We can do a poll thread on when will be the best time to drive down to the chicken strip to obseve the severe flood damage first hand. I can go the second or third weekend. Should be nice weather. I will fix the crepes for breakfast.

Tim

Perhaps you made my point with out knowing it concerning liability,” They can be sued by alphabet groups” perhaps we could be one of them; Lawyers can always find angles that’s what they do. I for one am tired of losing liberties. We as pilots need to get organized push back and take a stand, if we don’t we will be standing in a line with our shoes off, just like ever one else.

Wrote an email to my local congressman, joined the RAF, time to quit beating the chest and go. Write you reps.

How about just setting a date, posting it here for a while, maybe 2-3 weeks, then showing up in force and just fixing the runway. We've got the addresses, we could send notice to everyone, then do it, or, just do it. There's strength in numbers. We can document any resistance we get, document the damage the little snake or lizard or whatever he is, did to the runway, and document our repairs. Looked to me, on the photos like a Cub type w/ fat tires could land that strip with no problem, or just all drive in, whatever works.. Count me in for a body an a rake either way.

I think Lizard Lee is getting kicked around too much on this forum. There are pireps out there describing water damage to the runway earlier in the summer, it did need some repair. And a pirep on the Saline Preservation Assoc. forum from last week says Lee did a good job smoothing the ruts, but "dragging uncovered lots of laser sharp rocks so the strip is not land-able":
http://forum.salinepreservation.org/pos ... ip-5435069

I haven't been to the springs in years, but it's a unique and beautiful place, so I can understand people's frustration with waiting for the bureaucracy to make a decision. I just don't understand all the criticism of a man who tried to fix the strip, and who put up good visible warning X's when he felt it wasn't safe yet. Yeah, it's a bit of a cluster**** right now, but calling Lee names isn't going to help, it's just going to make the BCP group look bad.

I read the saline preservation forum. Did not view the pics cus am not a member. If lee is not at fault then I offer my depest apologies. I agree with that forum that a work party is in order. I am in for the third weekend of November. I can drive from Northern Kalifornia if necessary but would rather fly down to Lone Pine and then drive in with sombody else. Sounds like it would be a bunch of fun if we had 10 to 15 folks hoopin it up. Probably set up a good BBQ with lots of story tellin to go arround.

Tim

In dealing with these types of issues around the country, when explaining the purpose of an airstrip to a non-flier, we have found it successful to equate the airstrip to any other "trailhead" be it a horse corral, vehicle parking area or bike rack.

The airstrip is just our way of arriving and accessing the recreational facilities for many of the same activities as those that come by truck or car with anything from bike racks to trailers in tow. The major difference is that we have no driven wheels, hooves or treads that can disturb the terrain. In fact, the only trace we leave is on departure - a short sound signature that, based upon scientific research, does not disturb the wildlife.

Of all the vehicular ways to get to the trailhead, ours may have the least impact.

qmdv wrote:I read the saline preservation forum. Did not view the pics cus am not a member. If lee is not at fault then I offer my depest apologies. I agree with that forum that a work party is in order. I am in for the third weekend of November. I can drive from Northern Kalifornia if necessary but would rather fly down to Lone Pine and then drive in with sombody else. Sounds like it would be a bunch of fun if we had 10 to 15 folks hoopin it up. Probably set up a good BBQ with lots of story tellin to go arround.

Tim

Tim, I believe it was mentioned to be the SECOND weekend of Nov. When that time get's closer and we know what the plan is, I can probably pick you up and maybe one more person at Lone Pine. I still would like to help out, too. If most pilots want to fly into Lone Pine and be picked up, I can arrange to barrow a full size 7 pass. passenger van we have at our race shop. I can also arrange to barrow a trailer to haul up some tools and supplies.

nutria rat wrote:I think Lizard Lee is getting kicked around too much on this forum. There are pireps out there describing water damage to the runway earlier in the summer, it did need some repair. And a pirep on the Saline Preservation Assoc. forum from last week says Lee did a good job smoothing the ruts, but "dragging uncovered lots of laser sharp rocks so the strip is not land-able":
http://forum.salinepreservation.org/pos ... ip-5435069

I haven't been to the springs in years, but it's a unique and beautiful place, so I can understand people's frustration with waiting for the bureaucracy to make a decision. I just don't understand all the criticism of a man who tried to fix the strip, and who put up good visible warning X's when he felt it wasn't safe yet. Yeah, it's a bit of a cluster**** right now, but calling Lee names isn't going to help, it's just going to make the BCP group look bad.

I'm not sure if I agree with you just yet. But, just by what I'm reading on this forum, I'm having a hard time believing Mr Lee is an aviation friendly and airstrip friendly kind of guy or even knows what the heck he is doing. Also from what I read is that I believe Mr Lee may not be the right person to repair and maintain an airstrip.

