I'd tell you to do it. Before and after pictures, time stamped, of the runway would be part of the deal.

I had a rod come loose in my C-175 coming west out of Santa Fe. I landed on the road just south of Santa Domingo Pueblo. The Governor of the Pueblo let me park the plane in his front yard while the engine was completely rebuilt and Buddy Robinson and I put it back in. He was not a pilot, just a nice guy.

The situation at Clear Crk Int'l is one of the reasons why people require prior permission to land. It isn't necessarily the landing- it's the crash, or the litter left behind, or the fresh ruts, or the neighbors who get their feathers ruffled.

A good example is Daybreak Skyranch north of Portland, Rob just posted photos of landing there. The owners are nice enough to allow people to just drop in any old time. When the old Evergreen Antique Fly-in was still going on, a bunch of us used to camp at the fly-in Friday night then fly up to Daybreak & camp Saturday. One year, some people came in that no one knew....one guy was hopping rides low over the surrounding area in his helicopter. Another genius did a series of low passes over the strip. Naturally the owners heard from their neighbors about it. They happened to come down to the strip the next morning and mentioned that, and one of these guys made a smart-ass comment about "look on the bright side- it gives your neighbors a good reason to keep in touch with you." You can guess how that went over. I was surprised that they didn't kick us all out then & there, and that a big white x didn't go out on the strip that afternoon... which would have been my reactions.

I own 10 acres out in the woods, and don't have a problem with the neighbors strolling through or local kids goofing around. But I have intercepted people trespassing, littering, pooping, whatever. One guy who said he was there "communing with nature" (you can imagine what he looked like) and didn't know it was private property (really? it's not even close to any national state or county parks or forests) protested that he wasn't hurting anything. I told him, yeah, first time everything's just fine, then its beer bottles hamburger wrappers & Starbucks cups all over the place.

[quote="hotrod180"]The situation at Clear Crk Int'l is one of the reasons why people require prior permission to land.

"Permission" is the key word. A friend of mine who has a private strip in California has educated me on the Recreational Use Statute in that state:

http://home.surewest.net/sacppg/California%20Recreational%20Use%20Statute%20846.htm

It protects landowners from liability if they only "permit" folks to use their land. The statute was recently amended to include aviation.

An important exception is near the bottom of the statute.

"This section does not limit the liability which otherwise exists (a) for willful or malicious failure to guard or warn against a dangerous condition, use, structure or activity; or (b) for injury suffered in any case where permission to enter for the above purpose was granted for a consideration other than the consideration, if any, paid to said landowner by the state, or where consideration has been received from others for the same purpose; or (c) to any persons who are expressly invited rather than merely permitted to come upon the premises by the landowner.

My bolding to highlight the relevant sentence.

So, my friend's policy is that you are never "invited" to land there. He asks friends to acknowledge they've read the RUS statute and understand that they are never "invited" to land there, just that you have permission. As a further deterrent to random use by strangers, he's placed a large white "X" at the threshold.

You might want to check your state's statutes for a similar law.

Pierre

I think more than half the population is reasonable. But, less than half of us vote. Do you think politicians, the majority of whom are lawyers, care what we think is reasonable? Liability is a big industry in this country; and not just for insurance companies. It's not constitutional, but yes, through our pocketbook we are forced to buy insurance, whatever the price. Oh! If you have a policy you like, you can keep it. Some politicians don't know much about insurance.

The whole liability bugaboo seems to be people looking to get rich off their own foolish mistakes, and the ambulance-chasing lawyers that help them. Or survivors of someone who killed themselves doing something dumb, looking for vengeance because "dad was a great pilot, it couldn't have been his fault". Or both.

hotrod180 wrote:The whole liability bugaboo seems to be people looking to get rich off their own foolish mistakes, and the ambulance-chasing lawyers that help them. Or survivors of someone who killed themselves doing something dumb, looking for vengeance because "dad was a great pilot, it couldn't have been his fault". Or both.

Yep. Zackly. As my buddy with the airstrip put it:

"I know you would not come after me, but if you are dead and the lawyers for your kids or ex get involved.... I still won't be fully insulated but it will help."

On top of that, it's not always black and white. So say you have permission to land on someone's property and they say the runway is in good shape but then they dig a ditch across it to put in a water line or conduit, don't get around to filling it back in and the grass grows enough to hide it. You come in, land and snap your main gear on the roll out. You file a claim with your insurance company to help you pay for repairs. Your insurance company will ask some questions and they will likely want to subrogate against the property owner's insurance company. The insurance company lawyers will hash it out and you and your buddy may have little to say about which company eventually pays.

