I guess I'll be the guy that disagrees on the 170 being more fun to fly. Sure they are nimble, but my '62 180 was pretty nimble as well, and the power made it a very fun.
Size wise, the fuselages are the same size/width, so the 180s are heavier with a bigger engine, but not bigger per se.

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For those advocating 180s, be advised that there are a LOT of really well “used” 180s for sale. If You find a nice one (an honestly nice one) for less than $100 K these days, jump on it.

Early 180s are generally lighter, sorta. That said, I’ve seen a lot of early 180s that were really porkers. And, their gross weights are low. As to what’s considered “early”, many folks contend that they started getting more “trucklike” after the H model (late 60s), though others argue anything after about 1960 is “late model” in this context.

The H has always been my favorite, with the G a close second. Big tanks were available, center stack radios were std. Those “really early” 180s, with the small fuel tanks, limit your range some, especially if you intend to bump up the power.

I looked at a lot of 180s over the last year or two, and believe me, there’s a lot of junk out there.

For perspective, I know of a couple guys who converted a 170B with an O-360, did some nice mods, paint, interior, etc. this was a couple years ago. They did most of the work themselves. They said they were north of $125 when done.

MTV

Keep looking. I bought my 1953 170B with 180 hp , CS prop, 180 gear and big wheels for about 40K three years ago. It has over 1000 hours left on engine. My last plane was a DH Beaver so I was used to buying gas but a 180 still used to much for flying around with the window open waving to neighbours.
At the same time there was a 180 for 55k with floats and hyd wheel skis and only 220 hrs on engine. Love the 170, have skis for winter and can land in most fields with wheels. Works for me but your mission is slightly different.

mtv wrote:For those advocating 180s, be advised that there are a LOT of really well “used” 180s for sale. If You find a nice one (an honestly nice one) for less than $100 K these days, jump on it.

Early 180s are generally lighter, sorta. That said, I’ve seen a lot of early 180s that were really porkers. And, their gross weights are low. As to what’s considered “early”, many folks contend that they started getting more “trucklike” after the H model (late 60s), though others argue anything after about 1960 is “late model” in this context.

The H has always been my favorite, with the G a close second. Big tanks were available, center stack radios were std. Those “really early” 180s, with the small fuel tanks, limit your range some, especially if you intend to bump up the power.

I looked at a lot of 180s over the last year or two, and believe me, there’s a lot of junk out there.

For perspective, I know of a couple guys who converted a 170B with an O-360, did some nice mods, paint, interior, etc. this was a couple years ago. They did most of the work themselves. They said they were north of $125 when done.

MTV

I agree 100%. This has been my experience as well.

For your stated mission it sounds like a 180hp 170B will work really well for you.

Here's a biased opinion but with real world numbers to consider
I've got a decent amount of stock 170B hours and have put some 180hp 170B hours in. I fly with and to the same places as many friends that have 180s and 180hp 170s. The 180hp 170 will equal the 180 in landing and takeoff every time with equal weight and fuel per hour* being carried.

I've flown cross country trips at 135mph side by side with my buddy in his 180 burning 13gph and I'm burning 9gph in the 170. And we both are carrying roughly the same load.

Some numbers:
180B - 13gph w/55gal usable = 4.23hrs
170B - 9gph w/37gal usable = 4.11hrs

Most early 180s weigh around 1650 lbs w/2650 gross = 1000 useful - full fuel 330lbs = 670 payload
170B w/180hp weighs about 1350 lbs w/2200 gross = 850 useful - full fuel 222lbs = 628 payload
42lb difference in real payload if you factor in the extra fuel weight
But you won't be using all that payload with your stated light loads. With you and fuel, you'll almost be at the empty weight of a 180.

Pricewise I agree with Hammer. I've got a buddy that bought a freshly rebuilt/restored 170B w/180hp 5 years ago for $75k with a 0 time engine and all the mods you have listed as wanting except for the avionics. STOL kit, float kit, LR fuel, 80" CS Hartzell.
Another buddy I was helping shop got a 170B w/180hp last year for $40k with the 76" CS Hartzell and fairly stock. It cruises fast with the stock wing. He looked at two other 180hp 170s for $37.5k and $50k. The one he picked was the cleanest of them.

I've always heard from 180 owners who were previous 170 owners that the pleasure of flying was much greater with the 170.
Better forward visibility
Lighter on the controls
Easier ground handling
Better ski plane
Lower cost of ownership
Lower fuel burn

Buy one that's converted and then upgrade from there.

