I’ve owned the same 180 for 30 years this month.

We take it up all the time to fly around the patch, give rides, fly over to the next lake, etc. It’s really not much bigger than a 170/172; and the early ones fly delightfully.

Fuel? 12-13 GPH vs. 9-10 in the 180hp 170. Pretty small margin in the big picture. (Ours is a Pponk, burns more like 13-15).

The big difference is on a trip. The 180 goes a lot faster than a 170. Buy a 180, you’ll never regret it, IMHO

170B w/ a 180HP is a great flying bird... 180 is also a great flying bird. Your notion that a 180 is a "big" machine is a bit off. They are just different. I prefer flying the 180 over the 170B as it does way more. That said, the 170B I am building will most likely blow the doors off the 180 in the short stuff as it is going to be 500 lbs lighter.

Whatever you choose, swallow the real world notion that you are talking about a $150k plus bird. If you are not an AP and will be paying for labor than add another $50k. This sickness we all suffer from tends to keep folks suspended in disbelief. Fact is there is zero way around it. Bring your checkbook.

If you are in love with the 170B, AND have the spare cash, then by all means go the 170 route. You will LOVE it! If you want a more sensible option that will do everything you outlined, then buy a 180 and mod it out. From what you describe, the 180 is going to suit your mission much better. Look for a nice early-ish 180 and never look back. Bliss.

Be careful if you start looking at the 172 conversion. They can be really heavy, especially if the a-hole mechanic leaves the orig gearbox inside! Im also not a fan of the Bolen conversion, especially the wide leg version. The 175 is a bit better as it has the larger tanks and as long as you go with the 2300 GW rather than the first year 2200lb version you could be ok, but same feelings about the Bolen. Another downside of both is there are less mods you can easily do. You will be constantly running into issues with some of the bush mods. Im running into this right now on a 175 as well as a 172 TD conversion. They can be cool, but they are not 170s or 180s. They are their own things.

FWIW, you are pretty close to me. I am building a 170B 180hp right now and consulting on another one. Im also just about to finish my Skywagon. You can check out both birds in person if you fly out. (PM me)

And if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, I will find you a solid B and build you one. LOL

iiAtlas wrote: I suppose what I'm really asking is, too the tune of how much money do I have to be to make a 180hp 170B happen.

Lots:

quick fuzzy math from your list and some other stuff I'd assume you'd want:

really clean solid flying bird - $50k
Stoots STC - $25k ish
IO360 - $35-$40k
Sportsman + install - $6k
Bushwheels - $4k
BBW - $1k
VGs - $1500
MT 2 blade - $15k
V Brace - $500
CF Extended bagage - $1100
Baggage door + stc - $1k
180 landing gear - $5k
Dbl Pucks - $1800
CGR30P - $4k
430 and 650 + CDIs $20k
Aeroled strobes $1100
Aeroled Landing/Taxi - $900
Avion STC + their panel (so you can get a center stack) $10k (give or take)
stuff Im forgetting for the engine install $10k

Thats north of $175k for the bird and the parts. Then add labor. I am on my 5th build now and have a good idea of the scope, and I am planning on 2800 - 3000 hrs in my 170B resto-mod project.

Im sure there are tons of other goodies you will want...

Bigrenna wrote:

iiAtlas wrote: I suppose what I'm really asking is, too the tune of how much money do I have to be to make a 180hp 170B happen.

Lots:

quick fuzzy math, but...

really clean solid flying bird - $50k
Stoots STC - $25k ish
IO360 - $35-$40k
Sportsman + install - $6k
Bushwheels - $4k
BBW - $1k
VGs - $1500
MT 2 blade - $15k
V Brace - $500
CF Extended bagage - $1100
Baggage door + stc - $1k
180 landing gear - $5k
Dbl Pucks - $1800
CGR30P - $4k
430 and 650 + CDIs $20k
Aeroled strobes $1100
Aeroled Landing/Taxi - $900
Avion STC + their panel (so you can get a center stack) $10k (give or take)
stuff Im forgetting for the engine install $10k

Thats north of $175k for the bird and the parts. Then add labor. I am on my 5th build now and have a good idea of the scope, and I am planning on 2800 - 3000 hrs in my 170B resto-mod project.

Im sure there are tons of other goodies you will want...

