Trying to deal with 100 pilots is like trying to herd worms. I think it is best done right here. I think in future years we should try and keep as low a profile as possible. This fly in is for BCP web site people, and that should be made clear. That will help keep the numbers down. I talked to a lot of people last year who just heard about the fly in and wanted to come for the show.

If you want to go with a number of friend to a strip think about this. Stagger your take off times so you don't have 4 planes circling. The first guy should be the guy with the good camera and a hand held radio. Second guy video. Then change the order at the next strip so everybody gets pictures of their plane. If that's important to you.

When you take off for the next strip stagger your take off times. Don't circle over head while the squadron takes formation.

How about the local guys [2 hr flight from JC] don't do any of the sensitive strips and let our friends who came a long ways have fun?

When you land shut down and stay for 30-60 minutes or more. Hike, fish, take picture or have some straight shots.

Speaking of staying and not just landing snapping a picture and off to bag the next strip. Why is it ok for air taxi's to land, dump people, gear and blast off? Well I'm a capitalist and I say more power to them. Somewhere back in this thread someone quipped about my capitalist friends selling their wares at the SuperCub fly in. More power to them. When these same people give us free SWAG I don't here any whinning.

I think we ought to have an award for the quietest airplane. I'd win.

All I can tell you, keeping politics and tree hugging out of it, is that I can do things and go places and no one complains because they didn't even frigging hear me. This wouldn't matter much if I flew out of an airport, but in off airport activities it is a huge benefit, make of that what you will. The fact that it is politically correct is an unexpected bonus, I did it for me not Suzi GranolaCruncher in her Birkenstocks, but if it helps keeping her off my ass that isn't a bad thing.

I have a new closet neighbor (bit over 1/4 mile away), the house is for sale and in the meantime being rented. A friend of mine owns it, and he called the other day to give me the scoop on the new renter, a single woman, who recently took early retirement from a large Washington DC law firm and decided to get "away from it all". I have yet to meet her, but my renter friend already gave her a heads up on my flying activity. It will be interesting to see, when I do eventually meet her, how her perception of my operation's noise level is. I'm betting she has not heard me at all, we'll see. That, and of course, to see whether or not she is good looking

A wise man once stated that two thingies can't occupy the same space @ the same time.
When driving, flying, even walking, we maintain some separation.

Why do the "hikers" & motorized folks need to occupy the same valley? There's lots of room out there, so some separation is possible. Maybe print on the hiker's trail maps that certain areas (strips) are used by planes/quads/etc. Notam other areas that "peace & QUIET" is requested for those types. We could SHARE the country, and not fight over the same turf, 'eh?

Confrontation will not win anything.

Terry wrote:It's about time to draw the line in the sand.
If it makes you feel good saving the Idaho backcountry by not flying it, great stay home!! I for one won't hassle you for your choice.
But leave leave the rest of us that enjoy it responsibly alone, it won't be there for us for long.
What a bunch of tit whining, right before our biggest BCP flyin. (which is a big part of the problem)

Oh, and my ass is still sore about the bull that was going around in 2010 on which way to land JC.
I got my ass chewed twice by the JC caretaker and some other do-gooders that think they know best on how to mind my business. Both times I landed to the North, around the house and into the wind!

Shortly after, Idaho Aeronautics sets the record straight.
WTFO!
I say let's go enjoy responsibly, and the rest of you do-gooders.........

Backcountry Pilots,

There is always that 10% that will "F" it up for everybody else.

Don't be that 10%.

James

Me and my whiskey drinking lips over flowed a little last night.
A typical flying day for me is a group of 3-4planes flying to a lodge for breakfast.
After breakfast we will go to another 2-3 strips. Each year increasing the difficult level, I would love to be able to say I have seen them all.
Maybe it's not the case, but I feel some want me to feel guilty for it.
I agree that over usage is our worst enemy. With 100 planes at JC it's hard to find a strip with no planes parked on it.
So to "limit" usage, the large flyins and mountian training need to go.
If my group of 3-4 planes going to 3-4 strips a day is shutting down strips, it's only a matter of time and they will be closed anyway.
My story and pics to my grand kids will be, for a few years I got to enjoy Idaho's backcountry once a year.
Not, I had the chance and didn't do it.

There is another point to be made here, as BC airstrips in other states are getting closed, the air traffic load increases in areas that still support aviation. I fly to Idaho as do others, because most of our air camping spots have been shut down, leaving the northern states as our only source of recreation, thus increasing their air traffic load, the (forest purists) want it ALL for themselves and have no interest, tolerance or desire in sharing with others that want to recreate there, there is a list, it’s not just us, in doing so increased aircraft use load in states that support aviation. I believe that there is a definite cause and effect that can be directly linked to airstrip closures in other states. Perhaps if there was air camping in California some would be air camping there, thus reducing the number of aircraft in Idaho.
No doubt that we can lighten our impact to some degree, and we should if possible, but the fact remains that the fewer recreational air strips that there are, the more traffic the remaining ones will get, perhaps a (forest purist) might read this and understand that they are responsible for creating this scenario through their successes in closing airstrips in other areas, what else could have happened? It’s as simple as this, open up airstrips in other states and decrease the load on the ones in use. For all that haven’t yet, I encourage you to join the RAF, I believe it’s our best avenue for a common voice and influence in government.