Not like I'm biased towards 170s or anything

I’m in a similar boat the the OP, except I don’t have two airplanes already.

My mission is flying for fun. Cross country and IFR is part of the fun for me. The airport I want to be based at is grass, and not plowed in the winter. A converted 170 seems ideal for me, but by time I update the typical 60’s era avionics, buy wheel skis, etc, the cost gets hard to justify...

dogone wrote:Keep looking. I bought my 1953 170B with 180 hp , CS prop, 180 gear and big wheels for about 40K three years ago. It has over 1000 hours left on engine. My last plane was a DH Beaver so I was used to buying gas but a 180 still used to much for flying around with the window open waving to neighbours.
At the same time there was a 180 for 55k with floats and hyd wheel skis and only 220 hrs on engine. Love the 170, have skis for winter and can land in most fields with wheels. Works for me but your mission is slightly different.

You sir, cut a fat hog..... Try to find one for that price these days. I sold mine five years ago for more than that, with a fairly high time engine, though a good airplane.

But, they're where you find em. Good on you.

MTV

Alaskan Tin Can wrote:Some numbers:
180B - 13gph w/55gal usable = 4.23hrs
170B - 9gph w/37gal usable = 4.11hrs

Most early 180s weigh around 1650 lbs w/2650 gross = 1000 useful - full fuel 330lbs = 670 payload
170B w/180hp weighs about 1350 lbs w/2200 gross = 850 useful - full fuel 222lbs = 628 payload

My experience was a bit different. Yes I could burn more if I wanted, but I flew 500hrs in one year behind my O-470 and the cruise burn was 11. I often slowed it way down to 170 speeds (110mph) and burned 8.5.

I have weighed a couple early 180's and they were in the 1550 range. I have weighed several 170s, and they all were 1450-1500. My 170B trainer project will be just about 1300 on bushwheels, but that is taking a TON of elbow grease and $$$ grease. We just weighed a 175 Bolen converted TW and that was 1500lbs. I also weighed a 172 Bolen TW and that was 1600lbs. My 180H weighs 1800 (3190 GW)

i have owned 3 170Bs and really love em... but the Wagon is much more fun to fly.

These two are just about the perfect combination for me.

The 170B is a joy to fly. The 182D not so much...it’s nothing special but it hauls the mail and still looks pretty good with the fastback fuselage and windows like the 185. Ive felt the same about a few 180’s and 185’s I’ve flown.

And I know it’s dorky, but that tricycle gear is awfully convenient when the wind starts howling.

On a 500 mile flight, they both burn about the same gas with the 182D arriving much sooner than the 170B.

The 170B was bought 25 years ago. The 182D was bought for $6k and was not airworthy.

Luckily I have a few A&P/IA’s in the family and with another $20k and a bunch of sweat equity invested in it, the 182D is quite a nice airplane now.

*bigrenna: I want to point out that these pics are old...and I’ve installed the original wheel pants on the 182! I know how much you love those things. LOL! (sarcasm alert)

https://youtu.be/lITCL4N0GmQ

[quote="Alaskan Tin Can"]For your stated mission it sounds like a 180hp 170B will work really well for you.

Here's a biased opinion but with real world numbers to consider
I've got a decent amount of stock 170B hours and have put some 180hp 170B hours in. I fly with and to the same places as many friends that have 180s and 180hp 170s. The 180hp 170 will equal the 180 in landing and takeoff every time with equal weight and fuel per hour* being carried.

I've flown cross country trips at 135mph side by side with my buddy in his 180 burning 13gph and I'm burning 9gph in the 170. And we both are carrying roughly the same load.

Some numbers:
180B - 13gph w/55gal usable = 4.23hrs
170B - 9gph w/37gal usable = 4.11hrs

Most early 180s weigh around 1650 lbs w/2650 gross = 1000 useful - full fuel 330lbs = 670 payload
170B w/180hp weighs about 1350 lbs w/2200 gross = 850 useful - full fuel 222lbs = 628 payload
42lb difference in real payload if you factor in the extra fuel weight
But you won't be using all that payload with your stated light loads. With you and fuel, you'll almost be at the empty weight of a 180.

