Hello all!

Long time lurker, first time poster. I just spent 10 wonderful days in the great white north of Maine with no cell, computer, or screens. As a result I had a lot of thinking time, and what better to think about than airplanes

Some backstory. I bought a 1968 172 ~ a year and half ago and have flown an absolutely amazing 300hrs zig zagging my way across the country. Solo to California, a flight of two to Montana, taking my pops down to FL, the list goes on.



Pictures you ask? Okay... if I must...













The plane is without a doubt the best thing thats ever happened to me. Life has taken on a new meaning ever since it's purchase, but you all already know what I mean so I don't need to go on with that.

After 300hrs in the last 12mo I had a hankering for a tailwheel. The challenge, the allure, the excitement etc etc etc -- again I am sure you all know what I mean. I bought a 1946 7AC Champ and have had more fun in the last 17hrs flight time than should be allowed.











I don't have many pictures as I've been too busy buzzing around the local grass strips. It's opened my eyes to a new way of flying... and I don't want to go back!

Which leads me to my current predicament....



Both planes have their merits. I love cross country flying. I also have no problem going long distances at 100kts. I enjoy looking around, and enjoy the trip. I frequently make the trip from NY (1B1) to Rangeley, Maine (8B0). The ~8hr drive is cut to 2hrs. This was the original reason for the purchase of the 172 and it is brilliant for this purpose. It carries my family of four (though usually just three of us) without issue. I love flying the Champ. It is so relaxing, the whole world just melts before your eyes. I love getting into short-to-me grass strips, seeing the sights at 1000agl, and just bumming about all at 3.5gph. Both planes have their role, and both are economical and enjoyable to fly. A dream scenario you may say!

But it's wearing me thin, emotionally. Every time I fly one, I feel obligated to fly the other so it doesn't feel bad. If I order an insulated cowl blanket for one, I've gotta order a second so the other one doesn't feel left out. Call me crazy (I know, I'm crazy), but I'd like to downsize to ONE plane I'd like one machine to pour my love, resources, and attention to rather than two.

My mission: Continue to fly coast to coast, but then be able to play around when I get there. A platform to learn, master, explore, and upgrade. A plane which is still fun to bust around the patch just before sunset.

Enter: a (potential) 170B. I've broken out my wants and needs to see the BCP opinion on if this plane will do the trick. If I am going to go down this long and arduous path, I'd like the airplane to at least be better than my Skyhawk and Champ in a few ways. Most notably I'd like it to be a bit faster than the 172 and if possible have a bit better range.

Need

1. 115knt cruise
2. 4hr endurance
3. Ability to fit a GTN 650/GNS 430W
4. ~1500ft T/O&L (sea level-2500ft elev 80% of the time)
5. Engine monitor
6. >12 GPH

Want

1. 120knt cruise
2. 5hr endurance
3. GTN 750
4. >1200 T/O&L
5. 10gph

Now I don't think a stock 170B fits the bill. It'd be slower than my 172 which would knock out some of my XC flying. It surely wouldn't have the GNS430W, GTX345 (I just put in...), GMA340, etc etc -- so a move now to a stock 170B I believe would be a DOWNGRADE in the XC category. The T/O&L performance wouldn't be better than the 172 I have now, so thats another bust. This is where I believe the 170B turns into a platform to create something more. Three threads have inspired me greatly (and if you didn't think I was crazy before, just wait)

https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/c-17 ... lete-14688
https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/cess ... rade-20703
https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/proj ... -air-14063