OK...... common sense tells me that if a person is dragging an airstrip that is what (OK, I don't know the dimensions ), so let's say for an example 2000'x30'. After just one pass (or not even the first 100'), wouldn't you look at the progress and see that "Oh shit, I'm pulling up these huge rocks , I better stop here and figure out a plan B " . But no, from what I have read and seen pictures, Mr Lee continued to drag the entire airstrip making it even worse. So, what has Mr Lee been doing since he pretty much destroyed the airstrip? NOTHING!! (from what I understand). Has Mr Lee tried to fix the airstrip that he destroyed? NO!.......... And god I hope not!!

I can kind of read into people pretty good and can figure out their deal fairly quickly. So if and when I might meet this Mr Lee and he truly is a aviation friendly guy and really didn't mean to do the damage he did, then I'll give him a big fat apology and a huge hug!!

58Skylane wrote:
I can kind of read into people pretty good and can figure out their deal fairly quickly. So if and when I might meet this Mr Lee and he truly is a aviation friendly guy and really didn't mean to do the damage he did, then I'll give him a big fat apology and a huge hug!!

Fat and Huge are your words. But I agree with what you said above. If lee is here to help then how can I get a hold of him to see what he needs in the way of help.

Tim

GREAT NEWS

I just talked with Brent Pennington (8:34AM Calif. Time) and he has gotten the “OK” to allow RAF people to go in and cleanup the strip. He and Sara were on this most of yesterday and late yesterday afternoon they got verbal approval from legal to allow repairs while the new paperwork is being processed. Brent will be calling John McKenna, Pres. of RAF, and John Kounis RAFs California Liaison this morning and telling them it’s OK to repair the strip at any time they wish. So now all we need is some one to take lead and set a date to do the repairs.

Rick

701driver wrote:GREAT NEWS

I just talked with Brent Pennington (8:34AM Calif. Time) and he has gotten the “OK” to allow RAF people to go in and cleanup the strip. He and Sara were on this most of yesterday and late yesterday afternoon they got verbal approval from legal to allow repairs while the new paperwork is being processed. Brent will be calling John McKenna, Pres. of RAF, and John Kounis RAFs California Liaison this morning and telling them it’s OK to repair the strip at any time they wish. So now all we need is some one to take lead and set a date to do the repairs.

Rick

Thanks for all the efforts by you, Brent and Sara and of course all the others involved in this matter!! I'm sure I'll make it into C.S. someday with my plane. But very happy that my fellow aviators will have continued use of Chicken Strip. Thanks again!

qmdv wrote:We can do a poll thread on when will be the best time to drive down to the chicken strip to obseve the severe flood damage first hand. I can go the second or third weekend. Should be nice weather. I will fix the crepes for breakfast.

Tim

I think I need to reiterate the point that there is no flood damage to observe. What can be observed is that the areas adacent to the runway are undamaged. It seems that this flood water that did the damage left no tracks. Without removing the rocks (and the Suzuki and drag) no compaction can be done.
A asked Brent if he could get back to me when the Suzuki and drag were removed and I have heard nothing so far. I fully expect to hear nothing.

Everyone should keep in mind that the Park Services objective in this process is to go into the Management Plan development process with the airstrip closed. If we allow them to do that they will never allow it to open. I think it must be opened before the process starts. If we can get it open than it will be much more of a problem for them to close it again.

The "severe flood damage story" was just a handy ploy to get it closed. Now they can delay delay delay until they start the Long Term Management Plan.

Brent made a serious faux pas when we spoke yesterday. He said their patrol rangers have been going to Saline twice a week for months. I didn't know that... I asked why none of these people told him the strip was repaired. That would have allowed him to give people accurate info.

He also said the Suzuki on the runway is not a Park Service vehicle.

701driver wrote:GREAT NEWS

I just talked with Brent Pennington (8:34AM Calif. Time) and he has gotten the “OK” to allow RAF people to go in and cleanup the strip. He and Sara were on this most of yesterday and late yesterday afternoon they got verbal approval from legal to allow repairs while the new paperwork is being processed. Brent will be calling John McKenna, Pres. of RAF, and John Kounis RAFs California Liaison this morning and telling them it’s OK to repair the strip at any time they wish. So now all we need is some one to take lead and set a date to do the repairs.

Rick

Desert Rat wrote:

qmdv wrote:We can do a poll thread on when will be the best time to drive down to the chicken strip to obseve the severe flood damage first hand. I can go the second or third weekend. Should be nice weather. I will fix the crepes for breakfast.

Tim

I think I need to reiterate the point that there is no flood damage to observe. What can be observed is that the areas adacent to the runway are undamaged. It seems that this flood water that did the damage left no tracks. Without removing the rocks (and the Suzuki and drag) no compaction can be done.
A asked Brent if he could get back to me when the Suzuki and drag were removed and I have heard nothing so far. I fully expect to hear nothing.

