So you think that if every state required 10% ethanol in all auto gas there would be a demand high enough that EAA or Peterson would spend the time and money to get the STC's

Tim

I think it will require a timing change, and a larger main jet to satisfy the required higher fuel flow, therefore I doubt the FAA will Bless it.

The Auto STC now just requires a sticker and log book entry which is much easier to get blessed.

Here is an interesting read from the Petroleum Institute Note the FAA and EAA statements from 2006

1826 Samuel Morey developed an engine that ran on ethanol and turpentine.


1850's During the Civil War, a liquor tax was placed on ethanol whisky, also called Moonshine, to raise money for the war.


1876 Otto Cycle was the first combustion engine designed to use alcohol and gasoline.


1896 Henry Ford built his first automobile, the quadricycle, to run on pure ethanol.


1920's Standard Oil began adding ethanol to gasoline to increase octane and reduce engine knocking.


1908 The first Ford Motor Company automobile, Henry Ford's Model T, was designed to use corn alcohol, called ethanol. The Model T ran on (ethanol) alcohol, fuel or a combination of the two fuels.


1940's First U.S. fuel ethanol plant built. The U.S. Army built and operated an ethanol plant in Omaha, Nebraska, to produce fuel for the army and to provide ethanol for regional fuel blending.


1940's to late 1970's Virtually no commercial fuel ethanol was sold to the general public in the U.S. - due to the low price of gasoline fuel.


1975 U.S. begins to phase out lead in gasoline. MTBE eventually replaced lead.
Note: Later, between 2004 to 2006, MTBE banned in almost all states, due to groundwater contamination and health risks.


1980's Oxygenates added to gasoline included MTBE (Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether - made from natural gas and petroleum) and ETBE (Ethyl Tertiary Butyl Ether - made from ethanol and petroleum).


1988 Denver, Colorado, mandated ethanol oxygenates fuels for winter use to control carbon monoxide emissions. Other cities followed.


1990 Clean Air Act Amendments - Mandated the winter use of oxygenated fuels in 39 major carbon monoxide non-attainment areas (based on EPA emissions standards for carbon dioxide not being met) and required year-round use of oxygenates in 9 severe ozone non-attainment areas in 1995.


The Clean Air Act (1990) and Alternative Motor Fuels Act (1988) contain provisions for mandating oxygenated fuel (RFG =Ethanol and MTBE). Requirements set for 2 types of clean-burning gasoline, RFG Federal Reformulated Gasoline and Wintertime Oxygenated Fuel.


1995 The EPA began requiring the use of reformulated gasoline year round in metropolitan areas with the most smog.


1995 EPA issues public bulletin warning for Boaters called...


1999 Some states began to pass bans on MTBE because traces of it were showing up in drinking water sources.


2003 California began switching from MTBE to ethanol to make reformulated gasoline.


California was the first state to completely ban MTBE, effective January 1, 2004.


Late 1990's to Present Major U.S. auto manufacturers begin selling Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFV's), that can run on up to 85% ethanol. About 5 million FFV's/AFV's are on the road today.


2003 to Present Almost ALL states have followed California's lead, banning MTBE, (a few states still have lawsuits pending with the EPA for exemption from MTBE ban), resulting in MTBE being replaced by ethanol nationwide.


2005 Under the Energy Policy Act of 2005, the EPA is responsible for regulations to ensure that gasoline sold in the United States contains a minimum volume of renewable fuel (ethanol is a renewable fuel).


April 2005 Bombardier Recreational Products (BRP - OMC) is the first marine manufacturer to receive the EPA "Clean Air Excellence Award", for their newly re-designed outboard engine called the Evinrude ETec.


Spring 2006 Many outboard owners report marine damage and severe engine failure from use of ethanol blend fuels - Investigations reveal gas they used had ethanol content of 15-40%, well about the safe legal limit. See 1995 EPA warnings to boat owners.


September 7, 2006 The Renewable Fuel Standard Program (RFS) is signed. This national renewable fuel program is designed to encourage the blending of renewable fuels (ethanol) into our nation's motor vehicle fuel. The nationwide Renewable Fuels Standard (RFS), will double the use of ethanol and biodiesel by 2012.