Or buy an airplane someone else already put the important part of all that into for dimes on the dollar, and ignore a WHOLE lot of the rest...

Hammer wrote:Or buy an airplane someone else already put the important part of all that into for dimes on the dollar, and ignore a WHOLE lot of the rest...

Agreed.

But then again, it's never the way you want it if you dont do it yourself! None of this stuff is SMRT.

There is a 170B/180hp for sale on Barnstormers.

Same old same old. Everybody wants a converted 170 but nobody wants to convert one. Op wants to add to the total pool, more power to him.

180

They're already done. A C-170-175 is a STC owners dream project. Get the same serious manufacturer or STC data from both and compare. Likely it's not been done except by Cessna. Trim tab elevator or flying stabilizer...I'd prefer the latter with power and weight/CG.

Happy is as happy does so enjoy the experience.

Gary

Edit: PP float rating in a C-170B-180 42 years ago. Checked out in a C-180 wheels and skis but few hours. Flew a C-185 20 years. I'm no expert in a 170 or 180.

Bigrenna wrote:

Hammer wrote:Or buy an airplane someone else already put the important part of all that into for dimes on the dollar, and ignore a WHOLE lot of the rest...

Agreed.

But then again, it's never the way you want it if you dont do it yourself! None of this stuff is SMRT.

If you can find one. How often does a 170B - 180hp, Long range tank, Sportsman, 180 geared vehicle hit the market?
The super 170 is a phenomena of the last 5 to 10 years. The people who built them are still trying to fly off the stack of bills they stuffed in the tail to correct the CG. I think I know of more super 170s being built than are currently flying.

Even with $150k in your pocket, you'd be hard pressed to find one to buy outright.

Bigrenna wrote:170B w/ a 180HP is a great flying bird... 180 is also a great flying bird. Your notion that a 180 is a "big" machine is a bit off. They are just different. I prefer flying the 180 over the 170B as it does way more. That said, the 170B I am building will most likely blow the doors off the 180 in the short stuff as it is going to be 500 lbs lighter.

Whatever you choose, swallow the real world notion that you are talking about a $150k plus bird. If you are not an AP and will be paying for labor than add another $50k. This sickness we all suffer from tends to keep folks suspended in disbelief. Fact is there is zero way around it. Bring your checkbook.

If you are in love with the 170B, AND have the spare cash, then by all means go the 170 route. You will LOVE it! If you want a more sensible option that will do everything you outlined, then buy a 180 and mod it out. From what you describe, the 180 is going to suit your mission much better. Look for a nice early-ish 180 and never look back. Bliss.

Be careful if you start looking at the 172 conversion. They can be really heavy, especially if the a-hole mechanic leaves the orig gearbox inside! Im also not a fan of the Bolen conversion, especially the wide leg version. The 175 is a bit better as it has the larger tanks and as long as you go with the 2300 GW rather than the first year 2200lb version you could be ok, but same feelings about the Bolen. Another downside of both is there are less mods you can easily do. You will be constantly running into issues with some of the bush mods. Im running into this right now on a 175 as well as a 172 TD conversion. They can be cool, but they are not 170s or 180s. They are their own things.

FWIW, you are pretty close to me. I am building a 170B 180hp right now and consulting on another one. Im also just about to finish my Skywagon. You can check out both birds in person if you fly out. (PM me)

And if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, I will find you a solid B and build you one. LOL

Mostly good information. But, first model year 175 was 1958. Gross weight is 2350:

Model 175, Skylark, 4 PCL-SM (Normal Category) (cont'd)
Landplane:
(+41.5) to (+46.4) at 2350 lbs. (+36.5) to (+46.4) at 1850 lbs. or les
Seaplane:
(+39.5) to (+45.5) at 2350 lbs.
(+36.5) to (+45.5) at 2020 lbs. or less Straight line variation between points given.
None
2350 lbs. (landplane) 2350 lbs. (seaplane)

The 170B is 2200 lbs, and that can be pretty limiting.

MTV

Okay, I'll help you spend your money. Buy a 182 for the speed, load, cross country, and cheaper insurance. Keep the Champ and you will still be cool.

All,

Lots of really good feedback, opinions, and info. Hammer thank you for the 170+ vs 180 comparison. For those saying the 180 is not much bigger than the 172/170 I suppose I will just have to really spend some time sitting in them side to side, and flying them back and forth. I have spent time in both a 170 and a 180, but not with a comparative mindset, just in the right seat for a hop.