Mods

1. IO-360 M1B (http://www.stootsaviation.com/). I believe a 180hp with an 80" MT prop would help the 170B fill some things in my Need category, and maybe even the Want. I know this will not net me a large cruise increase, but I think it will make it a great performer at the strips I want to get in to. If I could get into 1k ft grass strips (sea level) with some margin of safety, I'd be a happy camper. I have to believe the 180hp would net some cruise increase. I love my two carbureted engines and thought I'd stick with them for the long haul, but like the stoots STC lays out and those who have done it -- the IO-360 M1B seems to be a remarkable engine. Coupled with a good engine monitor (CGR-30) 8.5 GPH looks obtainable (thank you denalipilot for the amazing thread).
2. Sportsman STOL, VG's, fun tires (though I'm thinking 8.5x10's). This seems to be par for the course, at least around these parts I have a friend with a 180hp C172 w/ 29"s, I'd like to join the fun!
3. Panel upgrade. I know some of you think it's just eye candy, but I really enjoy flying with the stack I have in my 172. The GNS430W, GTX345 ADSB transponder, GMA340 audio panel, and GNC 250 XL combo is just a treat! My goal is to keep the 170 classic at heart. I'd like to retain the floating panel. amacbean's 170 w/ G5 install (linked above) is perfect. A question for any who knows -- is it possible to fit a GTN650 anywhere in this panel? I know the yoke positioning makes a center stack tricky. I propose a G5 w/ GTN 650 mounted to the pilots left side (where amacbean has his txpdr). I would keep the rest of the analog gauges, but ditch the vac system. The round CGR-30 looks to be the perfect engine monitor for this panel.
4. With more HP comes more fuel. I think 38gal would be a bit limiting with a 180hp up front. The 175 wing tanks look to be perfect, or the DelAir STC.
5. etc, etc, etc -- if I've learnt just one thing from the three listed threads it is that this is a RABBIT HOLE! Things like the atlee dodge jump seats, baggage door, bas tail pulls, all seem to make their way on to this list.

Phew that was a mouthful. I know a 180 will answer most of my needs and wants, but for some reason I just can't see myself jumping into it for a few flights around the pattern. It's a big machine, with a big fuel burn. More than I need, I think. I understand that financially it would make more sense, but as an end result, I think I personally would be happier with a 180hp 170B. Those of you who have been here before (Bigrenna, denalipilot, etc) -- am I crazy?

If nothing else, thank you all for providing the forum for me to dump my thoughts and get inspired by so many great planes and pilots.

Save yourself the trouble:

Just buy a 180 or 185, you won't regret it.

Tim

I'm gonna plus one the vote for starting with a good solid 180.
A bigger motor 170B wont be too far behind a 180 in fuel burn and will have far less capacity and speed.
The 180 isn't that much bigger of an airplane to break the deal.
And that's from a guy two years into a 170B rebuild.

Do you need 4 places? Why not something like a Scout?
If you need 4 places youd probably be cheapest in a 182. Not quite as cool as a TW, but meets your needs and wants and is cheaper than a 180 or 180HP 170B...

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A1Skinner wrote:Do you need 4 places? Why not something like a Scout?
If you need 4 places youd probably be cheapest in a 182. Not quite as cool as a TW, but meets your needs and wants and is cheaper than a 180 or 180HP 170B...

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3 is all I really would like to have, even though 9/10 I'm solo! I'd like a metal airplane.

behindpropellers wrote:Save yourself the trouble:

Just buy a 180 or 185, you won't regret it.

Tim

Bagarre wrote:I'm gonna plus one the vote for starting with a good solid 180.
A bigger motor 170B wont be too far behind a 180 in fuel burn and will have far less capacity and speed.
The 180 isn't that much bigger of an airplane to break the deal.
And that's from a guy two years into a 170B rebuild.

Crap.. I knew this would be the popular opinion, and I suppose I was just asking for these answers by opening up the thread! My fear is not wanting to take the 180 out because it's "too big" -- too this, too that, etc. For some reason the 170 doesn't strike fear into me in the same way (maybe because I don't have issue taking out the 172).

There is a grass strip 4.8nm from my home airport (1B1 -> NY1), then another 8.7nm away (1B1 -> 1A1). On a nice evening, would you drag the 180 out of the hanger and pop over there? In my mind, I say no. But I've done it in the 172, and I could see dragging out a nice light 170B w/ 8.5x10s and a nice 80" MT prop over there in a heartbeat!!

Is there another way to say "am I crazy?" I feel I'm saying that too often...

iiAtlas wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:Do you need 4 places? Why not something like a Scout?
If you need 4 places youd probably be cheapest in a 182. Not quite as cool as a TW, but meets your needs and wants and is cheaper than a 180 or 180HP 170B...