172heavy,
Point well taken on surrounding strip closure increasing traffic for those left. The hunting pressure more than doubled for us here when surrounding farms went to fee hunting only. It got to the point where we had to say no to new requests so that our own children could have a place to come back to hunt. The whole scenario you describe is just the way it happens but with planes involved, the circle affected is just that much larger. I agree that RAF is the tool and pursuing the Recreational Use Statutes state by state is the first step. The second is to excersize those privileges left and to do so responsibly so that the word that is spread about it is conservation, which by the way implies wise use of the resource, not nonuse.

Wow this thread got interesting in a hurry. I grew up in Idaho and now live in California not by choice (USAF) Everytime I go home there is less and less access to the places I grew up 4-wheeling and riding dirt bikes. I agree we need to be respectful but as others have hinted it really doesn't matter in the end. I am taking my entire years vacation, leaving my wife and kids at home for 10 days, spending hundreds of dollars in fuel to get to this fly-in, and have been chomping at the bit for the past 364 days to get back to JC. I'm not doing all of that to sit on the edge of the rwy and wish I was at Mile Hi. I'll leave it at that

MtCoyote writes:
I agree. I have heard the same sentiment from a past caretaker at Johnson Creek. The SC group gets commercial with demo flights and companies plying their goods. Idaho did not intend their BC strips to be used in this manner. The caretaker also expressed the lack of respect for those who choose to discharge firearms in a closed area. And he mentioned someone other than Rob. It was a SC group person who after landing got out and unloaded a pistol in the air, Raghead style.

Hey Jim, I will address your post because as the principal organizer behind the supercub.org event I am keenly interested not only in appropriate conduct by our members but also the perception among those we impact. I believe most readers will recognize your post it for what it is, so I ask their forgiveness as I explore your comments in greater detail.

“The SC group gets commercial with demo flights”. There is some truth in this comment. CubCrafters is one of our event sponsors and they do display and demo aircraft during our event. I am interested in hearing more about this from anyone who attended the supercub.org event. If it has been a problem please let us know what we can do to mitigate the issue.

“and companies plying their goods” To be fair there is some truth in this statement as well. Alaskan Bushwheel has been a sponsor since the beginning and they take a couple minutes during the raffle to update us on new products and developments. I’m sure you would agree that Alaskan Bushwheel has been very respectful of the surroundings and they are also very low-impact on the backcountry. Willy from Hitchcock Aviation took a few moments to tell us about some of his new products… but to stay on subject I rather doubt these discussions had a negative impact on the Idaho backcountry. Other than that we have had presentations from Lori MacNichol, Galen Hanselman and Jack Kotaki. I’m pretty sure these people are living up to your lofty standards.

“The caretaker also expressed the lack of respect for those who choose to discharge firearms in a closed area”. If that really happened it would be an appropriate response from the caretaker. You appear to be saying this happened during the supercub event. Can you tell me when it happened, who the caretaker was, and what closed area you are referring to? I will follow up on it as soon as you get me that information.

“And he mentioned someone other than Rob. It was a SC group person who after landing got out and unloaded a pistol in the air, Raghead style.” Rob will be pleased to discover he off the suspect list. When you consider my involvement it seems like I would have heard about this before now. When did this happen? Who was the caretaker? When was this brought to your attention?

“Raghead style” Do you thing this bigoted reference adds credibility to your post, or is this your way of associating supercub.org members with terrorists? Apparently you are attempting to foster some sort of toxic relationship between BCP and scorg. If your perception is that we are not alike and that we do not enjoy a cooperative, supportive and mutually respectful relationship, your perception is off. If you think it is ok to publish uninformed fabricated stories on a public forum I’d say you are in the minority.

Please get back to me with the details so I can check it out further. Regards, Dave

AvidFlyer wrote:Wow this thread got interesting in a hurry. I grew up in Idaho and now live in California not by choice (USAF) Everytime I go home there is less and less access to the places I grew up 4-wheeling and riding dirt bikes. I agree we need to be respectful but as others have hinted it really doesn't matter in the end. I am taking my entire years vacation, leaving my wife and kids at home for 10 days, spending hundreds of dollars in fuel to get to this fly-in, and have been chomping at the bit for the past 364 days to get back to JC. I'm not doing all of that to sit on the edge of the rwy and wish I was at Mile Hi. I'll leave it at that

Sorry Joey: you have been to Mile High and your landing permit has been denied. On top of that the Avid sounds like an industrial sized weed whacker. Mile High is in the wilderness area. The sound of a weed whacker will bring the FS running.