Aqua, thanks for the fuel figs. Glad to hear you still happily take it around the patch and pop up with friends, that is something I don't want to lose, but was afraid I would. Where in NY are you?

denalipilot -- yes, it most certainly seems like a lot of people would buy them, but never build them! I wonder how they got there in the first place...

Bigrenna -- PM inbound. Thanks for the pricing break down. Being not an A&P just an enthusiastic on looker, that labor cost goes up, up, up.

And a general note. I am still not turned off. I think the end result would be a really sweet bird and that seems to be the general opinion. That being said, I may be silly not considering a 180 without spending considerable time in one. It seems the 180 comes with more or less everything I'd want added to the 170B... The speed, the range, the performance. Add a CGR-30 and a GTN 650 and it'd be a solid bird, and a sellable one at that. Maybe something to consider as a tide-me-over...

When you all mention "early" 180, whats the year cut off in your mind? A quick look at the changes over time shows no obvious time they start to get less-desirable.

Thank you all for the intel!

The 180 will tick most of your need/want box and this from a proud 170B owner.................but it doesn't have a round tail, I like round tails !!!!!
As pointed out earlier, its just a 170 thing NO logic to it at all !!!!

I ended up selling my really nice 1953 170B two and a half years ago and replaced it with a 1957 275hp Pponk’d 180A. I really wanted to add an O-360 and CS prop to the 170. I figured with the amount of money it would take for the conversion I would be better off selling it and upgrading to the 180. The 170 was adequate but the 180 better fit my mission and growing family. I fly with my wife and 2 kids a lot and do a fair amount of cross country flying, traveling at 155MPH is nice. And 275HP vs 145 (or even 180) is a big difference. Fuel burn is a a lot more per hour in the 180 but MPG is pretty similar. You can fly 100hrs a year for $5-6k, depending on fuel prices, that’s a pretty small expense in the grand scheme of owning, operating, and maintaining an airplane. Time to climb to altitude is greatly reduced, and I’m usually climbing at a faster airspeed than my 170 would cruise at. The ability to get an upgross on the 180 was a big deciding factor as well, I plan to eventually add wing-x to bump the gross to 2950. I do miss the lighter controls and nimbleness of the 170 over the 180. The 170 is more fun in my opinion for just dinking around in and the visibility over the nose is better. The 180 is a better all around airplane though and I’m still happy I upgraded. I just wish I did it sooner and did all the upgrades I did on my 170 to the 180 instead. It all just comes down to your personal mission and what you want the airplane to do. I think you’ll be happy with either but you may wish you just started with a 180 after flying the 170 for a while. If you do want an O-360 170, definitely do what others have said and just buy one already converted then add the other mods you want and you’ll be saving a lot of money.

robw56 wrote:

Thanks Rob for the thoughtful comment. That all sounds about right. The comparison pic is enlightening! Until I saw the tail..I couldn't tell which was which.

As I now consider selling the 172, I dread the $$ I put into upgrades (I'm looking at you $7k GTX345...). I can see now that feeling re-appearing ten-fold if I go this 170B project and end up wanting a 180.

From what I can gather from this thread... the 180 is a better airplane for my mission, but it's less fun. I now need to fly both with a purchase in mind and see if the 180 speaks to me. If it does, I'd be one happy camper! If not....I'll have a major project ahead of me... either way, thanks for the all the comments. Time to get flying! There's a 1958 180B local I'm friends with. Maybe I'll trade him some Champ time....

Don’t get me wrong, the 180 is still a blast to fly. Just lacks the same light nimble feeling of the 170. But every time I push the throttle forward it still puts a big smile on my face. The added confidence blasting out of mountain strips, especially with a load, is awesome.

Bagarre wrote:

Bigrenna wrote:

Hammer wrote:Or buy an airplane someone else already put the important part of all that into for dimes on the dollar, and ignore a WHOLE lot of the rest...

Agreed.

But then again, it's never the way you want it if you dont do it yourself! None of this stuff is SMRT.

If you can find one. How often does a 170B - 180hp, Long range tank, Sportsman, 180 geared vehicle hit the market?
The super 170 is a phenomena of the last 5 to 10 years. The people who built them are still trying to fly off the stack of bills they stuffed in the tail to correct the CG. I think I know of more super 170s being built than are currently flying.