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

3 is all I really would like to have, even though 9/10 I'm solo! I'd like a metal airplane.

behindpropellers wrote:Save yourself the trouble:

Just buy a 180 or 185, you won't regret it.

Tim

Bagarre wrote:I'm gonna plus one the vote for starting with a good solid 180.
A bigger motor 170B wont be too far behind a 180 in fuel burn and will have far less capacity and speed.
The 180 isn't that much bigger of an airplane to break the deal.
And that's from a guy two years into a 170B rebuild.

Crap.. I knew this would be the popular opinion, and I suppose I was just asking for these answers by opening up the thread! My fear is not wanting to take the 180 out because it's "too big" -- too this, too that, etc. For some reason the 170 doesn't strike fear into me in the same way (maybe because I don't have issue taking out the 172).

There is a grass strip 4.8nm from my home airport (1B1 -> NY1), then another 8.7nm away (1B1 -> 1A1). On a nice evening, would you drag the 180 out of the hanger and pop over there? In my mind, I say no. But I've done it in the 172, and I could see dragging out a nice light 170B w/ 8.5x10s and a nice 80" MT prop over there in a heartbeat!!

Is there another way to say "am I crazy?" I feel I'm saying that too often...

I wanted a 185. Even found a really nice early 185 for a great price. I ended up with a 206 because I needed room for my 3 kids. That being said....

I can get the 206 in everywhere that I took our supercub. Not as much fun to fly but...its still flying. Sure is nice to go up and turn the autopilot on and let it fly us to where we need to go.

Now...if I could find a like minded person that wants an interest in a 206 and supercub......

Tim

iiAtlas wrote:There is a grass strip 4.8nm from my home airport (1B1 -> NY1), then another 8.7nm away (1B1 -> 1A1). On a nice evening, would you drag the 180 out of the hanger and pop over there? In my mind, I say no. But I've done it in the 172, and I could see dragging out a nice light 170B w/ 8.5x10s and a nice 80" MT prop over there in a heartbeat!!

Hell yes I would. I would take my old 182 there in a heartbeat, and it's basically just a 180 with a nose wheel. If the carrying capacity and speed of a 172 is fine for you, then a 170 with similar useful load and strong engine should be fine. The available load will be fully subjective to the specific airframe (within some sort of range) as many of these have all been torn apart and put back together various ways. But if you really want to stack your panel and still haul people+fuel, a 180 or 185 is what you'll likely want. You also get the benefit of a minimum 230HP engine (more if they've done one of the engine upgrades), and you can keep it as light as you want but still haul some major weight when you want to.

Is there another way to say "am I crazy?" I feel I'm saying that too often...

Bro, you have come to the wrong forum if you're asking for us to talk you off that ledge.

No argument that a 180 does everything a 170 does and more, but I just like the 170. I don't want a 180. If its what you like go for it.
Find one that at least has the right motor on the front, it will be cheaper than doing it yourself.

daedaluscan wrote:No argument that a 180 does everything a 170 does and more, but I just like the 170. I don't want a 180. If its what you like go for it.
Find one that at least has the right motor on the front, it will be cheaper than doing it yourself.

I think this is where I'm at, as illogical as it may be. I suppose what I'm really asking is, too the tune of how much money do I have to be to make a 180hp 170B happen. It is hard to piece together information on how much projects like this cost as they often spiral into much more. I suppose I'd be happy to have this happen in phases.

Phase 1. Nice flying O-300 170B
Phase 2. IO-360 M1B, CGR-30, basic avionics and panel work?
Phase 3. Sportsman stol, tanks if necessary, vg's?

I just fear the intermediary where I go from two really sorted and nice flying planes to something not quite what I want it to be and a long ways off... hrmmmm

If you start with the absolute nicest 170 you can find and do just the motor swap, plan $50k or more for the airplane and $50k or more for the motor swap.
Of course, you wont do JUST that so budget another $50k on top of that.

These numbers are assuming you will do the vast majority of work yourself. If you plan to pay a shop, add an extra $100k to the existing $150k.

Bagarre wrote:If you start with the absolute nicest 170 you can find and do just the motor swap, plan $50k or more for the airplane and $50k or more for the motor swap.
Of course, you wont do JUST that so budget another $50k on top of that.