Kinda reminds me of the time a lawyer friend of mine (sheesh, kinda creepy, but yeah he's a good guy and one of the few lawyers I call a friend!) called me to tell me that he and a very good mutual friend of ours were splitting firewood together at his place with a rented hydraulic splitter. The friend got his finger between a log and the wedge and got it crushed and cut off. He wasn't going to do anything about it, so the lawyer calls me and gives me the name of a good plaintiff's attorney to pass along so the friend can get something out of it to pay the bills and a little something for his pain, suffering, and loss of the finger. (He worked sheet metal so it probably did affect his livelihood). The lawyer was very matter of fact about it, saying that's how the system works and his insurance company will have to pay him something. He got some money. No hard feelings. They're still buddies.

I found that stunning at the time. A lawyer helping a friend hire a lawyer to sue him!

Pierre

[

here ya go

That's a really nice spot....

Pierre_R wrote:
On top of that, it's not always black and white. So say you have permission to land on someone's property and they say the runway is in good shape but then they dig a ditch across it to put in a water line or conduit, don't get around to filling it back in and the grass grows enough to hide it. You come in, land and snap your main gear on the roll out. You file a claim with your insurance company to help you pay for repairs. Your insurance company will ask some questions and they will likely want to subrogate against the property owner's insurance company. The insurance company lawyers will hash it out and you and your buddy may have little to say about which company eventually pays.

Pierre

If the state where the airstrip is has the RUS that includes aviation then the airstrip owner would not be liable. As a guest, invited or not, you assume all liability. The only way the landowner could be held liable is if it was proven that he dug the ditch across the runway specifically to harm you. That is an incredibly high bar for the plaintiffs to clear.

scottf wrote:here ya go

That explains a lot, including why there's pr needs. It may have been providential that he ran out of room coming IN.

I loved that video! Looked like a great day!

courier...ya i know of all those strips...cant really say ive landed em or not.....but they are all very cool ones....one of my absolute all time faves is castle creek...u know the one...what a beauty...have been there several times..invited of course....!

Shoot people wreck 182 and super Cubs at 10000 ft runways. Sometimes mistakes happen. I hope no one posts pictures of mine if it happens.
Seems like the guy had a shitty time already. Throw him bone and help they guy get his plane out of there. Maybe he should have made a bloody mess and at least maybe the ntsb would have hauled it away for you and you wouldn't have anything to complain about.

PAMR MX wrote:Shoot people wreck 182 and super Cubs at 10000 ft runways. Sometimes mistakes happen. I hope no one posts pictures of mine if it happens.
Seems like the guy had a shitty time already. Throw him bone and help they guy get his plane out of there. Maybe he should have made a bloody mess and at least maybe the ntsb would have hauled it away for you and you wouldn't have anything to complain about.

PAMR

If someone crashed their car into your property without insurance and caused damage would you be so open minded? I think you might complain a little. The plan is to remove the wreck next Friday. I have to be there to help and protect my property. Obviously I didn't have anything else to do, like work my second job flying in Montana. Pictures and a write up in the local news paper will be out next Thursday too. Again bad "public relations", not my idea.

Bottom line sh#t happens, but I didn't give permission or invite this guy to land at my place. I also think landing at these types of places without insurance is irresponsible. The local Sheriff is now involved due to complaints from my neighbors. The wreck can be clearly seen from the County road. By the way the NTSB doesn't move airplanes either.

James




James

james, I don't know how far they need to move it to get it out. when we move mobile homes in soft ground we cut 4x8 3/4 plywood and plank our way out. a lot of work but no ruts in the sod. good luck to you and the owner.
46tcrft

Heck, a good sawzall would take care of that in short order. I know of at least one Citation that went that route......made it into bite sizes for the R44 helicopter lift outta there.

MTV

Wow. this thing has turned into a major incident!

First of all, I don't care who you are if you build an airstrip someone will land on it without permission!
Guaranteed!

Sure the guy shouldn't have been screwing around on the strip without prior permission!
If he hadn't of blew the landing in all likelihood no one would have known about it at all!

That being said.
There is an airplane stuck at the end of the runway and it has been there for days.

If it's too muddy then wait a bit for the ground to dry.

If airplanes aren't causing ruts on the strip and ATV's aren't causing ruts. then go down and hook onto the airplane with a wheeler and pull it back up toward the gate or somewhere else that is better than where it is.

If a rut is made then shovel a little dirt back in.

Bottom line.
It's a runway.... things like this will happen.
Hell this will happen at 10,000 foot long paved runways!

The whole process could have been done by now.

Or the way it's going you will spend waaaay more time interviewing prospective mechanics, crane operators, tow truck operators, going to court and trying to get everyone and their grandma named insured etc etc etc.