JOHNSON CREEK OR BUST!!!

See you dudes in a brace of weeks or so...with my 180 HP and little 850's.

May your skies be clear and a tail wind at your 6 O'Clock.
HC

Just look at all that traffic!

Have looked at this web cam almost everyday. Have only seen 2 planes there in the past 3 weeks. Looks like its getting alot of use...

Here it is, almost 10am in Idaho on Sunday and not a sole...Mile High must have a traffic jam in the sky with everyone holding and waiting for their turn to get in and land.

http://www.ruralnetwork.net/~yellowpinecm/

AKT

Wow, I took the day off from checking the BCP website and missed this verbal storm.

I happen to live in the area where a lot of the Federal and State "land managers" also live and I get to socialize and interact with them on a personal level. So like James " I hear things" that are not the party line of the agencies. If you would like details see me at JC.

I thinks James has hit the nail right on the the head when he states that monitoring ourselves is critical especially this year. Any talk about what our "rights" are is ignoring the facts of what has actually happened in recent history. Specifically group activity at the Big Creek 4 should be a concern.

If you think it is a "right" to be able to use the Idaho backcountry as you see fit I suggest you try and find a picnic table or campfire ring at Moose Creek. Both were used by backcountry pilots for decades until the Ranger decided they were incompatible with her view of a wilderness area. Despite numerious lobbying efforts by individuals and the Idaho Aviation Association they are gone--probably forever. Our opportunity to be " Backcountry Pilots" in Idaho is fragile at best.

Matt I agree with you that it might be helpful to try and get a speaker at JC. Maybe the current Pres of the Idaho Aviation Association. Maybe we could entice him to speak by offering to deliver a portion of the proceeds from the raffle.

Sorry, I feel this type of event-one that is all about the 'airplanes' -belongs a a normal airport. I personally see JC primarily as a place to enjoy 'the location'. I, even as a pilot, see that behavior as 'abuse of our privileges', and if that type of thing continues, is likely to be some of the evidence that is used against us.

Just sayn'...
lc

I agree. I have heard the same sentiment from a past caretaker at Johnson Creek. The SC group gets commercial with demo flights and companies plying their goods. Idaho did not intend their BC strips to be used in this manner. The caretaker also expressed the lack of respect for those who choose to discharge firearms in a closed area. And he mentioned someone other than Rob. It was a SC group person who after landing got out and unloaded a pistol in the air, Raghead style.

I live on the boarder of the wilderness and live in a town where outfitters are the largest economic engine. Something like 50K boaters come to the Middle and Main Salmon Ricers to experience the Wilderness.

The same overuse problem exists with Jet boat users on the Main. Seems everybody has a boat. I see a permit system coming into play for jet boats. Rafters are already heavily regulated. Are backcountry planes next?

SuperMaule and LittleCub, you guys are my friends and I respect your opinions. But I see things
different. I am evolving so maybe I will come around to your way of seeing things but I am not there
yet.

I have been a rabid/avid back country off road gear head, wheeler, dirt biker my whole life. I have also been a hiker, skier, boater, rafter, kayaker, fished, shoot varmints, mountain climber and mountain biker. I have probably spent as much time in the wild as most.

This is where I differ. At 54 years old I remember the birth of the save the planet movement as I'm sure you too do. I have been a dues paying member of many many many lobbing groups who were going to save my way of recreation. Some made a difference, some made the groups a lot of money and none have saved my way of recreation. All they have done is slowed down the rate of progress of my enemy's. [thinking some really evil twisted shit i won't post]

If we all flew into the Idaho back country sat on the ground and left on Sunday they will still want us banned. I really believe in my heart that someday when I am gone airplanes will be banned from the Church or be under a permit system like rafters.

Over the years I know of traps that have been set to hurt or kill dirt bikers. Now we got people, most likely rafters putting boulders on airstrips that are legal to be on. WTF! I have NEVER known anyone from my point of view trying to hurt a enviro nazi.