ETHANOL USE - HISTORY BY INDUSTRY

AIRCRAFT:
FAA banned ethanol a long time ago (around the 1960's) for use in aircraft. - 2006 FAA and EEA issues statements to the public, warning never to use ethanol in aircraft, since ethanol blends are now widespread at (non-aircraft) gas pumps.


MARINE:
Late 1990's - Present: Marine Manufacturers, who once advised against using alcohol in marine engines, now change the instructions in owner's manuals to allow 10% fuel blends in most marine engines.
Modifications were made to most outboard engines 1990's - present to allow the safe use of ethanol 10%.


FARMING EQUIPMENT
Continues to be exempt from ethanol fuel use, government issued, due to known damage it can cause their engines, expected to last 40-50 years.

Read about important engine precautions, when using ethanol blend E10 fuels.

Over 99 percent of the ethanol produced in the United States is mixed with gasoline to make E-10, the gas found at most public fuel pumps.

About 50 percent of America's gasoline now includes some amount of ethanol.
Source: American Petroleum Institute (API) http://www.api.org/Newsroom/cavaney-renewable.cfm

I could only hope that they too end up with a typo in the regulations so I could shine it.

E10(10% ethanol)has 3.5 oxygen.Octane rating of 87 unleaded is raised 89 when blended with 10% ethanol. AGE 85(88% ethanol) use requires a bigger jet and if 100LL is put in the tank, the mixture is leaned by pulling the control in the cockpit(sorta like leaning at high altitude airports). That 3.5% oxygen that is premixed in the fuel is why ethanol blends burn cleaner but is the engine really going to know the difference if it's getting 96.5 vs. 100 fuel? I talked to Petersen last spring and had a National Corn Growers board member friend of mine get in contact with him. Petersen thought it would take a $1,000,000 in testing to satisfy the FAA. My Corn Grower friend contacted EPIC(ethanol promotion information council) for funding since that is what they do-----they had no interest in little airplanes.

A large part of my family is in the farming industry, and they're careful to ensure that most of their production (or lack thereof) is highly subsidized.
One of my uncles brags about how much taxpayer supplied cash he ends up with every year, for the least possible effort. Heck, he has a guy working for him just to ensure that he gets the greatest possible subsidies for everything he does (or doesn't do).
Now, he produces a lot of corn, most of which ends up at a local ethanol plant, and prices for food corn are up as well, due in part to the fact that so much is flowing to the fuel plants. Never mind that it requires more energy to harvest and process the stuff than it provides as fuel, it's a great welfare program for fat-cat farmers.

Sugar cane, on the other hand.... would be a great source, but market forces have been twisted all to hell for political reasons (so what else is new, right?).

Back on topic... isn't there a push to allow premium unleaded fuel to remain uncut with alcohol? After all, it's sold in much smaller amounts than the low-test stuff.

velojym wrote

isn't there a push to allow premium unleaded fuel to remain uncut with alcohol?

I think you're kinda right a lot of places but Minnesota puts it in everything. A few pumps in Minnesota have premium pumps for offroad and snowmobiles but you're not supposed to put in the car. Also, I hadn't heard about getting more subsidies if I hired some help-----maybe I should hire a few guys to sit around and do nothing with me.

If and or when I can't get straight gas anymore, I'm burning E10. I think there are hundreds that already are. Most people that I have met that burn Mogas, don't test for alcohol. Some didn't even know you were supposed to. I've even been told that a little Marvel Mystery oil will take care of the alcohol. I guess the MMO is simply miraclous stuff

Cessna says absolutly no way. Sure that is for liability reasons. Also sure that it works just fine but the paperwork overload will probably keep the kabosh on it.

Lets keep the subsidies out of this post lest we piss sombody off and get this topic thrown into the hot air pile.