These numbers are assuming you will do the vast majority of work yourself. If you plan to pay a shop, add an extra $100k to the existing $150k.

Thanks Bagarre. I see how that puts the 180's into play... I'm still interested, but understand why strictly financially it doesn't make much sense. Flying a pals 180 soon. Maybe that will whack some sense into me!

daedaluscan wrote:No argument that a 180 does everything a 170 does and more, but I just like the 170. I don't want a 180.

Sometimes we just have to say this and others have to accept it. 170 love is a thing. Nothing in aviation makes sense and people spend too much time trying to reconcile everything.

An alternative to the 170 is a 175 with 180 hp. and a taildragger conversion. It will already have the larger tanks. The vertical stabilizer might not be as attractive depending on your taste, but I would favour the big square straight tail for handling.

Arrange bridge financing at your lender. Keep flying what you have now. When a 170 or 175 with all the desirable mods comes up for sale, buy it, and then sell the 172 and Champ.

How about Jaudets 220 hp. 172?

And now that I’ve patronized you and your original post, your best move is to buy a 180 with autopilot and avionics as close to your wish as possible. A 185, given your fuel injection comment, is optimum but I don’t think we can drag you that far away from the 170.

An early light weight 180 is fun to fly. This is one I re did the panel a couple years ago. cgr-30p and a 530


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Okay, before I start, a couple caveats:

First, if you’re going to do this, you need to be realistic about cost. It’s gonna be expensive and you’ll be deep underwater on this airplane if you go the route you describe. You’ll never get your money back....never.

If that doesn’t scare you, then go for it. I’m with you 100%, the 170 is a hell of a lot more fun to fly than a 180. And, I’ve owned a really nice H model 180 and a 170B with 180 hp carbureted engine.

But, he 170 has a gross weight of 2200 pounds. Period. No GW increase STCs in the US. So, it needs to be light, to carry four and nothing but toothbrushes or three and MINIMAL camping gear. My 170 weighed around 1350 empty. That ain’t easy to get to. Do the math. Less than 900 lbs useful......

Gas: I had Flint tip tanks, and I’d do so again. About same price as other options. By the by, the stock 170B tanks have 37 useable, not 38.

If (and that’s a big IF) you can find a converted 170, you’ll let the previous owner piss away his retirement fund on the thing as opposed to yours. That said, understand that Stoots isn’t exactly selling his conversions by the dozen.

Other potential options: A 175 tailwheel converted, with O-360 engine.......or 172. Same same.

But, you’re going to have $150 K in that 170 by the time you’re done, at least.

Good luck.

MTV

Zzz wrote:

daedaluscan wrote:No argument that a 180 does everything a 170 does and more, but I just like the 170. I don't want a 180.

Sometimes we just have to say this and others have to accept it. 170 love is a thing. Nothing in aviation makes sense and people spend too much time trying to reconcile everything.

This is very true and is why I started my 170 project. They do have a certain, I don't know what.

Pinecone wrote:An alternative to the 170 is a 175 with 180 hp. and a taildragger conversion. It will already have the larger tanks. The vertical stabilizer might not be as attractive depending on your taste, but I would favour the big square straight tail for handling.

Arrange bridge financing at your lender. Keep flying what you have now. When a 170 or 175 with all the desirable mods comes up for sale, buy it, and then sell the 172 and Champ.

How about Jaudets 220 hp. 172?

And now that I’ve patronized you and your original post, your best move is to buy a 180 with autopilot and avionics as close to your wish as possible. A 185, given your fuel injection comment, is optimum but I don’t think we can drag you that far away from the 170.

Pinecone (nice name ) thanks for the input. A generous BCP local has popped into my PM's and offered to meet up for lunch. He has a converted 175 like you mention. I look forward to seeing it!

Tom wrote:An early light weight 180 is fun to fly. This is one I re did the panel a couple years ago. cgr-30p and a 530

Wow... spot on what I'm after. Maybe time to weigh the pros & cons of stepping up to the big 180. That would be some XC bird.... thanks for sharing Tom.

mtv wrote:Okay, before I start, a couple caveats:

First, if you’re going to do this, you need to be realistic about cost. It’s gonna be expensive and you’ll be deep underwater on this airplane if you go the route you describe. You’ll never get your money back....never.