I am one of the guys who likes to fly to breakfast, bag a few strips [I shut down and commune], have lunch, go for a hike and party around the camp fire. I make no apologies for flying. If your deal is to fly in and commune with nature good for you. What I love involves converting gas into noise and speed, sorry.

I figure I don't have that many more years of hard flying and I don't plan on appeasing eco nazi's, it doesn't work anyway.

I will not do landing practice in the back country and I will only do the BC4 once a year if that.



G'Day

ha ha ha ha ha you know the world is coming to an end when people are offended if you shoot a gun in Idaho.

This thread has just about got me convinced to bag the whole fucking thing. I can come over Monday thru Thursday and do what I want and not have to worry about where I land, shoot, piss or pass out.

Sounds like some here should go to San Francisco.

Peace out man

While I agree self-restraint and moderation will help in the short term, in my opinion the key to keeping the backcountry open to aircraft for the long term is political influence. If the conservation organizations mentioned earlier achieve their ultimate goal of blocking or significantly limiting our access, it'll result from their demonstrated ability to convince state and federal legislators that doing so is in their polical self-interest. The most effective way for us to combat this is to match our opponents' organizational abilities and lobbying efforts. One way to accomplish this would be for ALL individuals and organizations that support backcountry flying -- from BCP to the McCall Chamber of Commerce -- to come together and create a single entity to collect our money, promote our activities, and lobby for our interests.

I thought that is what the IAA was all about

I was thinking more in terms of a multi-state/regional organization with the ability to exert influence over federal legislators from more than one state, much like the way the Sierra Club does it.

Simple courtesies and awareness, coupled by advocacy, will go a long ways to making sure these strips will be around for a long time after we are gone.

This might be obvious to some of us more than folks who discover them for the first time; many genuinely get the impression they are a motocross course for airplanes. This is a minority. They are the folks who will do the most to drive negative public comment and management to revise policy. The same thing happens for other users- 4wd and ATV'ers on bad behavior creating impacts and conflicts in a few places where previous generations of users had none. It's a game changer, and it happens quickly.

Consider the commercial traffic in and out of the strips- Air Star routes, rafters, hunters, etc.- yes, it can be busy for a couple of weeks every year. But overall, you would barely notice all this traffic. Why? They know what they are doing. Turning down props (saves gas and noise), rapid arrival (ditto), and they *all* are quick to haul out trash and keep a low profile. It's easy. MOST of us already do some of these things. Some ...well, let's just say a few tips might be helpful.

Aviation has been a utility back there for 2/3 of a century. It's not moderate use of the strips as access points to the wilderness that makes some other users and forest managers cringe. It's the use of the strips as an aerial motocross zoo, and the only practical way to regulate it (if they choose to) will fundamentally affect those of us that use them as an interior trail head as they were intended. Just read the public comments over the years, and talk to old timers about how and why the strips were made initially and preserved in the wilderness designation. It's pretty explicit- it's not something dreamed up by some completely fictitious 'radical tree-hugging nazi environmentalists'.

I have received confirmation from John McKenna, the RAF President, that a member from the RAF will attend the fly-in on Saturday (perhaps John himself). I am also in contact with a few people from the IAA, and I know that someone will be attending, but I need to confirm this.

We will have a presentation from the RAF/IAA on Saturday (6/23) at 6:30pm (pot-luck will start at approx 5:45pm) to understand who the IAA/RAF are, what they currently are doing, how we as backcountry pilots can help, and what the future holds. This will be a great time to ask questions in a casual, face to face environment concerning some of these current issues.

The crazy thing here that many DO NOT KNOW, is that much of the companies you frequent (REI, Whole foods, Trader Joes) just to name a few, pay big money to the organizations that are trying to shut down and save these places for the WILD designation. Do you know of anyone paying into the carbon off set programs? Thats another big one.

Before long the greenies will have everything shut down and designated as wilderness. Honestly, enjoy it while you can. Your crazy to think it wont happen. Its just a matter of time.