Tim

I think what it amounts to isn't paperwork. I think it's money invested and the return you might get. I wouldn't be too surprised if it would take hundred's of thousands to prove 10% ethanol wouldn't hurt anything. I don't think you would ever sell enough STC's to break even.
Same reason we are flying behind our grandfathers engines. I'm sure the cost of certification is why these Diesels will be so expensive. I wonder what the actual manufacturing costs are.
The taxpayer bore the brunt of certification of most things under the military. Lubricants, fuel, hardware, almost everything was Mil-spec. Well the military left recips and what we fly long ago, which means GA pretty much is self supporting now.

velojym wrote:isn't there a push to allow premium unleaded fuel to remain uncut with alcohol?

I've heard that too. Unfortunately, Washington doesn't seem to require labeling of the pumps anymore so I don't know. I was searching for "ethanol free" fuel earlier and came across some postings from marine sites (boats, not our boys).

Ethanol has been wreaking havoc on boat motors too and especially bad if they had a partial gas tank with MTBE in it. It doesn't mix well and gums things up.

Sounds like it's added at the distribution station and the accuracy of ethanol content is suspect.

Fuel sold at Marine places may be ethanol free, though. The comment was a lot of people were buying gas at local stations rather than the marina to save 50 cents a gallon.

If the MM oil helps, that's great. I'm adding to my tanks anyway. We've been adding this stuff for over 3 months now and I've yet needed to burn the lead off the plugs during a runup.

FACT: Alcohol attacks natural rubber.

FACT: There are MANY natural rubber parts in virtually EVERY airplane.

CONJECTURE: Those two facts are probably the primary reason that any gas with ethanol is prohibited from use in aircraft.

There are seals in your carburetor that don't like ethanol, even in small amounts. Trust me, I've tested this concept.

Sure, you can pour ethanol in there, and it runs just fine. A hundred hours later, or fifty, or?? The engine starts running funny, or maybe not running at all. Oh, yeah, and maybe you're over a big ass swamp when that happens.

Sue the GD govmint for allowing you to be stupid.

Sue the GD oil companies for boosting octane levels with ethanol, cause they can't use lead.

Etc.

MTV

The MM comment was made to me by a couple of people, but I have no faith that it has any effect on ethanol at all. MM of course isn't approved for aircraft either, but I think it has been widely used for a long time.
MTV your probably right, but then there should have been many failures by now, just like the outboard guy's have had. I think it is the 2 stroke outboards anyway.
Oh and I don't think anybody said anything about sueing anybody. I can say that I have never sued or been sued by anyone.
Has anyone heard of any accidents due to ethanol in fuel? At least in low concentrations.

I asked my Mom a couple of years ago if she wanted to get daring with her Lawnboy 2 cycle lawnmower by mixing 10% ethanol with the oil. She says "what do you mean, I've been using 10% since it was new". The thing is at least 10 years old and hopefully I mowed the lawn for the last time this year last week.I'm not very good about running the tank dry at the end of the season and the half full jug of fuel sits in the garage until next season. It might not start next season but last May it started on the first pull.

I was going to ask if anyone could explain, in laymen s terms ( or just plain dumb ass terms) why it is that my plane will fall out of the sky if I burn car gas with alcohol in it, yet I can drive my wifes car from here to Kalamazoo fueling at any xyz brand, circle k, j, or whatever gas station, and it doesn't seem to fall off the road? But.... as usual I am tardy and MTV has cleared it all up....

FACT... MY Peterson's STC Dated 12,12,1983 says nothing of alcohol, it's testing, or it's presence, nor does the 337, or any of the related papers, consequently until a couple years ago my fat dumb and happy ass never tested a drop and (did I mention cheap ass?) always burned the cheapest...
FACT... MY engine is approaching its TBO, runs groovy, and has had no more than preventative maintenance. ( oil, plugs, filter )
FACT ... I have not fallen out of the sky... yet!
FACT ... I do run this engine several hundred hours a year
FACT .... your mileage may vary
FACT .... Mogas stinks, and will stink more if you do not fly often, in which case it will turn to Movarnish, rendering your crab useless...
FACT .... Avgas will stay in your tank for months on end and not turn into Av varnish... This makes it better for lawn mowers and weed eaters
I am not on the mogas band wagon... I could care less what anyone burns in their plane, for a period I was burning Av more, simply because of convenience. Now I am operating out of an Ag strip that only has diesel / jet ... so I will probably be back to Mo. I burn Mogas because the math is elementary, burn anything that is a buck a gallon cheaper and the savings will pay for the rebuild....
$1/gal. X 8 Gal./Hr X 2000 Hr. = $16K....