Everyone should keep in mind that the Park Services objective in this process is to go into the Management Plan development process with the airstrip closed. If we allow them to do that they will never allow it to open. I think it must be opened before the process starts. If we can get it open than it will be much more of a problem for them to close it again.

The "severe flood damage story" was just a handy ploy to get it closed. Now they can delay delay delay until they start the Long Term Management Plan.

Brent made a serious faux pas when we spoke yesterday. He said their patrol rangers have been going to Saline twice a week for months. I didn't know that... I asked why none of these people told him the strip was repaired. That would have allowed him to give people accurate info.

He also said the Suzuki on the runway is not a Park Service vehicle.

Am I confused or what?? What's the real skinny here???? It seems like we're getting two completely different stories here

Desert Rat wrote:

qmdv wrote:We can do a poll thread on when will be the best time to drive down to the chicken strip to obseve the severe flood damage first hand. I can go the second or third weekend. Should be nice weather. I will fix the crepes for breakfast.

Tim

I think I need to reiterate the point that there is no flood damage to observe. What can be observed is that the areas adacent to the runway are undamaged. It seems that this flood water that did the damage left no tracks. Without removing the rocks (and the Suzuki and drag) no compaction can be done.
A asked Brent if he could get back to me when the Suzuki and drag were removed and I have heard nothing so far. I fully expect to hear nothing.

Everyone should keep in mind that the Park Services objective in this process is to go into the Management Plan development process with the airstrip closed. If we allow them to do that they will never allow it to open. I think it must be opened before the process starts. If we can get it open than it will be much more of a problem for them to close it again.

The "severe flood damage story" was just a handy ploy to get it closed. Now they can delay delay delay until they start the Long Term Management Plan.

Brent made a serious faux pas when we spoke yesterday. He said their patrol rangers have been going to Saline twice a week for months. I didn't know that... I asked why none of these people told him the strip was repaired. That would have allowed him to give people accurate info.

He also said the Suzuki on the runway is not a Park Service vehicle.

I thought the pix reflected alot of rocks that need to be moved to the SIDE of the runway?

Coyote Ugly wrote:How about just setting a date, posting it here for a while, maybe 2-3 weeks, then showing up in force and just fixing the runway. We've got the addresses, we could send notice to everyone, then do it, or, just do it. There's strength in numbers. We can document any resistance we get, document the damage the little snake or lizard or whatever he is, did to the runway, and document our repairs. Looked to me, on the photos like a Cub type w/ fat tires could land that strip with no problem, or just all drive in, whatever works.. Count me in for a body an a rake either way.

A "show of force" is probably a good idea. I asked Brent what he would do if someone just started removing the rocks. He didn't have an answer.

No Cub with any size tires could land on the strip now but... You wouldn't need to. You could use the area parallel to and just West of the strip. I think it would be a bit soft for 8.50's but anything bigger should be fine. The other airstrip by the springs is still available. The Park Service put rocks at the end of it years ago but they were removed. I would need to walk over there to be sure.

The key is to get that Suzuki and drag off of the strip...

Desert Rat wrote:

Coyote Ugly wrote:How about just setting a date, posting it here for a while, maybe 2-3 weeks, then showing up in force and just fixing the runway. We've got the addresses, we could send notice to everyone, then do it, or, just do it. There's strength in numbers. We can document any resistance we get, document the damage the little snake or lizard or whatever he is, did to the runway, and document our repairs. Looked to me, on the photos like a Cub type w/ fat tires could land that strip with no problem, or just all drive in, whatever works.. Count me in for a body an a rake either way.

A "show of force" is probably a good idea. I asked Brent what he would do if someone just started removing the rocks. He didn't have an answer.

No Cub with any size tires could land on the strip now but... You wouldn't need to. You could use the area parallel to and just West of the strip. I think it would be a bit soft for 8.50's but anything bigger should be fine. The other airstrip by the springs is still available. The Park Service put rocks at the end of it years ago but they were removed. I would need to walk over there to be sure.

The key is to get that Suzuki and drag off of the strip...

If that area is Dodge Country then the Suzuki will be no match

Tim

So...

I'm seeing a bit of hot air, pot stirring, and chest thumping here, as well as what appears to be the beginning of a train wreck for the Chicken Strip.

Let me say that as the number-one user of the Chicken Strip for the past four years, I'm more frustrated and frankly scared of what's not happening (the strip being opened) than anyone. My wife and I have spent an average of seven weeks a year camping on that strip, and we've done so every month of the year. It's frankly the single most redeeming aspect of living in CA, and loosing this strip would be pretty devastating for us.