You say your from California.....I'll just leave it at that.

No Rob I said I was from Idaho and being forced to live in California I guess I already do have my Mile Hi T-shirt... Actually I was thinking of skipping the Big 4 this year just for this reason. I am planning on doing most of my flying on the Salmon this year. I have a friend staying in Dixie Town I need to swing by to say hello to also.

Joey, I'm up for a trip to Dixie, with a stop at Warren on the way there or back, I don't feel any burning need to hit the big 4. I can do them anytime I have a day to kill....I mostly attend to BS and for the Sat. night feed!.

Hell boys, come on up to where I live. All the strips we used to land on are growing shut. No one left around here can bank roll the gas. About all we see is the occasional air taxi float plane hauling the government out to research something that no one can afford to go see anyway.

.......those who choose to discharge firearms in a closed area”.

Closed? Closed to what? Shooting? Did I miss a sign somewhere? Is it? Who knew?
It wasn't me, but it could have been-because I had NO idea/concept/consideration/clue that way out there in the middle of NOWHERE......

FS employees are individuals. A single ranger who voices her opinion while sequestered in one of the busiest strips in the BC doesn't really reflect on the larger policy issues.

True? But the tainted reports going up the chain to the policy/decision makers DO have an affect.(they also have conferences and such where the 'believers' sew the seeds of their religion). And I believe we all know this attitude in the FS is more common than rare. And the FS promotes from the ranks of these 'low level' employees that believe/espouse/promote this doctrine..... (it IS a religion to some of them).
This does NOT bode well for the future.
We few pilots NEED to become MORE (very) politically ACTIVE!


Can't our beliefs become a 'religion', too?
lc

Lets not argue amongst ourselves, it certainly does our cause no favor. I believe our opposition finds this thread quite humorous.

There are many good ways to help the cause besides bickering on the internet, I suggest we choose one of those routes. In the recent past, BCP members have assisted in some great causes that we can be proud of (Minam airlift and Chicken Strip are a few). Both Zane and I would like to create unity among our members and the flying community, not division.

I plan to save my many questions and concerns for the IAA/RAF JC presentation. These people are working hard for us and are our channel to agencies at the federal, state, and local levels.

Joey/Tom, count me in for a Dixie flight, sounds like a great time. I too have little interest in hitting the BC4 this year, there's a lot of other neat places I'd like to visit.

172heavy wrote:There is another point to be made here, as BC airstrips in other states are getting closed, the air traffic load increases in areas that still support aviation. I fly to Idaho as do others, because most of our air camping spots have been shut down, leaving the northern states as our only source of recreation, thus increasing their air traffic load, the (forest purists) want it ALL for themselves and have no interest, tolerance or desire in sharing with others that want to recreate there, there is a list, it’s not just us, in doing so increased aircraft use load in states that support aviation. I believe that there is a definite cause and effect that can be directly linked to airstrip closures in other states. Perhaps if there was air camping in California some would be air camping there, thus reducing the number of aircraft in Idaho.
No doubt that we can lighten our impact to some degree, and we should if possible, but the fact remains that the fewer recreational air strips that there are, the more traffic the remaining ones will get, perhaps a (forest purist) might read this and understand that they are responsible for creating this scenario through their successes in closing airstrips in other areas, what else could have happened? It’s as simple as this, open up airstrips in other states and decrease the load on the ones in use. For all that haven’t yet, I encourage you to join the RAF, I believe it’s our best avenue for a common voice and influence in government.

I've been watching this thread since it started (been working hard on the road ) and I've been chomping at the bit to say something.

172Heavy and others that have the same thoughts. I think that's part of the plan for the airplane hatters. Close off other airstrips in other states and funnel all that traffic to Idaho (or other still open strips) to the point that the traffic is too much for these small strips to handle. Then bam, the hatters (anti-aircraft groups) have all the ammo they need to finish closing off ALL back-country type strips in the forest's and other area's that may get overpopulated. Makes sense to me

I totally want (and will continue) to respect everybody's experience in the back-country and anywhere else noise may be of concern to others. But, I sure would like the same respect back for my enjoyment of the outdoors the way I want to legally do so. I strongly believe area's shouldn't be shut down just because somebody or some group isn't happy. If the controlling agency of said area is going to close down to aircraft or any other type of vehicle, then it should be shut down to ALL persons and any type of vehicles (including emergency, BLM, FS, maintenance vehicles, EVAC, etc, etc,..... period!!