Pricewise I agree with Hammer. I've got a buddy that bought a freshly rebuilt/restored 170B w/180hp 5 years ago for $75k with a 0 time engine and all the mods you have listed as wanting except for the avionics. STOL kit, float kit, LR fuel, 80" CS Hartzell.
Another buddy I was helping shop got a 170B w/180hp last year for $40k with the 76" CS Hartzell and fairly stock. It cruises fast with the stock wing. He looked at two other 180hp 170s for $37.5k and $50k. The one he picked was the cleanest of them.

I've always heard from 180 owners who were previous 170 owners that the pleasure of flying was much greater with the 170.
Better forward visibility
Lighter on the controls
Easier ground handling
Better ski plane
Lower cost of ownership
Lower fuel burn

Buy one that's converted and then upgrade from there.

Not like I'm biased towards 170s or anything [/quote

A 180 should go a lot faster than 135 on 13gph.

a3holerman wrote:

Alaskan Tin Can wrote:
Pricewise I agree with Hammer. I've got a buddy that bought a freshly rebuilt/restored 170B w/180hp 5 years ago for $75k with a 0 time engine and all the mods you have listed as wanting except for the avionics. STOL kit, float kit, LR fuel, 80" CS Hartzell.
Another buddy I was helping shop got a 170B w/180hp last year for $40k with the 76" CS Hartzell and fairly stock. It cruises fast with the stock wing. He looked at two other 180hp 170s for $37.5k and $50k. The one he picked was the cleanest of them.

Buy one that's converted and then upgrade from there.

Not like I'm biased towards 170s or anything [/quote

A 180 should go a lot faster than 135 on 13gph.

I’ve got a bunch of little pictures of dead presidents, but haven’t been able to get near any converted 170 for the kind of prices you are talking about.

Any advice for finding one?

Not sure what happened to my response (not the first time). I wrote a rather detailed reply about previously owning nearly the same thing, ie. a 172 and a Champ. Although my Champ was highly modified and on floats. One of the most fun planes I have ever owned, regrettably, I sold it.
I still have the 172 since they are a very practical and affordable plane to own and fly. I've owned it going on 32 years. I also have a RANS S7 that replaced the Champ.

Over the years I have thought of upgrading many times to a 180/182 but never took the plunge. Recently I have been giving it more though again as I want to get down to one aircraft as retirement really doesn't allow me to have the funds nor time to maintain two+ airplanes. I decided I wanted something newer or rebuilt to near new condition. I've been looking at Super Cubs, 180's etc. My idea of owning a 180 has always been there, and since revisiting it, I realize it is too much airplane for me.

You mentioned that you are 125 lbs. Not a lot of 'meat' to be moving around a 180. I'm a runt also at a whooping 5'6" but closer to 170ish lbs. Might I suggest that if you get the opportunity to fly one, go visit a couple of grass strips. Land, get out and move the plane around in preparation for the day you land at some back country strip and need to re position the plane for parking or departing. This will give you an idea of how heavy the beast will be to man handle. I only mention this due to recently looking at a nicer 1953 180. I was seriously considering it and even had a wad of cash with me to buy it. My son (smart young man) reminded me that it would be rather hard for me to move the plane around at the normal places I fly. Since I do have some physical limitations, he was 100% correct. I normally fly solo 95% of the time so would not have any help. He (my son) reminded me of the reason I sold my Champ on floats. After he was commissioned into the Air Force, he wasn't there to help me load/unload the plane from the float plane trailer. The year after he went into the military, my flying the Champ dwindled to less than 20 hours. This was entirely due to the inability to handle the plane by myself. It basically became work to take it flying and resulted in me selling it.

The 180 I was looking at, even though an early model, also had the aux fuel tank in the baggage area. It was 30 gallons, which would end up adding even more weight to the aircraft. I am one that usually flies with full fuel, especially when away from home. This would end up adding more weight on the tail, which adds to the already heavy plane. I walked away from a really nice plane, convinced that I will have to get a 2-seater. Just food for thought!

WWhunter wrote:snipYou mentioned that you are 125 lbs. Not a lot of 'meat' to be moving around a 180 snip

A valuable point!! This is what convinced me a 180 was too much plane off the bat. I can hardly move my 172 around loaded uphill solo into the hanger. It is really, really, annoying. Maybe the 180 would let me put on some muscle......