Noisy airplane fliers, loud and obnoxious hunters, drunken rafters, Redneck Jeepers...Heck, even the hippies have loud drums...

Unfortunately, the people fighting to close everything have nothing but time and money on their side.

My example is like Robert Redford trying to save the last 3 caribou in ANWAR if we dig. If someone would actually go there, they would see that the herd has actually flourished since the pipeline went in. Just a thought

Any way to quiet this river down I can't hear at 1:19 that's what is said. You think they can hear us or care?

I want to see proof in writing that the BC4 is emergency only please. None of this I heard it from a friend who heard it from USFS. Lets see the documents please.

Here is mine: From FS USDA
Frank Church–River of No Return Wilderness – FEIS
SUMMARY
♦ Management of Dewey Moore, Mile-Hi, Simonds, and Vines aircraft landing strips for public and/or emergency use;

Proposed Action
As a result of the analysis and public comment associated with the DEIS and SDEIS, the Proposed Action has evolved to encompass the following actions, which were described in the SDEIS Alternative 6:
♦ Dewey Moore, Mile High, Simonds, and Vines, aircraft landing strips would be managed for use as public landing strips, which will require Forest Service maintenance actions at these landing strips in the future.

Alternative D: Preferred Alternative
Alternative D includes the maintenance strategy for Dewey Moore, Mile-Hi, Simonds, and Vines landing strips

Alternative E: Proposed Action
Alternative E is SDEIS Alternative 6, which was designed to reflect public comment received on the DEIS. Under this alternative, the four landing strips would be maintained for use as public landing strips.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOC ... 300777.pdf

Lets see some proof that I can only fly to some freaking trail head and eat granola, hike and hug trees for week. I do love granola with my organic yogurt.

It would be just like this bunch to print all this stuff then one day go we changed our minds now get out.

Like many of the members on here, I have spent an inordinate amount of time fighting the cancer caused by " 'completely fictitious 'radical tree-hugging nazi environmentalists'." Believe me, they are not fictitious. They do not care what was the original intent for back country strips. They do not care how few people use them nor do they care how gently we tread. They do not care what we plan on doing after we land. All that matters is that an internal combustion engine is in use. And that is something they can not live with. There is no shortage of clueless young idealistic idiots willing to put your life in danger and willing to break laws to put a stop to your enjoyment of public lands. It has absolutely nothing to do with aviation motocross, strip bagging, prop pitch, or fat tires. It is an intense hatred of all things motorized. (except for their Subaru's of course)
You can not reason with unreasonable people.

S-12Flyer wrote:Like many of the members on here, I have spent an inordinate amount of time fighting the cancer caused by " 'completely fictitious 'radical tree-hugging nazi environmentalists'." Believe me, they are not fictitious. They do not care what was the original intent for back country strips. They do not care how few people use them nor do they care how gently we tread. They do not care what we plan on doing after we land. All that matters is that an internal combustion engine is in use. And that is something they can not live with. There is no shortage of clueless young idealistic idiots willing to put your life in danger and willing to break laws to put a stop to your enjoyment of public lands. It has absolutely nothing to do with aviation motocross, strip bagging, prop pitch, or fat tires. It is an intense hatred of all things motorized. (except for their Subaru's of course)
You can not reason with unreasonable people.

S12, I agree with you 100% that these people do not care how we use the airstrips, they just want them closed. BUT, the USFS does. And the USFS is the controlling agency, so we need to do what we can to maintain a good relationship with the USFS.

Rob, why don't you email/call the IAA on your information search. I too would be interested in what the facts are on these BC4 airstrips, not just hearsay.