And I'm with LC about there could be "tainted" reports going up the command chain. What's stopping an FS employee or ranger from making false reports about how many aircraft come into an airstrip each month when they are about the only person working a station at whatever airstrip?? Heck, they can be reporting 100 aircraft when in fact, only about half that really flew in and out

I'm starting to think like some of you others. Keep it low profile as much as you can and tread lightly. And about the firearm thing. Sheesh..... It's Idaho, man. Get over it. People shoot and hunt on the border of city limit's where I live just northwest of Boise.

Another thing too. None of my business how you want to show the world or your friends your flying videos. But, I would strongly recommend not show flying low over running wild horses or other wildlife. I know for a fact that there are BLM people watching this forum on a regular basis and they frown upon people "hazing" wildlife. We all have our own definitions of legally flying low, but the BLM don't give a crap what we may think is right or wrong. Trust me on this one. You can be 500' agl or above, two miles out and still cause horses to run. The BLM girl I talked to still considered that "hazing" I'm not kidding you. Here is her exact quote

Any altitude and distance that causes wildlife including wildhorses to run, is considered hazing and may be illegal

. Of coarse, the lower and closer you are, the easier for them to point the finger at you. Sorry, I can be at least 500' AGL across the Owyhee desert from Boise to northern NV and be 100% LEGAL!!

Anyway, I'm just ranting off into too many directions here

There are too many cuts and brookies to in the Cold Meadows area, and too many places I haven't been to in decades to go to the Big Creek furnace this year anyway. I'll may only stop for a visit at Taylor for a bit.

58Skylane wrote:Another thing too. None of my business how you want to show the world or your friends your flying videos. But, I would strongly recommend not show flying low over running wild horses or other wildlife. I know for a fact that there are BLM people watching this forum on a regular basis and they frown upon people "hazing" wildlife. We all have our own definitions of legally flying low, but the BLM don't give a crap what we may think is right or wrong. Trust me on this one. You can be 500' agl or above, two miles out and still cause horses to run. The BLM girl I talked to still considered that "hazing" I'm not kidding you. Here is her exact quote

Any altitude and distance that causes wildlife including wildhorses to run, is considered hazing and may be illegal

. Of coarse, the lower and closer you are, the easier for them to point the finger at you. Sorry, I can be at least 500' AGL across the Owyhee desert from Boise to northern NV and be 100% LEGAL!!

If she thinks that is hazing, I'd love to hear what she thinks about this! Looks like a great time to me!

http://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=8593

I was sitting here and had a little chuckle thinking how some of have been chastised for bagging a strip and not staying there long enough. But it was said the companies hauling hunters and fishermen in are good because they know how to get in and out. huh? Just what we need a bunch of rich city boys cluttering up my aerial motocross track. sheesh.

Then the unloading the pistol into the air like a raghead. No self respecting raghead would use less than a AK47

I didn't read anyone thinking my ideas were good on how to lower our impact while going out in groups. I think I know what that means.

I'm with Tom Friday and Saturday for me are to socialize and Monday thru Thursday are my fly days.

The gun thing really almost makes me laugh out loud. I grew up watching westerns on TV, thats America to me. What law in broken shooting a gun at JC. Where I live the spreads are 2 -200 acres we all shoot in our back yards and we are 22 miles east of Portland, Or. Next time your in Yellow Pine look at the ceiling in the restaurant at all the bullet holes, some are signed by the shooters.

G'Day

OregonMaule wrote: But it was said the companies hauling hunters and fishermen in are good because they know how to get in and out.

I said that.

The point was that the taxis do things differently for economic and impact reasons- they don't fly in formation and circle for 20 minutes overhead Cabin Creek before landing, they dial down the prop to save gas, and they they don't take off and then come back for a low approach for the camera. A few outlier rec fliers do.

The taxi pilots have less of an impact than the small minority of rec traffic folks left that still need reminding.

Your suggestions were fine. As far as 'sensitive non-aviation users', I think having a dozen BCP'ers descend on Soldier Bar would be for some like the Rainbow Family having a naked flash mob outside the John Bircher Society's headquarters. It might be legal, but the locals won't like it, and the Rainbow Family wouldn't be as welcome the next time around.

I'm feeling uncertain as to what I should do after reading through all of these. I'm feeling sad, guilty, angry....a little confused.

I guess I will simply interpret the IAA letter as best I can, heeding its specific recommendations (multiple landings, large groups, occasional use). I get up to Idaho once a year, so for me personally, that's not an issue. But as it's during the big fly in, it is. I think then we just defer to the key phrase (which is what many have said) "Moderation is key". I think most can figure that out, and hopefully just employ a little more care. Some Mile Hi is better than no Mile Hi.

I think I'll leave out the video this year.

So I've always wanted to camp at Mile Hi for a night, get up at sunrise, have some coffee and a granola bar and go flying. That's probably not a good idea? Or?