Even with $150k in your pocket, you'd be hard pressed to find one to buy outright.

$150k??!!

I haven't been looking recently, but ten-ish years ago we bought a VERY nice 170B with the O-360 engine and CS prop for about $70k. The engine had less than 50 hours since overhaul, and the prop slightly more. At the time we were paying top dollar, but it's what we wanted. A similar 180 would have been a LOT more.

Aside from Bass pull handles, P-Ponk gear boxes, Horton STOL kit, Atlee Dodge fold up rear seats and a V-brace, it wasn't much modified from the stock airframe, but it had a new interior and an excellent new paint job.

The only modifications I felt were really necessary were Bass inertia reel seat belts, solid axels, double puck brakes, Steve's Aircraft gascolator, fuel flow meter, and extended baggage. Maybe $5k~8k or so total...if that? I've done some other things too, but aside from some avionics to get my instrument license, it didn't add up to a whole lot.

Maybe prices have gone up that much...or maybe people are adding every modification that's ever been STC'd and doubling or tripling the cost of the conversion?

airscooter wrote:There is a 170B/180hp for sale on Barnstormers.

I went through this same sort of dilemna a number of years ago.
I owned a ragwing170 for 11 years and 1700 hours.
Always liked 180's but figured they were too much airplane,
and that a hotrodded 170B would be about right.
But every time I test flew one, or just rode in one,
they just didn't seem like they had the get-up-and-go a good light 180 has.
Money-wise, converting one didn't seem to pencil out,
and the prices for those already converted seemed right up here with (or higher than) an early 180.
I sidetracked into a C150/150TD for a few years, but finally bought myself a 180 about 4 years ago.
It puts a smile on my face every time I fly it, I wish I'd done it years ago.

If that 180hp 170 on BS is as represented, it's a pretty good deal at $70K--
way less than you'd have into converting one.
But if you look around a bit, I think there's still some early 180's for sale in the same price range,
which to me seems like more bang for the buck.
Mine's a 53 model with a K engine & some good mods--
it's a nice airplane (but no show-stopper) and I only paid $62K for it.
At 1650# or so, it's not especially light for an early 180,
but it's still only 300# heavier than a pretty-darn-light 180hp 170 would be at 1350.

What Rob said. He has had both.

I think a 170 build will cost you more than a similar performing 180, and take a lot of time and effort. Both are desirable in today's market, and there seem to be very few nice 180hp 170s on the market at any time. They seem to sell fast also. If it really did cost you $150k to build a dream 170 you would not see that out of it IMNSHO.

The seaplane prop and Sportsman have reduced my desire to go to 180hp. If you can be happy with that combo there are more 0-300 170s around.

iiAtlas wrote:…..Both planes have their merits. I love cross country flying. I also have no problem going long distances at 100kts. I enjoy looking around, and enjoy the trip. I frequently make the trip from NY (1B1) to Rangeley, Maine (8B0). The ~8hr drive is cut to 2hrs. This was the original reason for the purchase of the 172 and it is brilliant for this purpose. It carries my family of four (though usually just three of us) without issue. I love flying the Champ. It is so relaxing, the whole world just melts before your eyes. I love getting into short-to-me grass strips, seeing the sights at 1000agl, and just bumming about all at 3.5gph. Both planes have their role, and both are economical and enjoyable to fly. A dream scenario you may say! But it's wearing me thin, emotionally. ....

Been thinking about this this morning....
like most things in life, airplanes are a compromise,
and no one model is gonna do everything you want.
For some, a Beaver or Kodiak or KingAir best meets their needs--
for others, it's an ultralight.
For most of us, it's somewhere in between.
And it's not just about "mission requirements"-
my C150/150TD met those.
But I always wanted a 180 and so when I got a chance to buy a good one from a friend,
I jumped on it.
I've had a little bit of seller's regret about letting the C150TD go,
but not a bit of buyer's regret about the 180.

I'd say you have a good thing going on with what you have--
maybe you should just give some thought to just sucking it up "emotionally" and keeping them both.
Or keep the Champ, sell the 172,
and partner up with someone on a bigger better more expensive traveling airplane--
180/182, 206, Bonanza.