"Except for their Subaru's"
Now that is spot on accurate AND funny as hell!
The Frank Church is about. 01% of my flying choices, but I really feel for you guys who count on being able to plan your vacations around going there, and hope that it continues as is. Taking a number like the rafters do, I see that as a real possibility.

aktahoe1 wrote:My example is like Robert Redford trying to save the last 3 caribou in ANWAR if we dig. If someone would actually go there, they would see that the herd has actually flourished since the pipeline went in. Just a thought

Spent a lot of time on the north slope observing caribou, have you? Just a thought.

The biggest tool that the "environmentalists" have used in past is to get thousands of their members to spam an agency during a public input process with thousands of identical "cut and paste" responses. Fortunately, that no longer works well in these processes.

YOUR best tool is to write to the agency and to your elected representatives with carefully thought out and intelligent comments in support of your position, whatever that may be. This is precisely what kept the Missouri Breaks airstrips open, when BLM was being inundated with spam from back east (and probably some from Kalifornia).

No doubt the single worst "threat" to these strips today is the big, 100 plus airplane, fly ins. As noted earlier, there aren't many of those, and they're short. But they get people's attention.

I think all the Idaho Aviation Association and James were trying to get across is that by maintaining as low a profile as possible it makes us all a less visible target. And, anonymity is the best way to avoid attacks, regardless of your activity.

MTV

Rob and S-12....you're spot on.

I am glad to see the increased coverage/support that the IAA/RAF is getting from AOPA.

One note on what Matt noted. It would be good to read the letter on JC prior to coming, especially if it is your first time there or if you haven't been there much or recently. I believe it was posted further in that link he posted. Otherwise, search for it. In know it is on here. I'll see if I can find it and repost it.

Here it is. I'll post it over on the fly-in thread too.

July 13, 2010

To All Fellow Aviators,

It is our responsibility as pilots to ensure an orderly and safe flow of traffic in and around Idaho’s backcountry airports. The FAA Airport/Facility Directory, the Idaho Division of Aeronautics Airport/Facility Directory, and Galen Hanselman’s Fly Idaho are three sources that provide the most current approach and departure recommendations to the most popular airports. Information passed by word of mouth or over the Internet, although well-intended, can skew these recommendations and inadvertently mislead others into attempting maneuvers beyond their abilities or better judgment.

Recent events indicate that misinformation about the traffic pattern at Johnson Creek is being circulated, creating a potentially unsafe situation. The following is meant to correct any misunderstandings as to what patterns are flown, when, and why.

It was Emma Bryant’s graciousness and generosity that provided the land on which Johnson Creek now sits. The Bryant family, whose ranch house sits on the hill at the south end of the airport, fully supports all flying activities at Johnson Creek. However, they have three requests of those flying into Johnson Creek: First, under normal conditions, make all landings to the south and all takeoffs to the north.

Second, landings to the north are permitted whenever the pilot decides, based on weather and not convenience, that a landing to the south is unsafe or unwarranted. However, offset your base leg to the south and final approach to the east to avoid overflying the house.

Lastly, takeoffs to the south are strongly discouraged: your takeoff path is directly toward the ranch house; you are taking off toward rising terrain; and a marginally performing aircraft, struggling to stay airborne, flying passed their living room window is very disconcerting. In the recent past, high density altitudes led to three accidents and seven fatalities, each aircraft failing to out climb the rising terrain to the south. Unfavorable southerly winds generally occur in the late afternoon when aircraft should remain on the ground until more favorable conditions prevail.

As a courtesy to the Bryant family, we should honor their requests.

One last item: noise is our greatest enemy in the backcountry. Most of the airplanes we fly are noisy and sound travels great distances in the canyons. That sound amplifies tremendously when we fly in formation, make low passes, and multiple takeoffs and landings. Johnson Creek and the nearby village of Yellow Pine represent a cross-section of the local population and those that come to enjoy our pristine mountain beauty. Not all of them are pilots, yet all of us share the same purpose and must find a way to enjoy our pursuits without treading on those of our neighbors.

Please enjoy our airports, but also be considerate.

Sincerely,

Frank W. Lester, Jr.
Safety/Education Coordinator
Idaho Division of Aeronautics