I've read all comments but have been an observer rather than butting in. It's great to have some much information and real world numbers on this thread. It seems a 170B with the 180 CS can be close to the 180, when comparing cruise & T/L & fuel. The only problem is for the money it takes to make one, you can buy a 180 which is a little better in all three categories, but (debatably) laking in the fun category. I suppose I will just have to fly, fly, fly the both of them (stock 170, stock 180) and see which feels a better platform for me to dump some money in to.

Keep the comments coming!

With T Hangars, find a good quality winch, powered by 110, and mout it in the back of the hangar. Makes getting a plane in (especially with some uphill) easy.

I’ve mounted a winch on a vertical wall, with a pulley low, tied to a knee wall, and my current one is simply bolted to the concrete floor.

Saves a LOT of slipping and sliding when wet or icy.

I’ve used this kind of setup on 206, 185, and smaller types.

MTV

mtv wrote:With T Hangars, find a good quality winch, powered by 110, and mout it in the back of the hangar. Makes getting a plane in (especially with some uphill) easy.

I’ve mounted a winch on a vertical wall, with a pulley low, tied to a knee wall, and my current one is simply bolted to the concrete floor.

Saves a LOT of slipping and sliding when wet or icy.

I’ve used this kind of setup on 206, 185, and smaller types.

MTV

Excellent point Mike! I did exactly that in my hangar here at the house and also put one in my hangar in town. Busted my butt last winter trying to push the 172 in when the ramp was icy! It's the issue I have when not at the airport that convinced me to quit looking at 180's.

Maybe I need one of those 'Chainsaw winches' that I can throw into the plane when I am away from the airport!!

Alaskan Tin Can wrote:Most early 180s weigh around 1650 lbs w/2650 gross = 1000 useful - full fuel 330lbs = 670 payload
170B w/180hp weighs about 1350 lbs w/2200 gross = 850 useful - full fuel 222lbs = 628 payload

The strongest advantage that the 180 hp 170 has over a C180 is that you can operate it at 1750 lb or less with yourself, a light load and a couple of hours of fuel on board. This characteristic creates pretty good overlap into the Supercub's capabilities. Aircraft that weigh this little are a whole lot better for short and rough field operations. The 170 is also a lot easier to push around by yourself. It doesn't sound like seriously short and rough strips are a high priority for you.

A 180 is generally a more capable airplane for most other operations.

My 67 H model 180 is very capable and a blast off airport when lightly loaded despite the truckish feel that can be associated with the later model wagons. I often fly it at under 2100 lb and it will fly at surprisingly low speeds if you are comfortable handling it close to stall speed at rotation and approach. It is comfortable and confidence inspiring on long trips with the family and in light IFR.

"Maybe I need one of those 'Chainsaw winches' that I can throw into the plane when I am away from the airport!! "

Older folks that somehow survive life's bumps get smart. If we need to move something heavy like a Cessna one of these can help. Plus the rope is always good to have.

http://www.maasdam.com/rope-pullers.html

Gary

PA1195 wrote:"Maybe I need one of those 'Chainsaw winches' that I can throw into the plane when I am away from the airport!! "

Older folks that somehow survive life's bumps get smart. If we need to move something heavy like a Cessna one of these can help. Plus the rope is always good to have.

http://www.maasdam.com/rope-pullers.html

Gary

I bought one of those after seeing it on BCP I think. It is nicely made (way better than the cheap wire comealongs) and works well.

This video shows what I mean when I say the 170 is more fun to fly than the 180 when you’re just dinking around. The 180 can do this kinda stuff too but not quite as easily or comfortably. My buddy Joey (avidflyer) put this together with video I shot following him around low and slow. I don’t think I got over 60mph in this video, most was probably around 50mph or even less (the sportsman STOL helps a lot here).

I own and fly a 170B/180 hp, have owned a 180H and a A185F and am currently doing a 180H project which I will be flying in place of the 170 when it is finished. First my 170 with a 80 inch Hartzel is a 130 mph airplane verse 160 mph for the 180/185. On take off both the big engine 170 and the 180 are a blast. The 170B lands a little slower, same wing less weight. As for flying feel if you fly the 180/185 at the same indicated airspeed as the 170B the controls are similarly light. Also if you fly the 180/185 at the same indicated airspeed as the 170B the fuel burn will be about the same, may be even less in the 185 do to the fuel injection. As for visibility the 170 wins every time. I will say that the only reason I am flying a 170B/180hp is the seller needed the money to build a house and was willing to sell for well below market value.

Tim