I'll also say that I've gotten some pretty different answers to the same questions depending on who I ask, or when I ask. It's frustrating as hell. I rode my motorcycle into the strip in August and talked to Lee and saw what the strip looked like. By that time he had already drug a smoothing bar across the water damage and the strip was pretty close to being usable. In fact, if the rocks and smoothing bar were removed, it would be usable to aircraft set up for really soft ground. On the advice of the RAF I've not gone in and done the work myself, though I'm getting an ulcer worrying about it. One really, really important point about working with government is that no matter how bad a situation is, it's really easy to make it worse.

First off, the negative attitude towards Lee is not warranted. One of the primary reasons the hot springs and subsequently the Chicken Strip didn't get reverted back to a prehistoric condition over a decade ago was because Lee agreed to stay at the springs full time as a non-paid park service volunteer. His presence there as a caretaker has been a huge part of allowing the springs to remain as they are. He's lived out there year-round for eleven years without pay. No doubt his reasons for doing so are his own, but without someone there around the clock I guarantee the springs would have been closed long ago. And there aren't exactly a lot of people lining up to take over the job... Getting in a pissing contest with Lee is NOT going to help. Saying that you couldn't get in a confrontation with Lee because you were unarmed is just asinine. Lee's a NP volunteer, which gives him the same standing as an NP employee in the eyes of the administration. Threaten him and you'll incur the full wrath of the NP law enforcement, which I've seen first hand can arrive at the strip via helicopter amazingly quickly. In case it's not obvious, when the cops have to come via helicopter, someone's going to jail. Period.

I don't speak for Lee, but I know for a fact that he's not anti-aviation. He has a very vested interest in keeping the Chicken Strip open, as some of his primary living needs are fulfilled via the strip, and if the strip closes he'll loose those. Anyone who thinks that Lee took it upon himself to close the strip for no reason is simply wrong. He's suffered from the strip being closed more than anyone. Anyone who doesn't believe that there was water damage to the strip hasn't been to the Saline Valley for a while. The flash flooding that went through there was really, really impressive. The Chicken Strip has washed out before, and it washed out again.

Lee also has a vested interest in keeping the Strip safe. A fair amount of bozos try to use the strip, and when they bend their airplanes guess who they run to for help? How fun do you think it is for Lee to drive the POS Samari five hours to Lone Pine because someone just bent their landing gear? Or worse yet, how about being the only person on scene when a plane full of people gets injured or killed because they couldn't see the water ruts and tried to land? Or since we're bringing up lawyers, how about the liability of being the caretaker and not closing the strip even though he knows it's unsafe? Sometimes I wonder how much thought people put into their posts...

While on the subject of posts, I'd like to know why Desert Rat posted a photo of the empty pilot registration can? It looks to me like he's just trying to fan the flames by showing that the pilot log has been removed, when that's simply not the case. The old registration can that he posted a photo of rusted out, so a new can was put in last year. It's clearly visible in another of his photos, and the registration log is still in it. What's the point of that???

Turning up the pressure on the Park Service to get the strip open is, in my opinion, a good thing to do, if it's done right. And a work party to repair the strip is a great idea IF THE PARK SIGNS OFF ON IT. Per federal regulations, nobody is allowed to do work in the park unless they are a official park volunteer. That's as simple as filling out a form, but if you're not a volunteer you're not allowed to "work" in the park. It's a liability issue, and the NP is hyper-sensitive to it.

If a bunch of people show up and take it upon themselves to work on the strip without the approval of the chief ranger, the Chicken Strip is doomed. In the interest of reducing liability the NP will trench it or put boulders on it and that will be that. Moving a NP vehicle without permission or landing off-field in a designated wilderness area? Why not just crash your plane into the NP administration building...the results for aviation will be the same.

It's high time that the Chicken Strip got reopened, but don't let a couple hot-heads or some internet-drama turn a bad situation worse. Write letters, make phone calls, fill out the Volunteer In Park paperwork. Drown them with eagerness and cooperation and don't give them any reason not to let us reopen it. Do it right.

Hammer: Your timing was impeccable...

It appears that the "hot heads" got it done.

From Brent Pennington.

Hello George,

I hope I have some good news for you. Got word from the DOI Solicitor's
office last night that we could proceed under the terms of the original
agreement with Recreational Aviation Foundation (RAF). I just spoke with
RAF President John McKenna and they will be putting together a work detail
to open the strip just as soon as they can get a work detail together.
That will take care of the short term issue on re-opening the strip. Long
term future, as I have said before will be decided by the planning process.
If you have any questions please feel free to give me a call. Take care.

The empty can in my pix is the one that says "pilot log" on the lid. Sorry if pictures of empty cans offend you.

The best way to say "thank you" to the RAF on their great work.

http://theraf.org/civicrm/contribute/tr ... set=1&id=2