So... IS that it? is it really just the rubber? If so I would think that for a lot of planes an STC converting a few lines, seals, etc to modern day materials would not be that out of line... maybe not feasible for aircraft with complex fuel systems, and bladders etc... but come on, if people can STC bushwheels, big flaps, long wings, thrust line changes, turbine conversions and on and on.... is a little rubber really that out of line? Heck I would bet an enterprising individual could STC an alcohol ready line of carbs (just to cut out the guess work on seals) include all new fuel lines, do the flight testing etc..., and still not approach the $1Mill. mark....
STC owners are not magic, mystical, and often not of the rich and shameless category....( a quick talk with Atlee, and I love Mr. Dodge, will confirm ALL of the above) I'd bet if the price / availability of Avgas keeps going unchecked someone will approach the Mogas / alcohol issues...
any takers???

mtv wrote:FACT: Alcohol attacks natural rubber.

FACT: There are MANY natural rubber parts in virtually EVERY airplane.

I have a 182B that has had the bladders replaced in the last seven years. New carburetor seven years ago. Name anything in my plane that is natural rubber. In fact name anything period that is natural rubber in a plane or not. They don't even make rubbers out of rubber, not even the ones that go over your shoes.

Fact: Natural rubber even breaks down with any gasoline.

Tim

mr scout wrote:....1876 Otto Cycle was the first combustion engine designed to use alcohol and gasoline. .....

I worked at Bangor Submarine Base last year in a torpedo shop, and heard the guys talking about "auto fuel". Turns out it was really "otto fuel", exact composition not explained except that it was something special for torpedo's. Same stuff, ya think?

Eric

Tim,

As I noted, there are several natural rubber compound seals in most if not all carburetors, though I believe that many of these seals are gradually being replaced with synthetics. Nevertheless, without issuing an AD to REQUIRE EVERY carburetor to be rebuilt with new seals (note that there are a LOT of carburetors out there that have been plugging along for 60 years or so without ever having been overhauled...), the FAA cannot be assured that there is no natural rubber in the fuel system.

I owned a Super Cub (with a VERY old carb) and ran auto fuel in it mixed half and half with 100 LL for several years. I wound up replacing all the seals in that carb, and most in the fuel system, including a couple of hoses.

Your system MAY be rubber free, but don't bet for a moment that EVERY airplane's is.

Do airplanes regularly fall out of the sky due to auto fuel? I sure don't think so--mine didn't.

The question that was asked was WHY DOES THE FAA prohibit alcohol, and I tried to explain that--Note that this is NOT MY position.

But, it is a FACT that many aircraft fuel systems DO have some natural rubber in them, and ETOH will attack rubber. I've had it happen, and the result was an engine that ran REALLY rich until we opened up the carb, and every seal in the thing was the consistency of putty.

MTV

Eric,

Some of the older torpedos ran on plain alcohol fuels. I don't remember what type of alcohol, but it would do nasty things to the torpedoman who thought it was a satisfactory substitute for likker .

MTV

mtv wrote:Eric,

Some of the older torpedos ran on plain alcohol fuels. I don't remember what type of alcohol, but it would do nasty things to the torpedoman who thought it was a satisfactory substitute for likker .

MTV

Trust me on this. After the proper filtration is complete it can be mixed with any juice and it is quite good (depends on how long at sea). I leked it best with jolly oly orange or goofy grape. Remember these MTV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_Juice

Tim

Dang,

Yer right--I'd forgotten the bread thing to kill the Pink Lady.

Us ST's just kept some nice Jamaican rum in the Top Secret Coverword safe. Took less filtration... .

MTV