If that doesn’t scare you, then go for it. I’m with you 100%, the 170 is a hell of a lot more fun to fly than a 180. And, I’ve owned a really nice H model 180 and a 170B with 180 hp carbureted engine.

But, he 170 has a gross weight of 2200 pounds. Period. No GW increase STCs in the US. So, it needs to be light, to carry four and nothing but toothbrushes or three and MINIMAL camping gear. My 170 weighed around 1350 empty. That ain’t easy to get to. Do the math. Less than 900 lbs useful......

Gas: I had Flint tip tanks, and I’d do so again. About same price as other options. By the by, the stock 170B tanks have 37 useable, not 38.

If (and that’s a big IF) you can find a converted 170, you’ll let the previous owner piss away his retirement fund on the thing as opposed to yours. That said, understand that Stoots isn’t exactly selling his conversions by the dozen.

Other potential options: A 175 tailwheel converted, with O-360 engine.......or 172. Same same.

But, you’re going to have $150 K in that 170 by the time you’re done, at least.

Good luck.

MTV

MTV -- thanks for chiming in! First off, I know this endeavor is a financial wash. I can take the money I put in and burn 3/4 of it when it comes to resale. That being said, life isn't all dollars and cents (though I do realize this is still a really. big. wash.) The smile it puts on my face may not be big enough to offset the whole in my wallet. I suppose that was my effort with this thread, and I guess I am getting the expected response (which I still appreciate!)

To make matters worse, it's not like I already HAVE a 170 sitting around! The thought of buying one specifically for this project leaves a bit to be desired...

I am a light guy at 125lbs. 75% of the time I'm solo, 24% two up, 1% 3 up. My camping gear consists mainly of lightweight backpackers stuff. Don't ask me why, I just think it's cool. On longer trips a 30lb generator or mountain bike, but all in all nothing to the load some of you all haul or which a 180 is capable of. This pushes the "it's too much airplane" for me debate further, and makes me contemplate the crazy 170B project. In my heart, I know (think) I'd be happier with the end result.

I'll say it again, am I crazy? Maybe I should rename the thread...

jus by a mall

170 big engine (+p) vs 180:

170+p's weigh less and are easier for one person to push around on the ground.

170+p's have much better visibility because of the lower panel, though for some reason a lot of people choose to phuck that up with a center stack radio modification. If you want to fly IFR, forget the 170 and get a 180. Other than IFR, I can see no possible advantage to the center stack radio mutilation...er...modification.

170+p's cost much less per hour, though maybe not any less per mile. The big engine helps a little with speed, but the 170 will always be dragging that big-ass tail through the air, and it'll never be fast, no matter what you hang on the front.

A 170+p is a better 'round-the-pattern and short hop airplane (sparking up a big conti just to do a half hour of sunset watching is frankly silly), while the 180 is a vastly better cross country machine. You'll probably pay considerably more in engine maintenance with the 180.

170's with the big engine are expensive, but they are NOT in the same category of financial absurdity as 180's. With critical times and equipment being the same, a 180 will be tens of thousands of dollars more.

180's cary a considerably heavier load, and fly considerably faster. If you think you want to take three or four people into the backcountry with camping gear, that's your bird. The 170+p will leave you short on load and power at high DA and at short airstrips at max weight. At reduced weight, they'll get in and out of strips too tight for a 180, though very few pilots actually operate at that level of airmanship.

If you want a big-engine 170, look for one someone else converted. If you think you want to do the project yourself, just buy the most expensive 180/185 you can possibly find and it'll end up costing you less than a 170+p if your time is worth even minimum wage.

Do not get hung up on all the things a big-engine 170 might need because of the bigger engine, like extra fuel. They do just fine with stock fuel tanks. There are things that are nice to have, but none of them are deal breakers.

Frankly I'd just start shopping for both and buy either one when the right one comes along. A good specimen of either airplane is VASTLY better than a poor specimen of the other.

Or just buy a Maul...

Curious....How old are you? Are you married....kids?